Beacon/shovel/probe necessary for late spring/summer lines?

[seldon]

Do you bring all your gear when you're going after corn? Or is it just excessive?

[Yossarian]

I play it by ear. Definitely still take gear and go with partners and practice proper protocol for a while, but yes, to jump to your implication, there is sometimes a point in the summer when the snow is well consolidated enough on the aspects I'm skiing that I stop taking avy gear, might go solo low-exposure areas I know, etc, etc. But it's a point that I reach only by continuing to take gear and dig pits and watch the snow until I'm satisfied - it's not "safe" just because it's early summer. Also depends on the type of snowpack. The wetter warmer packs consolidate faster; the continental packs take longer to get stable.

Of course, this is also about the same time that I often start bringing other things with me instead, like crampons or an occasional light axe, etc, because at that point the game becomes one of timing more than anything else. Early climbs on refrozen snow so you hit the descent as the corn softens, and most importantly, so you're not out late in the day when wet slide/glide avy/rockfall danger starts to rise dramatically as a result of warming. So, really you're just exchanging one routine for another, although of course the corn cycles are generally much more predictable and safer than mid-winter avy cycles. For me, I like to get up ass-crack early in the summer, climb while I know it's solid, and then wait around if I have to for the right time to ski. Usually end up dropping in somehwere between 10a and 11:30a, rarely if ever start a descent much after noon.

[Yossarian]

P.S. I'd be interested to read other's thoughts too...

Not ready for it yet, need more pow, but all the same, can't wait for the summer corn farming.

[jimmy page]

I don't see why you wouldn't bring your shovel, probe and beacon out with you when you go backcountry corn skiing. Sure the risk is lower, if you are doing things right, but a probe and a beacon aren't really going to reduce the weight of things much and there are a ton of other uses for a shovel other than to dig out an avalanche victim. Plus you would sure be sorry if something does happen and you are without.

[AltaPowderDaze]

i always take mine. as far as my reasoning, well, it's just habit and feels weird to be out without it. i have seen people get caught out late and have the possibility of burial by wet slide. you can't dig thru wet debris without gear. on the north aspects you can never be sure even in the spring. when they first start percolating water thru the pack you can find some old rain crusts that let loose quick. it just makes sense to bring it with you. there are other reason i'm sure but i am in too much of a hurry to think of them.

[PNWbrit]

Always!

Are you that confident in your abilities that you'll never make a bad judgement call and that suddenly they'll be very necessary?

Are you asking because you have them but want to save weight or don't have them yet and want to go regardless? I'd be very concerned at your reasoning if it's the later. You should be making decisons about toning down safety levels only after gaining much experience using full safety procedures.

What do your climbing partners think? The decision affects them as much as it does you. If they aren't able to advise you and discuss this situation should you all consider finding someone else to climb with?

Please be careful.

[marshalolson]

agreement with above.
if it is possible for an avy to happen (ie. slope & snow), then have your equipment.
like the old saying goes: if you bring an umbrella, it won't rain, but if it does, you're all set. if you don't bring it, if it does rain, well, you are fucked.

[Yossarian]

Agree with all of the sentiments, but disagree on some of the details and the final results. How interesting! But it may be the result of a slightly different read of the question asked. I will try to clarify my thoughts somewhat.

In many places/cases, there is usually a time in the year when the snowpack is fully consolidated, and the risk becomes one of wet releases and glide avies, which in turn are statistically dwarfed at that point by rockfall risk. I'm not talking about spring skiing, I'm thinking here of early summer, ie June/July depending on where you are. Perhaps I'm also thinking about this only for the terrain I frequent, which may be by definition (because I'm no extremo mtn dood) that much less exposed, etc, etc, but when the game truly becomes one solely of wet slides and rockfall, it's all about timing and exposure, which is why I get up early, move efficiently, manage the hazards, and get out before mid-day. I suppose I am also therefore thinking of my standard day trips. This is a good clarification exercise.

Now, the comment about possibly being out longer than expected, even in a day trip, even in known, relatively safe terrain, is an excellent one. It's always possible that you or a partner have a mishap, and end up exposed when you weren't otherwise prepared.

