Tuckerman's crevasse/moat hiker fatality: lessons learned

[Tye 1on]

Just putting this up as a spot for all to learn from this tragedy. Chime in.

[VTColdSmoke]

Just putting this up as a spot for all to learn from this tragedy. Chime in.

Such a tragedy, and very scary too...

I would be interested to know exactly where this crevasse was, heard it was not the normal waterfall hole but closer to sluice/lunch rocks?

The bowl never seems to be completely safe, every time I make it up there lunch rocks are off limits due to volkswagon sized ice chunks hanging and ready to break up.

Also I want to second that this avy bulletin is a great resource for TUX: http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/

[wooley12]

Short answer. If you are not totally equipped with crampons, ax, harness and rope, don't traverse a steep, snowy pitch.

Not sure of his route or if he had other options to descend. I skied that exact section of the bowl last May after a couple years of study to get there. A bucket list kind of thing. You can walk a few miles up a seasonal road to get to the top of the mountain and proceed down into the ravine or 2300' up from the base. Not to be crass, but there is really not much to learn except that if you go into places that have dangerous aspects, accidents can happen. The person was familiar with Tuckerman Ravine and had been there a number of times. He was hiking across a slippery 40ish deg slope. He slipped/tripped and slid into an abyss. A slip fifty yards back or farther on his route might have resulted in just a slushy slide. A tragic and unfortunate accident made profound in the horror we feel thinking of sliding into a 60 ft.+ deep watery hole and being swallowed by the mountain.

An analogy would be that we all have driven a car when road conditions are dicey. We would be much safer if we had a 5 point seat belt, full face helmet, HANS device and fire suit. But thousands take that chance and sometimes someone loses.

[kingdom-tele]

"there's a big difference between ignoring warnings (and maybe dying) and managing the risks of the warnings effectively and staying alive. peace to the gentlemans family is good, but we don't really learn anything from it. this is a forum where shit gets discussed. by bringing up the whys and the hows, many folks may pick up on something that may keep themselves or others alive some day or at least make them think about an incident that could have gone a lot worse or could've been avoided in the 1st place."

rog

Spare me. 99% of the armchair assessments in this medium are spewed to maintain an illusion that you are above the herd. Is there really such a big difference? How do you know? Are you gifted beyond human capacity to have a direct interrelatedness with the deceased, the injured, the person in err. shoveling your own shit into higher pillar doesn't make you helpful, it makes you more vain. pointing out the obvious isn't a humanitarian skill.

[goldenboy]

Spare me. 99% of the armchair assessments in this medium are spewed to maintain an illusion that you are above the herd. Is there really such a big difference? How do you know? Are you gifted beyond human capacity to have a direct interrelatedness with the deceased, the injured, the person in err. shoveling your own shit into higher pillar doesn't make you helpful, it makes you more vain. pointing out the obvious isn't a humanitarian skill.

I'd maybe put the # at 90%, but yeah, pretty damn spot on with the MMQB

[icelanticskier]

mmqb often leads to some learning and positive take aways. some folks are here to listen and learn.

rog

[kingdom-tele]

mmqb often leads to some learning and positive take aways. some folks are here to listen and learn.

rog

Maybe. Read half of the reply's to any of the tradgedies and I think that sentiment could be agrued. Besides, it doesn't change the fact its a terrible way to learn. Building a skill set through the experience of someone else is nice recipe for ignoring and developing your own intuition or accepting your limitations on any given day. Of course it would undermind your sense of infallibleness and god forbid you feel anything close to that.

[Alaskan Rover]

Maybe a link to the story would help. I've never heard about that particular Mt. Wash/Tuckerman's accident. I'm sure there are others here who haven't as well. Here's a link to a Boston Globe article about it:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...lxJ/story.html

Reading that article, I'm not really sure there is much to learn that most of us don't already know. Spring conditions in ANY mountains can be dangerous. I've been around those spring-melt 'crevasses'...and indeed they CAN be huge. Like falling into a god-awful sewer and disappearing.

Maybe the only thing to be learned is that the whole group should have been wearing crampons and had axes and knew self-arrest techniques.

But "shoulda-wouldas" are always damned easy, aren't they?

Just watch your step out there, folks.

--

[1000-oaks]

Props to the SAR guy who dropped 50 vertical feet into something that could shift any second. Brave man, valiant effort.

