I Gore-Tex worth it?

[marshalolson]

So serious all the time?


Gore pro shell is super nice of course, but is way expensivo.

[Beyond]

Are Gore Tex patents expired?

[whyturn]

What trips me is the different grades and qualities. Arc, mAmmut, norrona are all high grade. But the Oakley stuff was paper thin???

[gregL]

Are Gore Tex patents expired?

Some of Gore's original patents for processes and machinery have expired, as they last for 20 or 14 years. They have a bunch of new ones, though.

[gregL]

What trips me is the different grades and qualities. Arc, mAmmut, norrona are all high grade. But the Oakley stuff was paper thin???

The SethMo stuff? I thought it felt just about the same as the fabric on my Arc'teryx Alpha LT . . .

[stuckathuntermtn]

The few experiences I've had with Oakley clothing has been that it's garbage. Which is why I kept it to few.
Because GoreTex is on the label doesn't automatically make it an awesome product, and conversely (right word?), just because it doesn't have GoreTex on the label doesn't mean it's a shitty product.
I tend not to get GoreTex pants because it's not worth it for me to spend $400 and up (if I even have it) on pants that will be confetti in a year or two. If they come out with a good pair of GoreTex ski pants that are lightly insulated, have good pockets, and vents for $200 I could see getting some. But somehow they always seem to sell out of Mediums at full retail. Also, I tend to look for wild colors in pants, but lately I'm just red and gray.

[Micol]

I think the Blister article is pretty good. I would add that the best method for determining what jacket is best for you is to listen to people who use them in conditions like you plan on using them (aerobic activity level i.e. skiing/riding) and are of the same body fat content. !! However, I hear a lot of "pros" say that a PU coated nylon with Dale's of Norway or Acrteryx ....fill in the blank kicks ass ! Well that is not exactly true. They might be drinking the coolaid of a paid spanser. Yes, it is true people will embelish and bullshit for money. I know of a guy who climbed Montblanc in some real crapper gear and trumpeted that shit to the moon. Just remember, most peaks were bagged before Gore was born. The man or the fabric.

I said body fat content earlier. Body fat is insulation. Those who have very low 4-5% get colder faster than someone with 20% unless the 4% is involved in high exertion aerobic activity. Hence, a shell will have no insulation (even 3Layer that is tricot instead of polyester interior) and requires bulky layering. A hybrid shell (e.g. like my jackets) that have either a fine (Antero) or thick (Shavano) polyester polar fleece layer can be warm and protect from the elements.

If you are 5% body fat or 10% or 14% you are going to benefit from the poly interior layer if you actually are in cold whether. If you are 20%+ you will benefit because you can use even less mid base layers so you dont look like the Michelin tire man.

And, lastly, 10,000/5,000 , 20,000/10,000 are all bullshit. There is no officiating governing body of fabric ratings (except for IDFL for down) so don't get all caught up with the parade. Even Arcteryx states in their jacket descriptions vague representations such as " guaranteed water proof" (see for your self).

You want to really know how water proof your garment is? Stand in a heavy downpour until you get wet (like I do). You want to know how much water vapor is displaced? Benchmark with a old school poncho and stick a hygrometer in your shirt pocket. Now put on a favorite jacket and do the same. You should see high moisture content ratings from underneath the poncho. You should see less of a reading under a water resistant or waterproof breathable jacket. If you don't, take a look at some of my jackets and drink my cool aid .

[Micol]

The few experiences I've had with Oakley clothing has been that it's garbage. Which is why I kept it to few.
Because GoreTex is on the label doesn't automatically make it an awesome product, and conversely (right word?), just because it doesn't have GoreTex on the label doesn't mean it's a shitty product.
I tend not to get GoreTex pants because it's not worth it for me to spend $400 and up (if I even have it) on pants that will be confetti in a year or two. If they come out with a good pair of GoreTex ski pants that are lightly insulated, have good pockets, and vents for $200 I could see getting some. But somehow they always seem to sell out of Mediums at full retail. Also, I tend to look for wild colors in pants, but lately I'm just red and gray.

Quite frankly I have heard many people reference such brands as Oakley, Orage, 696, and others as disposable garments. You can acquire them for under $200 and they either tear up , fall apart or don't work worth a damn out of the gate. You then buy a new one with the new sick screen-printed Ed Hardy type juxtaposition next year and win the voted mostly looks like a skittle award.

[Micol]

For the record, technical fabrics do cost a lot to acquire from the manufacturers. Let me tell you about some pricing. GE Energy makes eVent and ranges from $25-35 per yard. A jacket can take on average 2.5-3 yards to make. Polartec Neoshell is $30+. Gore-tex in the same ball park.

I buy these fabrics from brokers who buy up all of the quantities that don't pass the manufacturers dip pantone tests. In other-words a Brands's "designer" specs a certain color fabric for garment A, another for B, another for C and so on down the line. Say they are going to make 4,000 units of each. If B and E are not the exact shade, or there are any flaws found in the warp and weft threads in the weave these fabrics are shit canned and not purchased by the Brand.