That being said, although it's only after repeated trips to an area/line, and after repeated checks of the snowpack whereby I've satisfied myself that things are in good shape, and during days where the weather has given good cold overnight freezes, etc, etc, etc, ie the conditions are right, my partners and I will indeed leave the full gear at home at times.

Early morning in mid-July on a familiar south facing PacNW volcano slope with low rockfall hazard no crevasses and no terrain traps after successive nights of hard freeze, and you won't see me with my avy gear.

All that being said, basically, in practice you're gonna have your gear with you most of the year, because the window for those kinds of conditions is pretty small, and it gets smaller as you get towards more continental climes.

Hope that is a better illustration of my feelings on the topic.

[Yossarian]

EDIT Finished

[cj001f]

Early morning in mid-July on a familiar south facing PacNW volcano slope with low rockfall hazard no crevasses and no terrain traps after successive nights of hard freeze, and you won't see me with my avy gear.

You won't see any one else with avy gear either. I leave it behind for most of the volcanos.

I noticed most of the always responses were from inland - if you've never seen a good consolidated PNW/Sierra corn pack - it's about as bomber as a snowpack gets. It's had at least a month to work out the meltwater kinks, most of the thermal issues have stabilized, it's bomber. For safety reasons you could probably leave beacon, probe, shovel at home. Shovel's a useful tool to have in the snow for other reasons.

Between the CSAC & Avalanche.org I could only find 1 record of an avalanche in the past decade between May & Oct 1 that didn't involve new snow. An artificially triggered one in Colorado
http://www.avalanche.org/accidnt96-4.htm#July%205

[Rusty Nails]

I have skied summer snow without avie gear. Essentially skiing draws in June/July in conditions described pretty well be Yoss. However, I now carry my gear always. It's not much gear and I appreciate the habit of carrying it. Same reason I generally wear my beacon in-bounds -- you never know if you are going to step out and it's just a good habit to develop.

[Telenater]

By mid-May, most of the stuff in the Sierra that still has significant snow on it is pretty stable. I do generally still carry my avy gear with me, but I'm less anal about it.

As was mentioned before, by the time Spring really gets going, I'm more concerned with taking a long fall and am carrying crampons and an ice axe because if you fall on ripe corn, your chances of stopping without an ice axe are pretty slim on steep slopes (also make sure you can do a self arrest with a ski pole).

Also pay close attention to the weather. Wet slides are a risk though a minor one compared to winter slabs. If you start sinking in deep (boot height) get off the slope pronto, it's cooked until it gets a good refreeze. If the sky is overcast, expect major warming with an earlier chance of wet slides. Beware of rocks as they concentrate warming near them. If you've got fresh snow, wait for it to melt down a bit and consolidate. Skiing will suck until it does anyways. Be very cautious if it doesn't freeze at night. The nightly freeze is what makes corn stable(er).

And last, watch out for your slough or for the slough of others. It may not look that deep, but it's a lot of mass when it's wet and I've seen people take rides towards cliffs because of it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

. Beware of rocks as they concentrate warming near them.

yup....especially if you are bootpacking up. Very easy to step near one and break through to your knee or hip or whatever. Also goes for the sides of a rock wall lined cooly...the snow will start melting out from underneath and peeling away from there first due to the radiant heat from the rock.

good info in this thread all around.

[char]

Do you bring all your gear when you're going after corn? Or is it just excessive?

It's a subjective judgement, just like carrying BC gear in the winter is. (IMO, and yes, I know I'm probably going to get flamed for saying that.) It totally depends on your personal willingness to take risks.


For me it's a lot like wearing a lifejacket on a boat, sometimes I am perfectly comfortable being on the foredeck without one, but other times I won't leave the cabin without it. And there are many people who will argue that you need to wear a lifejacket at all times on a boat, just like people who will argue that you need BC gear all the time.

Similar argument when it comes to solo sailing and solo BC.

