A new breakthrough in Beacon tech

[summit]

Wouldn't the issue be signal attenuation through snow? Namely, GPS frequencies don't propogate well in snow?

You hit the nail on the head.

[Buzzworthy]

Wouldn't the issue be signal attenuation through snow? Namely, GPS frequencies don't propogate well in snow?

Two new (er) technologies in GPS, Hstar and Sirf III. Google them and see what you think.


I have not tested Trimble's ProXH under snow yet, but will in a few months. I will see how far down I can go and post results, but could always use a reminder too.


And PNW, I think there still is a lot of work to do with GPS and beacons. And there may be better ways than GPS, as you pointed out a scenario.


I am a newbie as far as beacons and how to search,....., I just got my Tracker last weekend. But I have been doing GPS work for 2 years and I have seen a big change in technology in those 2 years, plus equipment costs have been cut in half or more.

I find this an interesting topic and can't wait to see where GPS technology heads reagarding this.

But am now way am I an expert, Cololi, Telenater and Bagtagley may have much more to say on this. Those 3 come to mind right away.

Wonder what Avmapper has to say? He is new to the board, but is one of the more experienced backcountry, avie, tech, GPS guy here. His site is www.avalanchemapping.org and has some super info in there. Worth looking at for sure!

[cj001f]

Two new (er) technologies in GPS, Hstar and Sirf III. Google them and see what you think.

GPS signal bands are all in 1-2GHz range (that's the satelite signal) Water absorbs energy very well in that region (your microwave operates at 2.4GHz), well enough that your receiver couldn't get a satellite signal to determine it's position.

[Buzzworthy]

GPS signal bands are all in 1-2GHz range (that's the satelite signal) Water absorbs energy very well in that region (your microwave operates at 2.4GHz), well enough that your receiver couldn't get a satellite signal to determine it's position.

Did not know about the water absorb deal in that range. Thanks.

Not only Microwave, most cheaper cordless phones, baby monitors, Bluetooth and 802.11 wifi.

Edit: The baby monitor went off the other day and I was on my laptop wified from upstairs and dropped connection. So I tested it again, boom, did it again. Mrs. Buzz thought it was funny, I was trying to finish a project so I could relax.


I'm still going to test it on my BC setup on company time though when it snows.

[aspenskibum]

there's no valid reason why beacons are so ridiculously behind the times. My Palm can do just about everything except slice bread. You can even get GPS palms now. So why is this so friggen hard? It's about time someone came out with a beacon like this.

especially because palm pilots help keep you organized, beacons help keep you alive. Beacons should be one of the most advanced peices of tech out there. Then again, your palm pilot wouldn't even survive an avalanche would it?

[PNWbrit]

there's no valid reason why beacons are so ridiculously behind the times. My Palm can do just about everything except slice bread. You can even get GPS palms now. So why is this so friggen hard? It's about time someone came out with a beacon like this.

especially because palm pilots help keep you organized, beacons help keep you alive. Beacons should be one of the most advanced peices of tech out there. Then again, your palm pilot wouldn't even survive an avalanche would it?

Number of PDA'sPalms/cellphones/GPS units sold per year worldwide - tens or hundreds of millions?

Number of beacons - not more than tens of thousands

If sony/nokia thought they could sell enough and therefore keep the price reasonable we'd have web access and playstation games on our pieps.

[Lurch]

Number of PDA'sPalms/cellphones/GPS units sold per year worldwide - tens or hundreds of millions?

Number of beacons - not more than tens of thousands

If sony/nokia thought they could sell enough and therefore keep the price reasonable we'd have web access and playstation games on our pieps.

Not only that but all things that need to work in life/death situations tend to be built very simple and very reliably add-ons just increase the number of things that can cause the unit to fail when needed the most.

[3pin]

a little news from OR on the S1... http://www.telemarkskier.com/cgi-bin...067;p=1#000000

[Arty50]

a little news from OR on the S1... http://www.telemarkskier.com/cgi-bin...067;p=1#000000

Oh hell yeah!!!!

For this season, all Pieps DSP beacons shipped for the coming season will feature new software controlling the search algorithms. Liberty Mountain, distributors of the DSP claim the new version DSP will have greater receive range, be able to pick up signals from older, out of spec beacons, and eliminate the phenomenon of "ghosting" that was sometimes evident with the first generation beacon. The most exciting part though, at least to existing DSP owners, is the announcement that these improvements are due to software revisions that will be available to current owners for free. Pieps isn't ready to provide these downloads via the web quite yet, but the upgrade can be performed by sending your beacon to Pieps, Liberty Mountain, or retailers who have the appropriate software and download cable. To make the upgrade, the beacon is connected to a computer with a Pieps upgrade program, via a special USB cable, and then downloaded into the beacon.

Looks like I'll be upgrading my Pieps DSP this year.

[Hugh Jardon]

Dude, it sounded killer to me also. So I called 800.366.2666 and they have not seen it yet. But they say it's coming. But there's no way I'd let a retail store upgrade the software, that's suicidal!

[sanjuaner]

The new Arva pro model functions similarly to the Orto. S1 in that it shows the range of each beacon buried. It will also let you isolate them by distance.

[Telenater]

GPS signal bands are all in 1-2GHz range (that's the satelite signal) Water absorbs energy very well in that region (your microwave operates at 2.4GHz), well enough that your receiver couldn't get a satellite signal to determine it's position.

Not only that, the human body is an exceptionally effective blocker of the GPS signal. Getting buried with your body on top of a GPS antenna would pretty much kill its usfullness off.

As far as the next step in avy beacons goes, I'm still convinced that it is a triangulation system.

