Moyers on the religious right and the environment (nsr/long)

[Jumper Bones]

I can't speak for Catholics and Presbyterians, but the Rapture is not part of Lutheran teachings. Whereas most fundamentalists view the Book of Revelation as a prophecy yet to come (the book hold much of the grist for much of the Left Behind books' depiction of the Tribulation), the Lutheran church views Revelation an allegorical vision of a possible future -- "a wakeup call" for first-century Christians.

that's interesting. I'd never heard that.

Most of my upbringing in 'the church' never dealt with Revelation at all. Nobody went there for a long time. But I guess there was an explosion of it with the whole Left Behind series' successes, as a number of churches began to do studies of Revelation for sermons and stuff. I guess you could say it's a big 'fad' in parts of Christian America. I woudn't really know though, I stopped going to church when I figured out it interfered with ski time...decided I'd rather be outside in that church, than inside in another.

I think all this is just a recent trend.

[The Reverend Floater]

I've got 12 years of RC education that says the rapture is at best a backwater in modern catholic theology.

Werd. As an Irish Prody/Russian Hebe with years of presbyterian sunday school mixed with years of hebe sunday school mixed with years of episicopal elementary school and 4 years at a Jesuit high school, I can say....backwater is an understatement. In all of these years of varying theology courses, I NEVER heard of this "rapture" or anything end-times related even once.

There is nothing wrong with christianity. But those folks mentioned in the article misconstrue the primary beliefs, teachings and lessons to be had....and for what? Somehow I don't believe their motives are even remotely spiritual.

[Schmear]

The second coming of Christ is central to nearly all Christian and Catholic denominations, but the rapture as an event (when and how will it happen?) is hotly debated even among evangelicals.

[The Reverend Floater]

The second coming of Christ is central to nearly all Christian and Catholic denominations.

True. And when Jesus comes I bet he's gonna want his religion back.

[Grange]

I grew up catholic. I went to catholic school, church twice a week for most of my childhood. I don't remember the us discussing this rapture prophecy.

While I have problems with the Catholic religion practices such as confession (what a joke) and birth control I still try to consider myself a Catholic. However with all the double standards the religious right support it is getting much harder to call myself a Catholic.

[Schmear]

True. And when Jesus comes I bet he's gonna want his religion back.

Indeed.

However, assuming that modern day biblical texts are accurate, and that Jesus really is an historical figure, plus any other caveats you want to add, this is an interesting quote:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household."

Makes you wonder about the general perception that Christianity is supposed to stand for peace, love, and harmony at all times...

Just typing out loud here...

[Stu Gotz]

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household."

I think that you are taking the quote out of context. I don't think that Jesus is asking his followers to take up the sword, but rather is saying his followers will experience undue hardship as they attempt to spread the word (capitalized?). I think that the sword represents upheavel and suffering for the early christians.

And away we go with the religious debate...It is a bit slow here in the office today.

[assgasorgrass]

What I think is scary, if Moyer's assessment is accurate, is how the prevailing Christian right attitude is essentially rape and pillage in the here and now because if we exhaust our resources and God doesn't provide more, then it is time to go occupy their reserved place next to their Lord. Kind of like having a blank check.

[Schmear]

I don't think that Jesus is asking his followers to take up the sword

I don't think so either, Stu. My point is simply that Christianity is full of surprises. Jesus never asked his followers to find common ground with the world, to get along with everybody. The "sword" also represents his commands, which he predicted would divide people.

Better stop now, I'm beginning to sound like T.J.

[Svengali]

jumperbones wrote:
I guess I missed that...I saw the thread degenerating into a slamfest on anybody stupid enough to believe in the rapture. Witness AKPM's and Svengali's posts...


Huh, I fail to see the connection(I actually take offence at the implication of a connection) between my post and Akpm's
My post was merely a link to a site that advocates/ believes in the "phenomena"
of the rapture--the "firedevil" is a symbol of my personal scepticism of said belief
Dont miss the plane!

As for Bill Moyer's, He seems more than qualified to make statements about the connectiond between religion and current political thought than anyone here, esp myself. "By the age of 15, Moyers was working as a reporter on his local paper, the Marshall News Messenger. He started college at North Texas State College, where he became class president. In 1954 he worked on Lyndon B. Johnson's Senate campaign and then, at Johnson's urging, transferred to the University of Texas at Austin, where he majored in journalism and worked at KTBC, the Johnson's television station. He graduated from the University of Texas in 1956, then spent a year studying church history at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland, before returning to study for a bachelor of divinity degree at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, which he completed in 1959."

