PSA: Mount your own fucking skis.

[TahoeJosh]

Get a drill guide and clamp it. I used to use this one from binding freedom https://www.bindingfreedom.com/drill...elf-centering/

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That Tognar one looks cool. I use this guy. I don’t bother to clamp. I drill with the ski raised above the worktop (e.g., with a ski vice or happy Norwegian stand). I push the bit through the guide to use the tip of the drill bit to center the bit on the dimple, then simply slide the guide block down to force the drill to perpendicular. I “clamp” by simply sandwiching the block to the ski with my left hand (which is why it’s important to have the ski raised).

[jhyatt]

If you mean standard ski drill bits then yes - the key is the size of the shank - 5/16” size drill bit guide - see pic - I’ve got other ski mounting bits besides those pictures and they all work - including the 12ab tap for metal skis…




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Ordered along with the center finder widget

[EWG]

Ok, we've talked a ton about how the "you can't use the whole DIN range, you have to be in the middle" is crap. I believe it's crap.

That said, I'm about to put a DIN 4 or 4.5 skier on Attack 14s, which have a range from 4-14. We confident that's a good idea?

[XXX-er]

i think i would especially if that skier is a goer like my oldest kid was always going hard so it was never any probelm putting him on anything and i seem to remember him going up 30cms as one increment

[ktoor]

thanks to spending too much time on this forum i got up the courage to mount my own fucking skis. this is all very new for me and i went the dentist route with jig.




it was a pair of skis i wouldnt mind screwing up on but still had me a little nervous. all in all id consider it a success! basically learned it all from this thread so thanks everyone. i drilled, i tapped, i countersunk. my learnings:

- wood glue is (probably) fine
- when remounting/plugging holes, using a chisel/file is a really easy way to get things flush (something i found hard to do with just a razor blade as some suggested)

issues i ran into/outstanding questions:

- one heel hole was close to a plug (a few mm); oh well.
- on one ski the boot alignment wasnt straight; i loosened the toe screws, locked in the boot and tightened them again and am letting it dry like that. the boot goes in but its just a mm or two off center; oh well (dont think itll impact RV)
- one toe screw seems like it would keep spinning if i were to keep tightening; should i get some steel wool, take out the screw and with more glue/steel wool rescrew this one?



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[XXX-er]

thanks to spending too much time on this forum i got up the courage to mount my own fucking skis. this is all very new for me and i went the dentist route with jig.


issues i ran into/outstanding questions:

- one heel hole was close to a plug (a few mm); oh well.
- on one ski the boot alignment wasnt straight; i loosened the toe screws, locked in the boot and tightened them again and am letting it dry like that. the boot goes in but its just a mm or two off center; oh well (dont think itll impact RV)
- one toe screw seems like it would keep spinning if i were to keep tightening; should i get some steel wool, take out the screw and with more glue/steel wool rescrew this one?
l]

Even with a jig drill the toe of any frame or tech binding so toe piece is being held by one toe screw only, lock the boot into the binding, let the boot or binding find its happy place in the heel piece, drill the rest of the screws and it should drop in the heel piece cuz thats were the heel/ heel piece was when you drilled the rest of the holes

I've always used FG/ epoxy in a spinner ( I duno if wood glue would hold ? ) tighten it down until just before the screw is about to spin and let it cure overnight, if you can crank it down the next day it ain't a spinner anymore

[ktoor]

Even with a jig drill the toe of any frame or tech binding so toe piece is being held by one toe screw only, lock the boot into the binding, let the boot or binding find its happy place in the heel piece, drill the rest of the screws and it should drop in the heel piece cuz thats were the heel/ heel piece was when you drilled the rest of the holes

I've always used FG/ epoxy in a spinner ( I duno if wood glue would hold ? ) tighten it down until just before the screw is about to spin and let it cure overnight, if you can crank it down the next day it ain't a spinner anymore

just to clarify, you would mount the heel first, the. just drill one hole for the toe (with the jig), then use a screw without glue/epoxy, mark the other three holes, remove screw and tow piece, drill the rest of the toes and mount it?

not gonne move the toe piece now obviously just for future. hopefully that few mm of llay is fine.

as for the spinner, ill remove it and throw some epoxy in there just to be safw. i will likely be moving these bindings to another ski so was hesitant to use epoxy but for one screw cant be too bad.

thanks for the tips!!