Avy happens... person buried.

rescuer navigates to area of slide. Does coarse search as normal. When within 5 meters. Takes another transmitter/reciever tosses it off to the side. reciever in resuers hand triangulates in 3d based on a fixed transmiter (transmiter), a known location (rescuer) and an unknown location (victim).

Repeat for multiple burials.

I do see the possibility of integrating a GPS satilite rescue transmitter into an avy beacon, but it'd be pretty pricy and you probably shouldn't loan it to a buddy.

[sanjuaner]

Just talked to a friend who was able to try the Ortovox S1 two weeks ago. He reports it worked as described. The images of the beacons were shown spatially and as he walked along, the cross-hairs moved with him toward (or away) for the beacons shown. He was stoked.

[Big Tim]

Just talked to a friend who was able to try the Ortovox S1 two weeks ago. He reports it worked as described. The images of the beacons were shown spatially and as he walked along, the cross-hairs moved with him toward (or away) for the beacons shown. He was stoked.

Nicely

[cololi]

I wouldn't be suprised if there are major breakthroughs overthe next 3 years. I think a beacon wil lbe on the market that utilizes GPS to essentially track a person and also be able to lock in to other beacons and create a triangulation reading of each person in the group. The key will be the software. I see it working like this:

Each beacon has a unique ID that can be read by other beacons. You program your beacon with the others in your group at the trail head, much like a remote control for a tv. For older beacons, the device creates a generic ID. The older beacons would not be able to give off a GPS reading, but can still be searched by the beacon based on the signal. The GPS unit on board is able to store the other beacons data as you continue on your tour. The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential. On search mode, the searching beacon can us the data to send you in the right direction and at the right buried elvation.

[summit]

I wouldn't be suprised if there are major breakthroughs overthe next 3 years. I think a beacon wil lbe on the market that utilizes GPS to essentially track a person and also be able to lock in to other beacons and create a triangulation reading of each person in the group. The key will be the software. I see it working like this:

Each beacon has a unique ID that can be read by other beacons. You program your beacon with the others in your group at the trail head, much like a remote control for a tv. For older beacons, the device creates a generic ID. The older beacons would not be able to give off a GPS reading, but can still be searched by the beacon based on the signal. The GPS unit on board is able to store the other beacons data as you continue on your tour. The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential. On search mode, the searching beacon can us the data to send you in the right direction and at the right buried elvation.

Uh... did you miss that whole part about GPS now penetrating snow?

[Ski Monkey]

Uh... did you miss that whole part about GPS now penetrating snow?

The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential.

1234567890

[Arty50]

The GPS is active until it looses its signal, then the beacons work together to triangulate each others lcoation. The other beacons (if not buried,) are able to place a geographic location to the buried beacon(s) and give an exact location, along with elevation differential. On search mode, the searching beacon can us the data to send you in the right direction and at the right buried elvation.

This would only work if the victim were buried at the last second. What if the GPS loses signal while the victim is submerged in an active slide and then continues on down the slope?

I really like the embedded ID tag idea. Multiples can be very tricky and this could improve the process immensely.

[Core Shot]

I guess the idea cololi was suggesting was a combo GPS/AvyBeacon where the above ground beacons would establish GPS locations and the buried beacons would be triangulated via regular Avy frequencies. Not sure how this helps most rescue scenarios.

In any event, GPS sucks too much juice to be useful. On transmit, Avy beacon can last for days or weeks.

Not to mention GPS/Avy/beaconID/triangulation violates the KISS principles.
If triangulation is done between beacons, one faulty beacon or one beacon in a bad location could throw off the final location. Better to have all beacons independently find all transmitting beacons via flux line algorithms.

I think the new Ortovox S1 graphic display is more than enough specificity. Just give us a simple map of multiple beacon signals with estimated distance and direction and rescues will be sooo much easier. Can't wait to see how these things perform - will be getting one for sure once they are proven.

[Lori]

I've spoken to a product manager from OV (Germany) and they're not bringing them out until 06/07. this new model only has 2 antennae I think and folks from Seidl Electonics (they developed the Pieps DSP) reckon that what OV wants to do is impossible without radar technology.

[Free Range Lobster]

Ortovox or any one of the others needs to be picked up by ACR or one of those rescue beacon giants if we wanna see some real leaps and bounds in technology.

[Meathelmet]

I've spoken to a product manager from OV (Germany) and they're not bringing them out until 06/07. this new model only has 2 antennae I think and folks from Seidl Electonics (they developed the Pieps DSP) reckon that what OV wants to do is impossible without radar technology.

Yo, Lori.
What do you refer with OV? Ortovox?

The S1 seems to be "for sale" in couple places allready.

None of them have answered any inquiries about aviability,though.
In one place it was,like "ships in 3-4weeks",wich usually means:"don´have it,won´t get it."

http://www.montanarasport.ch/Lawinen/Lawinen.htm

and

http://www.westside-sport.com/Ortovox_S1.3361.0.html

[Lori]

yeah with OV i meant ortovox. the best beacon they ever made was the F1 fokus, which has a reach of 40 meters (as opposed the the barryvox, which I also work with but it only has a reach of no more than 30 meters.

[summit]

yeah with OV i meant ortovox. the best beacon they ever made was the F1 fokus, which has a reach of 40 meters (as opposed the the barryvox, which I also work with but it only has a reach of no more than 30 meters.

Have you tried the SOS F1-ND? Beats the OV F1 hands down.

[cj001f]

The S1 seems to be "for sale" in couple places
allready.

The US stores I talked to suggested Christmas with a big MAYBE attached.

cololi-
Your schem locates where the beacon was last above the surface. Good, but they could be buried 10s or 100s of meter from that point.