[Stoysluttie1]

Late season, early spring, i always have concern for glide slide, wet point release activity. Like Yossarian...alpine start to hit the frozen snow and then wait until 10-11.30 to start skiing..like Telenater said...im more concerned with being taken for a ride by wet snow over rocks, into trees, or downslope and my line is screwed.

But mid-summer when the snowpack is dwindling..don't think i'll take the gear with me...most of the time i'm by myself. It usually ends up being the decision of the group in any summer outing...i like to go lite, which could have detrimental consequences but.....

[gramps]

I found myself on a slabby powder snowpack in the Wasatch in the middle of June this past summer. So ya never know. I'd have to have been to the spot previously and known there was nothing there except consolidated corn before I'd leave avy gear behind. It doesn't weigh that much and it's just like second nature now...

[cj001f]

I found myself on a slabby powder snowpack in the Wasatch in the middle of June this past summer. So ya never know. I'd have to have been to the spot previously and known there was nothing there except consolidated corn before I'd leave avy gear behind. It doesn't weigh that much and it's just like second nature now...

After a week of 50F+ and sun you think your going to find fucking powder? HELL NO!

Like all season - follow the weather all season.

[AltaPowderDaze]

After a week of 50F+ and sun you think your going to find fucking powder? HELL NO!

Like all season - follow the weather all season.

anything is possible in the wasatch. we had 50+ degree highs for the last week here and i found pow yesterday. there's some recrytallized down at protected mid elevations also. our weak layers here also seem to persist and persevere thru much of everything we throw at em, except bombs.

[LegoSkier]

I think the main point is to be smart and think about what you are doing. Spring/summer snow in the Sierras is a very predictable animal. In 12 seasons of Sierra backcountry skiing I was by myself (with no avy gear obviously) a majority of the time and never have I felt I was doing something stupid or dangerous. But this is with some caveats of course. If the snow pack was anything but completely consolidated corn I would play it extremely safe and stick to lower angle stuff. And like Yossarian and Telenater said, get off of stuff before wet slides become a factor. Spring days are not for skiing all day. Get going by 6 and get back by 1 (at the latest). Go bouldering or fishing the rest of the day.
Also, be aware of what is under and or in the snow pack. Remember that liquid water will seep down through the pack as snow melts and if it hits a smooth impenetrable surface it may lubricate the pack on that surface and cause dangerous conditions. Ask yourself, what is the ground like under the pack. Is it a glacier polished granite dome? If so maybe you don't want to ski there. Caltrans dosen't plow 120 by Teneya lake in Yosemite for this very reason. Plow drivers have been killed there by late spring avys on smooth granite domes. Also think about what happened earlier in the year. Was there a big rain event where you are skiing. If so dig a pit and check. On new years day in 1997 a huge rain storm moved in to the Sierra. It rained up to 13000 feet and caused major flooding in Yosemite, Reno, Tahoe and all along the range. In late march that year I did a 3 day trip into Rock Creek south of Mammoth. My partner and I skied into base camp. The snow appeared a perfect spring stable pack but we remembered the rain event earlier in the year and dug a pit and found a 2" thick clear ice crust formed by this rain 2 feet down in the pack. Performing a ruschtblock test it failed on the 1st hop. We didn't ski anything steep that trip. Later that may I was skiing on Tioga pass. I was skiing low angle stuff on False White mountain. Another party tackled a steep chute on Mt Dana (Solstice I think) and it slid on them on that very rain crust killing two.

[Ireallyliketoski2]

Why not just take it with you all the time? It's better to have it with you and not need it then want it but wish you had taken it even though you thought earlier that you wouldn't need it. Plus you look core when you are wearing a beacon, a shovel is good to have for building kickers over bergschrunds, and a probe can easily be converted into an portable cell tower to increase your cell phone range (with minor hardware additions).

[Hicks]

I'm pretty much in line with Yossarian about this one. In late spring/early summer conditions I leave the gear behind very most of the times if conditions allow. Especially on multiday tours with big verticals to be ascended I meanwhile try to keep the weight I have to drag along to the very minimum. On that one my viewpoint is different to some others here.