[icelanticskier]

Maybe. Read half of the reply's to any of the tradgedies and I think that sentiment could be agrued. Besides, it doesn't change the fact its a terrible way to learn. Building a skill set through the experience of someone else is nice recipe for ignoring and developing your own intuition or accepting your limitations on any given day. Of course it would undermind your sense of infallibleness and god forbid you feel anything close to that.

we aren't born knowing stuff. learning from experiences, faults/triumphs from others is a way for less experienced folks to think about things in ways that they never could conceive of on their own and maybe peak their interest to go out and learn more through courses, hooking up with more experienced folks, reading, or whatever. speaking the obvious? maybe, but folks continue to foolishly fuck up even when all of the warning signs are right there in front of them.

i would urge less experienced folks to ask q's here (altho i think i'll start another tr regarding good/safer mountain travel habits) and maybe some good thoughtful insights can be shared.

like something as simple as, instead of just dropping into a coolie cuz you think it's soft, but it's not so what do you do to find out without committing yerself to it? well, i always throw snowballs/ice chunks down till they make a good impression or stick before dropping in. sometimes i've sat for a good hour or more waiting where if i'd just dropped it cuz it was there or "the plan", it'd been shitting skiing or worse, very dangerous.

rog

[old goat]

A long time ago I used to occasionally read accident bulletins from the Appalachian Mountain club. If the victim was a local/AMC member the accident was always an act of god, could have happened to anyone. If the victim was a tourist the accident was due to their stupidity and incompetence. I started reading them after a friend died descending Tuck's on foot (not skiing).

EVERYONE who goes to the mountains will at some time find themselves in a place they shouldn't be or missing gear they shouldn't have. There's not a lot of detail in the reports re gear, snow conditions, and angle but based on the limited information available I see nothing to criticize. I do know that when I used to climb in Huntington's-- again, a long time ago--the rule was to climb unroped if moving together--no point in turning one accident into two. If one experienced, competent climber falls and can't arrest, the second it not going to be able to hold him.

[icelanticskier]

A long time ago I used to occasionally read accident bulletins from the Appalachian Mountain club. If the victim was a local/AMC member the accident was always an act of god, could have happened to anyone. If the victim was a tourist the accident was due to their stupidity and incompetence.

same holds true here and now. romeo fucks up and dies, no one questions. unknown/less experienced dood fucks up and dies and folks jump all over him. should be the most experienced fuck ups being discussed imo.

no point in turning one accident into two. If one experienced, competent climber falls and can't arrest, the second it not going to be able to hold him.

qft. in my big slide, it was paramount that my partner stayed put on the ridge above with eyes on me while i went in to check things out. had he entered the slope with me or dropped in behind, things coulda turned out a bit different. always ski one at a time and only expose one skier on a line at a time no matter what, even in stable conditions. just better form imo.

rog

[_Aaron_]

same holds true here and now. romeo fucks up and dies, no one questions. unknown/less experienced dood fucks up and dies and folks jump all over him. should be the most experienced fuck ups being discussed imo.

I think youll find that most experienced people that get caught in mountain accidents (avys, objective hazards, falls etc) that famliarity and complatency are a large majority. Im guessing it would be at least 75%. The second would be listening to irrational "gut" feelings instead of rational observations. It seems experienced folks are rarely caught totally by suprise by something they didnt at least know something about.

Almost everytime I read an accident report involving experience people I come away with the reminder to be more vigilant with my bc travel techniques not a "huh, didnt know that before"

Edit to add: I think people benefit the most from accident reports from people that have roughly the same experience and education levels as themselves since the mistakes made but each group seem to be somewhat consistant.


Yes I used nonspecific words alot. I have nothing concrete to back any of ^^^ that up just what I personally have observed.

[kingdom-tele]

I think youll find that most experienced people that get caught in mountain accidents (avys, objective hazards, falls etc) that famliarity and complatency are a large majority. Im guessing it would be at least 75%. The second would be listening to irrational "gut" feelings instead of rational observations. It seems experienced folks are rarely caught totally by suprise by something they didnt at least know something about.

Almost everytime I read an accident report involving experience people I come away with the reminder to be more vigilant with my bc travel techniques not a "huh, didnt know that before"

Edit to add: I think people benefit the most from accident reports from people that have roughly the same experience and education levels as themselves since the mistakes made but each group seem to be somewhat consistant.

Interesting POV Aaron. I have reservation about this. Not condoning the non use of objective measuring tools. But with the limitations of consciousness, relying to heavily on variable information within a complex system, and most importantly the unique perception the observer has of any information finding any consistency in inter or intrarater reliability is, well, not good.

A long time ago I used to occasionally read accident bulletins from the Appalachian Mountain club. If the victim was a local/AMC member the accident was always an act of god, could have happened to anyone. If the victim was a tourist the accident was due to their stupidity and incompetence. I started reading them after a friend died descending Tuck's on foot (not skiing).

EVERYONE who goes to the mountains will at some time find themselves in a place they shouldn't be or missing gear they shouldn't have. There's not a lot of detail in the reports re gear, snow conditions, and angle but based on the limited information available I see nothing to criticize. I do know that when I used to climb in Huntington's-- again, a long time ago--the rule was to climb unroped if moving together--no point in turning one accident into two. If one experienced, competent climber falls and can't arrest, the second it not going to be able to hold him.

