GRAND Canyon NPS Closes Deer Creek Narrows to Visitation

[Buster Highmen]

Uberuaga strikes again:

>>>>>

Both non-commercial and commercial river trips are being told at the
Lees Ferry participant orientation meetings, prior to launching on
Colorado River trips, that the Deer Creek narrows is closed to public
visitation. The "narrows" is a winding, water sculpted section of Deer
Creek drainage below the area known as "the patio" and above the Deer
Creek Falls.

No one is allowed to enter that area for recreational or other purposes.
The falls are also closed to rappelling.

It seems that the area was closed without any prior public notification
or hearing. Wally Rist, President of the Grand Canyon Private Boaters
Association, has been working to discover the rationale behind the
sudden closure of the narrows to public visitation. As Rist points out,
the area has been visited by explorers, river runners and hikers since
Canyon visitation began more than 143 years ago, with virtually no impact.

Although there has been no definitive reason given, and no official
announcement of the closure other than at the Lees Ferry orientation
talk, it's believed that safety concerns and protection of culturally
sensitive sites influenced the decision to close the narrows.

GCPBA President Rist has written to GCNP Superintendent Dave Uberuaga
asking for clarification of the rule and an explanation as to why this
closure took on such sudden importance, questioning the lack of public
participation in the process and asking for the NPS to reconsider their
action.

<<<<

More on Uberuaga:





http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/a...t-227523.html&


From that link:

>>>>

Crystal Mountain borders MRNP and it was Uberuaga who tried to force Crystal to close their boundaries after nearly 40 years of open boundary policy. This was done during the Crystal Master Development PLan overseen by the Forest Cervix.

While Crystal and the Forest Cervix (your tax dollars) spent millions doing studies, evaluating policies, gathering and analyzing data and going through a public permitting process, Uberuaga tried to, at the last moment, slide in the closure provision for every one of the 6 alternatives in the Final MDP.

When a bunch of us who had been involved in the MDP reviews read the final alternatives and found the closure clauses, we filed an injunction on the MDP to stop and force meetings with the FS to find out what was going on. At this point it was reveeal that MRNP (under the Department of Interiors, Naional Parks system) had in fact forced the Forest Cervix (under The Dept of Agriculture) to quietly add in these requirements without any public input.

A meeting was called in which Uberuaga only participated via phone and when asked where the closure came from, he simple said he "felt that skiing was bad for the park".

When the Forest Cervix requires all the processes and study for the MDP, input from citizen groups, Indian tribes, even treehugging nitwits like the Crystal Conservation Coalition (you people suck) which cost millions of dollars and lots of time, everyone in the room was dumbfounded at the puerile audacity of that clown.

There's lots more about Uberuaga being sent to Yosemite as a punishment for this land deal in lieu of proecution (the prosecutor said their case load was full due to lack of funding and they didn't have the resources to prosecute him). There, he he completely mismanaged a controlled burn which went wild and burned several thousand acres in Yosemite. It's all in public record.


<<<<





The fact that Uberuaga has any kind of public job is a testament to why bureaucracies fail. Corruption, mismanagement and sly dealings have landed him where he is rather than out of a job.

[summit]

Wow... that is awful.

[PNWbrit]

Dave strikes again....

[Rico in Flag]

I talked to a guide buddy about this last week.

Don't exactly jump to blame Uberuaga for the closing of the Narrows, and his past doesn't exactly explain this action. (Don't get me wrong, I don't know Uberuaga, nor am I defending him. As a backcountry skier, I don't agree with the closure of Crystal's boundaries either.)

As most Grand Canyon river runners know, the Canyon and various places in and near the Canyon are considered sacred to various area tribes. For example the Hopi salt mines. Area tribes have requested for decades that certain sites in/near the Canyon be closed to visitation out of respect for the significance of a site to a tribe. The best example of this kind of closure, and the only closure prior to the Narrows, is the Sipapu, just upstream of the Little Colorado confluence. The Sipapu is believed to be the point from which the Hopi emerged from the underworld, thus of ultimate importance to the Hopi beliefs.