[Telenater]

Oddly enough. The Orthodox consider the book of Revelations to be part of the Apocrypha. It wasn't until the middle ages that Revelations became part of any Christian doctrine.

[1080Rider]

All I know is that I'm catholic and I'm going to heaven (as long as I can get that last confession in before I bite the bullet.) You bastards better convert if you don't want to hang in hell. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[freshies]

its all bull shit...just another way to scare the masses and keep control...anyhoo, these people scare me. all extremists scare me, regardless of what faith they hide behind (christianity or islam). extremists of islam (osama, those idiot imams calling for holy war, etc etc) and christianity (insert half the Bush cabinet, pat robertson, etc etc) are both guilty of taking some basic principals of human understanding/nature (love one another, don't kill, lie, steal, etc) and creating fairy tales (the bible, the koran, etc) around them, taking historical figures (jesus, allah, etc) and turning them into larger than life characters, giving thm "powers" and moral traits neither of them really had (jesus was actually married and had a child according to historical texts), then eventually over time turning these faiths into dogmas, using them as a means to control the masses, accumulate wealth, start wars, etc etc...

so fuck all these rapture morons that are raping our enviornment and trying to instigate a world war....

me, i like snow, and the mountains, and my dog, and my friends....that's my "rapture"

[1000-oaks]

its all bull shit...just another way to scare the masses and keep control...anyhoo, these people scare me. all extremists scare me, regardless of what faith they hide behind

Damn straight. That goes for religious extremists AND left-wing wackos like Moyers, who isn't afraid to bend the truth to meet his needs.

[Greydon Clark]

Blah, blah, blah. Everyone posting on this thread except me is a fag. If you weren't a fag you would have been out sinning with me and the bros tonight.

Jesus ain't coming back and Bill Moyers is the man. Christianity is stupid. Fuck off.

[spray]

any thread mentioning rapture needs some blondie:

[Spats]

Damn straight. That goes for religious extremists AND left-wing wackos like Moyers, who isn't afraid to bend the truth to meet his needs.

Objectivity is not the same as smugly insulting everyone with an opinion.

There are things called facts, which make some opinions right and some opinions wrong. If you can't be bothered to investigate the facts yourself, don't piss on those who are trying to.

[natty dread]

Hey Natty, what's up with all the NSR political posts lately? You're killing the stoke. You must be in Oregon where the stoke is dead along with the closed resorts. Snap out of it dood.

Actually I'm pretty stoked right now K, as I almost always am--and I'm actually not in Oregon, I am watching seals and hundreds of birds feeding in the SF bay as I type--the seals and birds are stoked too, lots of little fish swirling around. Life is awesome.
But stoke and debate about political/religious issues are not mutually exclusive in my world, even if they are in yours. As has been said before, if you don't like, don't bump it to the top.

A little deconstruction and analysis of Moyers' piece by the more religious posters here would be more instructive to me than talk of a "godless" agenda, left wing extremists and the millions who believe in the rapture. But analysis takes more effort than blanket statements.

[uarementallyill]

Hmmmm, no one chiming in about what a load of crap Moyer's intro. was/is? Can't wait to hear the apology. Gotta keep you peeps honest.

[Tippster]

Millions of Americans believe that Saddam was behind 9/11.

Millions of Americans have never been outside the US.

Millions of Americans hope the South will rise again.

Millions of Americans listen to Rush Limbaugh, yet are for minimum sentencing guidelines for Prescription Drug Abuse.

Millions of Americans can't locate their Nation's Capitol on a map.

Millions of Americans are functionally illiterate.

Millions of Americans would willingly alter the 1st Amendment (Freedom of Speech/Press) before the 2nd Amendment (Right to bear (unspecified) Arms.)





"Millions of Americans" is a poor excuse for credibility or legitimacy.

[TeleAl]

Millions of Maggots find this thread a Mojo Suck.
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And go skiing dammit.

[ak_powder_monkey]

True. And when Jesus comes I bet he's gonna want his religion back.

Dear people in charge of making war who call yourselves christian:

"Heres one about religion the opiet of the masses but when they talk about god they make him sound like a facist Jesus Christ was a pacifist, I bet the shit they do in his name woulda made hime piss."
Jaya the Cat

"What part of thou shalt not kill don't you understand? is it the though part that got you? thou simply means you, is it the shalt not part that is confusing you? Shalt not means don't don't kill don't kill."
Hammel On trial

"turn the other cheek"
Jesus

[ak_powder_monkey]

[QUOTE=Svengali]j(I actually take offence at the implication of a connection)
[//QUOTE]



am I really that bad?

[Svengali]

ummm, You definitely have your moments!