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[XXX-er]

just to clarify, you would mount the heel first, the. just drill one hole for the toe (with the jig), then use a screw without glue/epoxy, mark the other three holes, remove screw and tow piece, drill the rest of the toes and mount it?

not gonne move the toe piece now obviously just for future. hopefully that few mm of llay is fine.

as for the spinner, ill remove it and throw some epoxy in there just to be safw. i will likely be moving these bindings to another ski so was hesitant to use epoxy but for one screw cant be too bad.

thanks for the tips!!


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yeah ^^ so back in the day I asked ski bud who owned the BC ski store how to mount a frame or tech and he said mount the heel piece dead center, mount the toe by 1 screw and let the toe find its happy place, it was a eureka moment for me

If you use epoxy and the screw won't let go or for ANY screw that won't let go just hit that screw with some heat from a soldering iron BEFORE you strip the head and it will let go.

If the screw is insdie a binding run a 1/4 "drill bit shank first on the screw at high speed and the heat of friction on the screw wiil do same

[waveshello]

I hope you got that answer on copy paste somewhere, haha. I started using that method and I like it. When you just rely on your center line and a paper template aligned to that center line, then holes center punched through that paper template, you introduce a lot of opportunities for error, and errors of rotation at the toe piece are magnified at the heel.

To flesh out the xxx method a little further... I use a paper template to mark the heels and one toe hole. Drill those holes, install the heel. I put a piece of painters tape under where the other three holes will be made. Install the toe with the one screw, put a boot in it, lower onto the heel pins. Now the toe is perfectly aligned with the heel. Tighten your one screw a little bit. Check alignment again. Using a pen with a small tip, held vertically, scribe a circle inside of each of the other three binding holes. Take the toe off, make a dot in the center of each of the three circles you just drew. Use a center punch to dimple each dot through the painters tape. Remove tape and drill. Hasn't failed me yet, thanks xxx'er.

[caulfield]

you know those studies about 5 consecutive days of the same Blues Clues episode being good for kids' brains? XXX-er's repeated anecdotes are the adult version of that for me. And I also use his mounting method.

...
- one heel hole was close to a plug (a few mm); oh well.
...

One thing you might want to think about on a mount like that is putting the heel piece further back and running it in the front of the adjustment range. Would be nice to get a little more breathing room from the old holes. I dunno exactly how to do it with a jig, but probably set it at BSL+10mm and then use a mount line -5mm from the line you want.

For the drill block discussion, I'm not convinced a perfectly perpendicular hole is super important for non-insert mounts. With a paper template, the holes aren't usually in *exactly* the right spot anyway and the screw is going to compensate with a bit of angle. Despite the length of this thread, it's just wood screws in wood. Which I'm sure someone has already said (see length of thread). Basically I think you and the kid have done a solid job and your freehand is good enough for jazz. But let us know if you notice a difference with the guide.

[kid-kapow]

Ok, we've talked a ton about how the "you can't use the whole DIN range, you have to be in the middle" is crap. I believe it's crap.

That said, I'm about to put a DIN 4 or 4.5 skier on Attack 14s, which have a range from 4-14. We confident that's a good idea?

it is crap.

The spring is linear (I've never heard of an alpine binding with progressive springs, as is used in for instance mountain biking), meaning that is no more accurate in the middle than at the ends. So if it is accurate - aka releases at the value it is supposed to in the middle - it will be consistent throughout. The preload does not alter the curve / progressivity of the spring, it just adjusts the break away threshold aka the initial force required to have the spring move. The curve will be linear aka a straight line regardless.

Yeah, I know that the marketing blurb tells you to splurge on a higher din binding for "safety", but the ONLY difference between a Pivot 12 og 14 or 15 and 18 is the spring. So unless you need the lower/higher end, having a heavier spring yields no performance benefit at all outside of saving/gaining a few grams.

take this for what is worth - it is an opinion. I do not claim to know everything, so there might be bindings out there that works differently. Pivots do not though.

[ktoor]

you know those studies about 5 consecutive days of the same Blues Clues episode being good for kids' brains? XXX-er's repeated anecdotes are the adult version of that for me. And I also use his mounting method.