As it was explained to me, the Narrows are considered to be the repository of souls to the Paiute tribe. The Paiutes have been requesting this closure for years. It's not a matter of impact from visitors rappelling, as Wally Rist believes, but rather the mere presence of visitors the Paiute find offensive and disrespectful.
It was also explained to me, that my guide friend wouldn't expect too many, if any more closures of this kind. If you want to blame anyone, that would be the Tribal Relations office of GCNP.

Here's my take; So river runners lost one. But in my opinion, Matkat, Havasupai, and National are just as nice, particularly Matkat. And the Patio is still open. The Canyon is so amazing that only people who have done the Narrows will know what they're missing. If you've done the Narrows, consider yourself lucky, you have some great memories.
2 cents.

[leroy jenkins]

I talked to a guide buddy about this last week.

Don't exactly jump to blame Uberuaga for the closing of the Narrows, and his past doesn't exactly explain this action. (Don't get me wrong, I don't know Uberuaga, nor am I defending him. As a backcountry skier, I don't agree with the closure of Crystal's boundaries either.)

As most Grand Canyon river runners know, the Canyon and various places in and near the Canyon are considered sacred to various area tribes. For example the Hopi salt mines. Area tribes have requested for decades that certain sites in/near the Canyon be closed to visitation out of respect for the significance of a site to a tribe. The best example of this kind of closure, and the only closure prior to the Narrows, is the Sipapu, just upstream of the Little Colorado confluence. The Sipapu is believed to be the point from which the Hopi emerged from the underworld, thus of ultimate importance to the Hopi beliefs.

As it was explained to me, the Narrows are considered to be the repository of souls to the Paiute tribe. The Paiutes have been requesting this closure for years. It's not a matter of impact from visitors rappelling, as Wally Rist believes, but rather the mere presence of visitors the Paiute find offensive and disrespectful.
It was also explained to me, that my guide friend wouldn't expect too many, if any more closures of this kind. If you want to blame anyone, that would be the Tribal Relations office of GCNP.

Here's my take; So river runners lost one. But in my opinion, Matkat, Havasupai, and National are just as nice, particularly Matkat. And the Patio is still open. The Canyon is so amazing that only people who have done the Narrows will know what they're missing. If you've done the Narrows, consider yourself lucky, you have some great memories.
2 cents.

I'm all for cultural sensitivity and understanding, but I really do not give two shits that some people long ago made up stories saying a certain place is too special to have anyone visit it. We're all animals.

[Tye 1on]

I'm all for cultural sensitivity and understanding, but I really do not give two shits that some people long ago made up stories saying a certain place is too special to have anyone visit it. We're all animals.

Not closed to everybody, just non-Paiute's...

[Rico in Flag]

I'm all for cultural sensitivity and understanding, but I really do not give two shits that some people long ago made up stories saying a certain place is too special to have anyone visit it.

Pretty conflicting statement there Leroy.

This is something that I struggle with. I ski on a mountain that is considered sacred to the Hopi, Navajo, and at least 11 other tribes. As they would have it, they would close the mountain to all forms of recreation, except of course, they're own use. This is something I just can't abide. Use of the Narrows is similar, but much more intimate.

In my post above, I'm wasn't trying to say I'm on the side of the Paiute, just trying to shed some light I learned on the NPS decision. My main point was, that in all likelihood, the question to close the Narrows was probably bouncing around the cubicles of Tribal Relations for a while, and it probably wasn't a quick and rash decision Uberuaga made.

[PNWbrit]

only people who have done the Narrows will know what they're missing

That's exactly the kinda bullshit statement Uberuaga would come out with...

and

it probably wasn't a quick and rash decision Uberuaga made.

I don't know Uberuaga

Clearly.

[leroy jenkins]

Pretty conflicting statement there Leroy.