The fabric manufacturer has to remake the fabric to the Brand's designer or quality control persons specifications. Enter the broker. The lifesaver of the Fabric manufacturer. They buy all of that turned down fabric. Enter brand's like me....I buy it up for less than the cost to the big brands. Most of the time I have all the fabric manufacturer's labeling and style numbers on the rolls. I know exactly what I am getting and I don't have to put my Gore-tex garment through the Gore-tex required "shower" performance test. This is how I can sell a premium garment for $200 range vs the $400 of big well know brands.

[marshalolson]

in terms of materials (all IMO, YMMV):

stretch triple layer - does not really matter brand IMO. all pretty good, more breathable and easy moving than true hardshell below. a little less long term rugged, and a little more likely to wet-out in very wet driving snow.

triple layer hardshell - gore xcr and all its knockoffs (h2no, intuitive, etc) all have similar overall traits, but there is a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses based on the PTFE thickness, porousness of PTFE, and the facing material. IMO buy the most bomber facing material, and make sure the piece has very good venting, or don't bother with this class.

new gen hardshell - pro shell, event, etc. lighter, more breathable than older triple layer materials, without sacrifice of waterproofing. generally more expensive too.




windproof fleece - gore windstopper is most prevalent for sure, but PTFE backed fleece is pretty had to mess up

true soft-shell - schoeller is the most common. warm and breathable. less windproof. a million different versions here, its all about the weave of the material, not the brand itself IMO. correct tool for job.



2.5 layer - active rain gear (i.e. jogging, cycling)

PU backed - in-active rain gear (i.e. standing, walking)

2 layer - basically the original "gore tex". pretty low performance material compared to the new stuff. a little more breathable than PU backed, less than 2.5, way less than 3 layer. not rain gear.



of course the quality of construction comes into play, so a cheap brand uses cheap stitching, DWR and cheap seam tape.

the nice thing about buying GORE is that you KNOW they use the best seam tape and DWR treatments (i.e. gore's stuff). but legit brands still use top end DWR and tape on their non-gore materials (i.e. patagonia h2no).

[Beyond]

Some of Gore's original patents for processes and machinery have expired, as they last for 20 or 14 years. They have a bunch of new ones, though.

OK, explains MO's comment. Personally, find GT Pro to still beat most anything, wears fine, not significantly more expensive than other stuff that works well.

Far as Oakley, ever been to their headquarters north of San Diego? Zillion dollar building with all these Oakley-ish 1920's modernist sci-fi flourishes, real monument to style over substance. They probably contract out their clothing to the same Chinese factory that makes stuff for Walmart...

[Micol]

in terms of materials (all IMO, YMMV):

stretch triple layer - does not really matter brand IMO. all pretty good, more breathable and easy moving than true hardshell below. a little less long term rugged, and a little more likely to wet-out in very wet driving snow.

triple layer hardshell - gore xcr and all its knockoffs (h2no, intuitive, etc) all have similar overall traits, but there is a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses based on the PTFE thickness, amount of porousness, and the external material. IMO buy the most bomber facing material, and make sure the piece has very good venting, or don't bother with this class.

new gen hardshell - pro shell, event, etc. lighter, more breathable than older triple layer materials. generally more expensive too.




windproof fleece - gore windstopper is most prevalent for sure, but PTFE backed fleece is pretty had to mess up

true soft-shell - schoeller is the most common. warm and breathable. less windproof. a million different versions here, its all about the weave of the material, not the brand itself IMO. correct tool for job.



2.5 layer - active rain gear (i.e. jogging, cycling)

PU backed - in-active rain gear (i.e. standing, walking)

2 layer - basically the original "gore tex". pretty low performance material compared to the new stuff. a little more breathable than PU backed, less than 2.5, way less than 3 layer. not rain gear.



of course the quality of construction comes into play, so a cheap brand uses cheap stitching, DWR and cheap seam tape.

the nice thing about buying GORE is that you KNOW they use the best seam tape and DWR treatments (i.e. gore's stuff). but legit brands still use top end DWR and tape on their non-gore materials (i.e. patagonia h2no).

agree, but more information is required

Some of these fabrics referenced by name only are still not quite descriptive enough. You can have a proshell with its outer layer being 60, 70. 90 denier and the other qualities still the same and each denier version is going to breath and perform differently. I still say the best test is to take the garment into the rain and see how it holds up. Then take a hygrometer under the jacket and record your moisture levels. Or, just note whether you are sweating profusely or not.

2, 2.5, 3 all can have different types of layer make up

for instance a 3L Poly/spandex outer/PTFE membrane/tricot interior is going to perform differently than a nylon/spandex outer/PTFE membrane/polyester insulation inner layer


I think the inside layers are a must to restrict compromising the performance of the ptfe membrane layer.

[XXX-er]

take a look at gortex dry suits & tops, ww paddling is a 100 percent wet often cold environment with heavy exertion where you are hermaticaly sealed in the piece which gets shit kicked .