One thing you might want to think about on a mount like that is putting the heel piece further back and running it in the front of the adjustment range. Would be nice to get a little more breathing room from the old holes. I dunno exactly how to do it with a jig, but probably set it at BSL+10mm and then use a mount line -5mm from the line you want.

honestly this was just pure laziness. i lined it all up and couldnt see the plugs in the guide holes. instead of marking and checking how close just said screw it and drilled.

i was considering remounting the heel piece but thought since its the inside heel screw (closer to boot center) and im at the short end of the adjustment range, forces on that screw shouldnt be THAT high. would have to be an odd angle to have enough force to compromise that screws bite? but maybe im out to lunch.


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[XXX-er]

you know those studies about 5 consecutive days of the same Blues Clues episode being good for kids' brains? XXX-er's repeated anecdotes are the adult version of that for me. And I also use his mounting method.



One thing you might want to think about on a mount like that is putting the heel piece further back and running it in the front of the adjustment range. Would be nice to get a little more breathing room from the old holes. I dunno exactly how to do it with a jig, but probably set it at BSL+10mm and then use a mount line -5mm from the line you want.

For the drill block discussion, I'm not convinced a perfectly perpendicular hole is super important for non-insert mounts. With a paper template, the holes aren't usually in *exactly* the right spot anyway and the screw is going to compensate with a bit of angle. Despite the length of this thread, it's just wood screws in wood. Which I'm sure someone has already said (see length of thread). Basically I think you and the kid have done a solid job and your freehand is good enough for jazz. But let us know if you notice a difference with the guide.

you know how many times I have repeated these tips ?

just < 32459 sure i could suggest use the fucking search function but I have found it really doesnt work that well so I pedantically post the same tips over and over and i got now job so i got time, I'm glad the tips work for you the tech or frame mount was really courtesty of ski bud Brian AKA the Briantologist

I agree the wood screw hole in wood doesnt have to be super perpendicular altho I DO think you want it very perpendicular if you re doing inserts which I never do,

I also agree the whole thread is in fact just good layout to put screws in wood in the right place, IME the wine bottle cork for a drill guage seems to make the holes more perpendicular if you can grab a turning drill bit with your fingers as opposed to just holding a drill by the handle

I am pretty sure I posted the use of heat to break loose a screw twice yesturday

[XXX-er]

I hope you got that answer on copy paste somewhere, haha. I started using that method and I like it. When you just rely on your center line and a paper template aligned to that center line, then holes center punched through that paper template, you introduce a lot of opportunities for error, and errors of rotation at the toe piece are magnified at the heel.

To flesh out the xxx method a little further... I use a paper template to mark the heels and one toe hole. Drill those holes, install the heel. I put a piece of painters tape under where the other three holes will be made. Install the toe with the one screw, put a boot in it, lower onto the heel pins. Now the toe is perfectly aligned with the heel. Tighten your one screw a little bit. Check alignment again. Using a pen with a small tip, held vertically, scribe a circle inside of each of the other three binding holes. Take the toe off, make a dot in the center of each of the three circles you just drew. Use a center punch to dimple each dot through the painters tape. Remove tape and drill. Hasn't failed me yet, thanks xxx'er.

yeah thats ^^ pretty much exactly how I do it ^^ I have drilled at least one other hole to lock the binding with the boot in the binding but I like using the binding to draw circles in the exact center of the binding holes, center punch the the exact middle with a 4" DW screw, drill a small pilot hole with the smallest drill I havent broken yet, drill the rest with a 5/16ths and wine cork for a drillstop

never mind a flacid paper template in this last instance Ktoor used a shinny plum jig and it was still off, in any case a jig or template is still great for at least locating the whole thing you are trying to mount on the ski

[TahoeJosh]

I find that the guide block helps keep the bit from wandering, too. I used to freehand drill, but I’ve been a guideblock convert since the first time I used one.

[waxoff]

I can't understand how you get a drill bit to wander. If you use an awl, just push it through the top sheet (and through the paper template if that's what you're using) . If it's just a teenie tiny mark, use something a bit more blunt to enlarge it, before engaging the drill.

Whenever you use a hammer to punch, you risk it jumping off target.