This is something that I struggle with. I ski on a mountain that is considered sacred to the Hopi, Navajo, and at least 11 other tribes. As they would have it, they would close the mountain to all forms of recreation, except of course, they're own use. This is something I just can't abide. Use of the Narrows is similar, but much more intimate.

In my post above, I'm wasn't trying to say I'm on the side of the Paiute, just trying to shed some light I learned on the NPS decision. My main point was, that in all likelihood, the question to close the Narrows was probably bouncing around the cubicles of Tribal Relations for a while, and it probably wasn't a quick and rash decision Uberuaga made.

No, it isnt. I'm all for visiting in a respectful manner, not desecrating said place with trash or otherwise, but I don't think the Paiutes have any right to tell me just because they've decided a certain place has a mythological importance to them I shouldn't have a right to visit there.

I get you weren't supporting this choice, and I think you for your post, it does shed some light on things. Manifest destiny and what it entailed was a sad story, but I believe that as long as you're not hurting anyone or anything, you should have the right to do whatever the fuck you want. Offending someone's sensibilities doesn't count as hurting them in my book. Sorry, you (a general you, not you specifically) don't have a right to not be offended, especially over some made up stories.

There have been a lot of ills perpetrated against native americans, even after the time of manifest destiny. I believe the Paiutes lost some water and farming rights a while ago right? I could have empathy for that, and even advocate some sort of reparations, but no, you can't go to this place because its special and only for us is fucking bullshit. I am just as holy as they are. We are all animals.

[Tye 1on]

The Canyon has a great tradition of making decisions to address native concerns that turn out not so great. When i was there in the late 90's, they were in a boundary war pissing match with the Hualapai. Tribe claimed the line was middle of the river, NPS claimed it was historic high water. John Leshy, Dept of Interior Solicitor, [over both NPS and BIA], said it was high water line. Park decided to call the area between the two an 'area of cooperation', which meant the tribe did whatever the hell it wanted to do, hence helicopters flying down to the river where the tribe would take them on a 'raft trip'. Many hellish stories of rafts with leaks, motors failing, etc. Not to mention helicopter wrecks, but that's a different topic...

[Buster Highmen]

The part that's most disturbing I think is a complete lack of process.

Let's give Dave Uberuaga (DU) the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Paiute asserted the right to domain in the Narrows to the BLM/Dept of Interior.

The point is, DU is our employee. He owes the citizens of the United States and all users of the area at least the courtesy of explanation, meeting, dialogue and exchange. But Uberagua never does this and has a soiled and incompetent track record. He's a creep. Get his ass fired.

[PNWbrit]

The part that's most disturbing I think is a complete lack of process.

Let's give Dave Uberuaga (DU) the benefit of the doubt and assume that the Paiute asserted the right to domain in the Narrows to the BLM/Dept of Interior.

The point is, DU is our employee. He owes the citizens of the United States and all users of the area at least the courtesy of explanation, meeting, dialogue and exchange. But Uberagua never does this and has a soiled and incompetent track record. He's a creep. Get his ass fired.

You insufficiently mentioned the part about him probably also being a crook.

Don't put it past him to turn this into a chance to make $ from a franchised guiding system.

[Buster Highmen]

You insufficiently mentioned the part about him probably also being a crook.

Oh, OK, I just thought "soiled" would be enough. Besides, how many of the eyes that scan this are actually taking the time to investigate what a total sleazeball that clown is. This is why democracy fails; not because of Libumbricans or Conservocrats.

Don't put it past him to turn this into a chance to make $ from a franchised guiding system.

Run by Paiutes?

[Rico in Flag]

I get you weren't supporting this choice,

You're correct. Like I was trying to say about how I ski on a sacred mountain, I believe that respectful travelers can, and should be allowed to enjoy those "sacred" places, including the Narrows, or even the Sipapu. Thanks for your clarification too.

He owes the citizens of the United States and all users of the area at least the courtesy of explanation, meeting, dialogue and exchange.