Right. even with all the detail in the world, these post accident assessments and second guessing threads could never know the most important part, the history of the person and uniqueness of the day's decisions. There is no way to know, which reinforces the notion that each novice should spend more time getting to know their own comfort levels, not some other's.

we aren't born knowing stuff. learning from experiences, faults/triumphs from others is a way for less experienced folks to think about things in ways that they never could conceive of on their own and maybe peak their interest to go out and learn more through courses, hooking up with more experienced folks, reading, or whatever. speaking the obvious? maybe, but folks continue to foolishly fuck up even when all of the warning signs are right there in front of them.

i would urge less experienced folks to ask q's here (altho i think i'll start another tr regarding good/safer mountain travel habits) and maybe some good thoughtful insights can be shared.

like something as simple as, instead of just dropping into a coolie cuz you think it's soft, but it's not so what do you do to find out without committing yerself to it? well, i always throw snowballs/ice chunks down till they make a good impression or stick before dropping in. sometimes i've sat for a good hour or more waiting where if i'd just dropped it cuz it was there or "the plan", it'd been shitting skiing or worse, very dangerous.

rog

Not questioning the importance of learning Rog. I have issue with the idea a novice (me) should put any stock in a social medium filled with people expressing their own opinions based on their own action plans on a situation that no one could possibly know the unique details of the person involved. Its a terrible way to pass judgement, you are able to cherry pick the obvious in which the obvious is different for every observer and limited in scope

with re: to all the people still fucking up: welcome to the world Rog, I am surprised you haven't realized yet not everyone is aware of your standards of whats OK or not. Besides, hasn't that changed over the years? How are we to know?

[icelanticskier]

contributions y'all. easy with those big words kt, gonna take me hours to figure out some of the stuff yer saying

maybe cookie monster has some input and could probably answer to some of kt words better than myself, a chart or 3 maybe? c'mon cookie, help us out here, eh?

rog

[Alaskan Rover]

Sheeeeez.....why do these things always tun into a dick-swinging session?

--

[_Aaron_]

KT, Ill reword that pov a little bit to clear it up.

Intuitive processes are learned from experience so therefore they have a place in descision making in the backcountry, expecially in more advanced bc travelers. They are a useful tool for saying no or pulling the plug, but not (when used alone) for saying lets go.

(almost?) Everybody that travels in the backcountry with any frequency has "gotten away with it" at least once and probably multiple times weather they know it or not. The getting away with it reinforces that the choice was a good choice even if it was not. That is why gut feeling alone is never a good enough reason to go.

Sure in a system with so many variable and grey areas even the best are going to get suprised or miss something even if their intuitive process is sharp and they look at the information they have observed objectivly but when people forget or dont to look at the information objectivly and just run on intuition trouble seems to pop up much more often.

Oh, and Im with rog, your words are a little confusing (vocab and spelling arent my strong points ) so If I mistook what you said my mistake.

[spook]

i think it's beneficial to read about mistakes regardless of the competence of the victim. i've reports here in which highly experienced people made the exact same stupid mistake a tourist does or made a mistake that i wouldn't have considered but now realizing it, not only seems obvious, but fills in some concepts between point a), beginner and point b), more experienced. i thought the ranger quoted in the story about romeo was as gentle saying what he was saying as he could have been.

[Jonathan S.]

Just putting this up as a spot for all to learn from this tragedy. Chime in.

Although I think incident examination is a highly valuable way to prevent future incidents (which of course is exactly what the FAA does, and ditto for real quarterbacks on Monday mornings), I don't see anything to learn here. First off, for those of you out West who see the "crevasse" references, although our seasonal glide cracks can be just as deadly as a glacial crevasse, it's not like anyone is ever navigating that section of Tux that same way you would be skinning up a glacier in the spring or summer, and the topography is way different than a glacier. Second, apparently while hiking he took a random fall, which carried him down into the hole. I have no idea as to his travel gear or climbing skills, but you westerners who are used to seeing overkill like people heading up from Bunny Flat or Gov't Camp with 12-pt steel crampons and harnesses, you'd be amazed at the opposite extreme in Tux.

I skied that exact section of the bowl last May after a couple years of study to get there.

You needed "a couple years of study" to hike 2400' vert along a very popular trail then boot up a little bit more to make a few turns?

Props to the SAR guy who dropped 50 vertical feet into something that could shift any second. Brave man, valiant effort.

Indeed -- previously a cabin caretaker, J.L. got his start with the USFS in large part from his heroic rescue efforts when he saw a deadly early-season avalanche in the same location several years earlier.

romeo fucks up and dies, no one questions.