I found that other than my hands I could be pretty comfortable paddling in decembr when there were chunks of ice the size of my head in the eddies, you don't sweat compared to coated nylon suits so its easier to get your layers right and so you stay warm & dry and I could wear my baselayer to the bar afterward

the best Drysuits hands down are made by Kokotat but they arent cheap so buddy will buy a cheaper brand and have warranty issues so he needs to send it away mid paddling season and have nothing to wear or the other brands don't work as well and 2 yrs later he is buying another "cheap?" drytop while my expensive Kokatat is still working

I figured out how to replace drysuit seals so I used to fix these for all the bros (a case of corona is the labor charge ) and so I got to see a lot of different shit kicked product after it had failed and IME you are always better to buy quality

I sent my 10 yr old arcterxy beta shell back for a new zipper and they fixed it gratus, the piece still beads up and I still use it the sleeve ends are starting to wear thru but hey its 10 yrs old

and common nobody pays full list for this stuff ... that is just crazy talk and best left to the gentiles

[GeezerSteve]

You want to really know how water proof your garment is? Stand in a heavy downpour until you get wet (like I do).

Sounds fine for CO, but this would be an incomplete test for PNW travel. Many ski tours, climbing routes and high routes in the PNW involve substantial travel through brush, and our brush is often wet. PTFE and PU shells wet out way faster when they get hammered through wet brush. Also, our brushy approaches scrape off factory DWR within a trip or two. IME, cheap PU shells work way better than expensive PTFE shells in wet brush.

[Beyond]

^^^^ Y'know there's the original Inuit way to deal with serious cold and serious sweat at same time; impermeable (sealskin etc) + lotsa vents that flex open when you move, close when you're still. Worked then, works now. No super "breathable" fabric will both a) hold up to serious abrasion and b) move water vapor at fast enough rates.

But PU can become a sweat bath even with vents if the temps aren't low enough. For moderate temps, I go with the old lower end three layer Gore Tex, noisy and crinkly, outer fabric typically heavy enough to protect membrane and zip vents take care of the rest, still has some breathing going on.

[XXX-er]

I waited for winter to send in my arcteryx shell for a new zip cuz thats the time of year when I don't use it

I am about to go into the bush right now for a short "stick bitch" stint and its rubber helly hansen

[bean]

How's the paclite material? Beyond makes their pants out of it, I'm tired of the endless search for something that fits but worried that paclite pants will be destroyed in a year of skiing and mountaineering.

[XXX-er]

does anybody fix their 3 layers or do they just let it rip and then rip more till its completely fucked/shredded and then they complain/buy new stuff ?

ductape is a Temp measure it will look like shit/the glue will bleed onto everything

a good company will often fix the piece sometimes for free or aqua seal and some kind of a backing material is your friend

[gregL]

How's the paclite material?

It's pretty sweaty, IMO suitable for emergency rain gear for hiking/camping, but not really for skiing or touring. The lack of a mesh backing makes a big difference in how the moisture inside the garment accumulates and "feels" to the wearer.

FWIW, Gore no longer makes XCR, but Pro fabrics use pretty much the same ePTFE membrane with a thinner PU protective layer. They don't spec their own DWR since they sold ReVivex, but hold you to a wet-out standard with whatever DWR you choose to use. They do insist you use their own seam tape and lease one of their seam tape machines if you want to hang a GORE-TEX® tag on any garment.

[gregL]

does anybody fix their 3 layers or do they just let it rip and then rip more till its completely fucked/shredded and then they complain/buy new stuff ?

I've patched ProShell by glueing fabric on the back side with tubular tire cement and sealing multiple times with liquid vinyl seam sealer. Seems to work OK. Rainy Pass wanted to sew a piece on (they did have OEM fabric on hand) and then seam seal it, but my way looked cleaner.

[robnow]

win the voted mostly looks like a skittle award.

Please don't dis the skittles. You can't argue that the Scandinavians (Peak Performance, Norrona) are THE most skittlish and make an EXCELLENT product.

[XavierD]

FWIW, I did not get wet in my 10k/10k flylow shit last year in the PNW. I think I gave it a DWR treatment twice.

[Hugh Conway]

I've patched ProShell by glueing fabric on the back side with tubular tire cement and sealing multiple times with liquid vinyl seam sealer. Seems to work OK. Rainy Pass wanted to sew a piece on (they did have OEM fabric on hand) and then seam seal it, but my way looked cleaner.

The adhesive fabric repair patches are much easier to apply and work well
http://www.mcnett.com/GORE-TEX-Fabri...-Kit-P221.aspx

[marshalolson]

They don't spec their own DWR since they sold ReVivex,

interesting, good to know.

[marshalolson]

It's pretty sweaty, IMO suitable for emergency rain gear for hiking/camping, but not really for skiing or touring. The lack of a mesh backing makes a big difference in how the moisture inside the garment accumulates and "feels" to the wearer.

agree 100%, but the old "black dots" paclite was awesome ski gear.