Truth. The NPS does have a history of making quite but impactful decisions.

they were in a boundary war pissing match with the Hualapai. Tribe claimed the line was middle of the river, NPS claimed it was historic high water. John Leshy, Dept of Interior Solicitor, [over both NPS and BIA], said it was high water line.

And they still are. The Park says its territory extends 1/4 mile horizontally from the historic high water line. This may include canyon rim edge or beyond, where the cliffs are very steep. So Tye, have you heard of this one? The Navajo tourism board wants to build a TRAM (yes like the funitel at Squaw), HOTEL, AND WALKING PATHS, a couple hundred feet above waterline, on the cliff walls, about a quarter mile upriver from the LCR confluence. There WILL be a boundary war over this. (Search the interwebz, it's easy to find in the Arizona Daily Sun, complete with artist renderings of this mess.)

Seems like a couple of you guys know Dave better than I do. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding this decision. I wonder if he's thinking he has anything to gain from the massive foreign funded development proposed in Tusayan.
If you guys don't know, Grand Canyon NP is the park where superintendents go to retire. Seen it for the last two.

Oh,and I heard the Park is jacking up the concession fees river companies pay to the Park.

[PNWbrit]

Run by Paiutes?

But very culturally respectfully...

Their cheque is probably in the mail...

Grand Canyon NP is the park where superintendents go to retire.

Conveniently.

[Buster Highmen]

Oh,and I heard the Park is jacking up the concession fees river companies pay to the Park.

Interesting. You might first search on "Uberuaga Ashford Whittaker" and then tally up what's going on with existing guiding services.

Leaves one wondering what Jarvis is up to these days too:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...state-deal8860

oh la --dee-dah...

[Tye 1on]

And they still are. The Park says its territory extends 1/4 mile horizontally from the historic high water line. This may include canyon rim edge or beyond, where the cliffs are very steep. So Tye, have you heard of this one? The Navajo tourism board wants to build a TRAM (yes like the funitel at Squaw), HOTEL, AND WALKING PATHS, a couple hundred feet above waterline, on the cliff walls, about a quarter mile upriver from the LCR confluence. There WILL be a boundary war over this. (Search the interwebz, it's easy to find in the Arizona Daily Sun, complete with artist renderings of this mess.)

Seems like a couple of you guys know Dave better than I do. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding this decision. I wonder if he's thinking he has anything to gain from the massive foreign funded development proposed in Tusayan.
If you guys don't know, Grand Canyon NP is the park where superintendents go to retire. Seen it for the last two.

Oh,and I heard the Park is jacking up the concession fees river companies pay to the Park.

Hadn't heard of the tram from the LCR, doesn't surprise me. Navaho nation got a pretty sweet deal with the Antelope Point development being only available to Navaho bidders. Not sure how the tram would work out, the Skywalk/GC West is only a success to the Hualapai/Havasupai because of it's proximity to the Vegas tour market.

All the SES parks are where Supt's typically end their careers, Yellowstone, Yose, Canyon, Tetons. For one these parks tend to be a 'pinnacle position', taking a career full of experience to be ready for the job, secondarily the only jobs above are in the regional offices or washington, most park folks would prefer being in a park. [This summary does not apply to DU ]

River fees jumped with the 2008 contracts, roughly 50% higher than the previous- a sliding scale, ending up ~5% for revenues up to $1m, ~10% if ~$2m.

[Foggy_Goggles]

So is it disrespectful and bad form to eat one to many mushroom chocolates and spend the next 6 hours wondering what the fuck is going on under that tree at 221 that the Hualapai believe all their people originated from?

In all seriousness, I'm for giving native peoples the benefit of the doubt because they certainly got fucked over. That said, drive the road out from Diamond on shuttle and tell me how they treat mother earth. The res and much of the desert southwest is trashed by natives that have lost there way and have very little respect for mother earth and the enviroment around them.

[Tye 1on]

So is it disrespectful and bad form to eat one to many mushroom chocolates...

funny, that's how i got my first GC rowing experience...above Redwall Cavern...'hey, the river stopped and the walls are flying by, would you mind rowing for a bit?'