That's b/c he had already provided all the answers in his detailed accounts of his four prior incidents on his blog.

[1000-oaks]

Only skied Tucks once in college, and remember stepping/jumping over a big meltwater/glide crack on the way up. Spooked me then, but if we had any brains whatsoever we would have gone around the thing. Clueless that it could be so deep...lucky.

[wooley12]

You needed "a couple years of study" to hike 2400' vert along a very popular trail then boot up a little bit more to make a few turns?

Yeah. The Tuckerman Spring Shitshow was my goal from the start. First I had to buy skis, Dynafit's and learn how to mount them. Then a "How to Skin" lesson from you (Rule #1-Bring your own water). Rog's advice was "Just Do It!" Then a few trips to the Cascades to practice. Then waiting for the wife/weather window of opportunity to appear. Then climb 2300' with my sister in law to celebrate her cancer recovery resting every 500' or so that we both required. I would have skied from the lip but was told overnight camping was not allowed 1/2 up the head wall. Like I say on another forum, "Your yoyo is my daytrip." I'm the most rad dude in my seniors golf league.

[icelanticskier]

Rog's advice was "Just Do It!"

liar, i'd never recommend skiing tux in spring. tux is for midweek nov/dec/jan/early feb when no one else is in there and everything is smooth, pretty, and untracked.

spring is for sugarloaf

rog

[icelanticskier]

That's b/c he had already provided all the answers in his detailed accounts of his four prior incidents on his blog.

oh right, spooky.

sorry for not getting back to you on that email (of course you had to send me more cute micayla pics, which always throws me off, but anything you could share regarding a shift in avy course content and/or an avy instructor exposing himself to non-low danger conditions and some org getting all hot n bothered about it? whatchoo got?

rog

[kingdom-tele]

KT, Ill reword that pov a little bit to clear it up.

Intuitive processes are learned from experience so therefore they have a place in descision making in the backcountry, expecially in more advanced bc travelers. They are a useful tool for saying no or pulling the plug, but not (when used alone) for saying lets go.

(almost?) Everybody that travels in the backcountry with any frequency has "gotten away with it" at least once and probably multiple times weather they know it or not. The getting away with it reinforces that the choice was a good choice even if it was not. That is why gut feeling alone is never a good enough reason to go.

Sure in a system with so many variable and grey areas even the best are going to get suprised or miss something even if their intuitive process is sharp and they look at the information they have observed objectivly but when people forget or dont to look at the information objectivly and just run on intuition trouble seems to pop up much more often.

Oh, and Im with rog, your words are a little confusing (vocab and spelling arent my strong points ) so If I mistook what you said my mistake.

I'll reword as well. I wasn't trying to imply objective measures were not beneficial. But they are digested through each person. For you guys, who know these skills vs. someone who is still new at a skill the info acquired will be different because each person is different, on any given day. An internet forum of opinion and educated guessing shouldn't be a learning tool. that was all I was getting at. I should have just written this earlier, sorry.

Although I think incident examination is a highly valuable way to prevent future incidents (which of course is exactly what the FAA does, and ditto for real quarterbacks on Monday mornings), I don't see anything to learn here. First off, for those of you out West who see the "crevasse" references, although our seasonal glide cracks can be just as deadly as a glacial crevasse, it's not like anyone is ever navigating that section of Tux that same way you would be skinning up a glacier in the spring or summer, and the topography is way different than a glacier. Second, apparently while hiking he took a random fall, which carried him down into the hole. I have no idea as to his travel gear or climbing skills, but you westerners who are used to seeing overkill like people heading up from Bunny Flat or Gov't Camp with 12-pt steel crampons and harnesses, you'd be amazed at the opposite extreme in Tux.

No argument, case study, incident report, film study on Monday morning, etc can be learning tools. But the application of the information is suited best for peers in that field (as Aaron pointed out), or the QB himself. Just seems like a poor way for someone who has limited self exposure to the setting or the experience of the moment itself to learn.

[homemadesalsa]

Just seems like a poor way for someone who has limited self exposure to the setting or the experience of the moment itself to learn.

Mmm, I disagree. Am a big fan of case studies and ANAM writeups (Accidents in NA Mtneering), especially when the participants are active in the post-event assessment, familiar with the decision-making and their own weaknesses. The best teachers of avy courses or upper level rescue (usually rock or mtn rescue) can help the learner see the thought process and how they might make the same series of decisions, then exercise self-or situational awareness or some sort of checklist to avoid the trap, move beyond it, or break the chain.

Agreed that it is different on the internet, we see less critical thinking and time spent to understand complexities. If readers and writers are tolerant of self and spend the time to actually say what they mean, then these MMQB sessions can be useful./