Now, if you made a properly enough wide hole in the topsheet with your hand tools, your drill bit will never ever wander, even if a hand held drill is used.

Just to be clear, if you think you need a drill press to drill your effin skis. Maybe you should ask your shop or your wife to do it for you.

Jeeezzz!

[J. Barron DeJong]

it is crap.

The spring is linear (I've never heard of an alpine binding with progressive springs, as is used in for instance mountain biking), meaning that is no more accurate in the middle than at the ends. So if it is accurate - aka releases at the value it is supposed to in the middle - it will be consistent throughout. The preload does not alter the curve / progressivity of the spring, it just adjusts the break away threshold aka the initial force required to have the spring move. The curve will be linear aka a straight line regardless.

Yeah, I know that the marketing blurb tells you to splurge on a higher din binding for "safety", but the ONLY difference between a Pivot 12 og 14 or 15 and 18 is the spring. So unless you need the lower/higher end, having a heavier spring yields no performance benefit at all outside of saving/gaining a few grams.

take this for what is worth - it is an opinion. I do not claim to know everything, so there might be bindings out there that works differently. Pivots do not though.

To play devils advocate:

Using your mountain bike example, if you have a coil sprung rear shock and want the same force at bottom out, you can either have a properly spec’d spring that requires very little preload, or you could be way under sprung, requiring you to crank down that preload.

On the properly spec’d spring you’d have good responsiveness off the top, and good support through the range of travel. With a severely undersized spring with a ton of preload you’d need a lot of force to get moving initially, but then blow through the travel quickly once things get moving.

So couldn’t something similar happen with a binding? If you need the same torque at release (akin to bottom out force above) then could the binding behave differently if you are at the bottom of the din range (little preload) vs. at the top (lots of preload)?

If using the bottom of the din range, the binding would start moving earlier but take more effort to move through the elastic travel, whereas at the top of the din range you’d be locked in place while applying more force, and then once things start moving you blow through the elastic travel more easily?

[TahoeJosh]

I can't understand how you get a drill bit to wander. If you use an awl, just push it through the top sheet (and through the paper template if that's what you're using) . If it's just a teenie tiny mark, use something a bit more blunt to enlarge it, before engaging the drill.

Whenever you use a hammer to punch, you risk it jumping off target.

Now, if you made a properly enough wide hole in the topsheet with your hand tools, your drill bit will never ever wander, even if a hand held drill is used.

Just to be clear, if you think you need a drill press to drill your effin skis. Maybe you should ask your shop or your wife to do it for you.

Jeeezzz!

No drill press. Just a $10-20 guide block. Worth it to me to ensure a straight hole that is right on the mark.



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[altacoup]

How close have people put new holes to pre existing quiver killers? It seems I should be able to go fairly close but looking for those with experience before drilling. Looks like it’ll be 7mm center of quiver killed mount to center of new hole.

[XXX-er]

Its been a day and nobody answered you

I don't use quiver killers but 1 cm between holes is pretty much the rule of thumb for hole spacing altho people will tell you they have done all kinds of things and it worked

[singlesline]

Ok, we've talked a ton about how the "you can't use the whole DIN range, you have to be in the middle" is crap. I believe it's crap.

That said, I'm about to put a DIN 4 or 4.5 skier on Attack 14s, which have a range from 4-14. We confident that's a good idea?

The only thing I'd be wary of is step in difficulty. Some of those bigger bindings are just harder to step into (even at the low end of the adjustment range) because they are simply designed for bigger people. Not a big deal if you're talking like...an excited kid with lots of energy who will happily kick their boot at the binding until it works after crashing in soft snow. But maybe more of a big deal if you are talking about a nervous kid or a spouse who gets frustrated/flustered when things don't work smoothly.

That being said, Attack heels are pretty easy to step into so it should be fine.
If you were trying the same with Marker Griffons I might say it is a risky move and you should go find a cheap pair of Squire 10 or Squire 11 TCX demos with the easy-mode heels--made a big difference for my wife!

[XXX-er]

I couldn't step into the marker barons even after ACL recovery and I was skiing again, it took a couple years of PT to be able to get the heel down and i think all the marker product might be a problem for smaller people

[TahoeJosh]

I recommend emailing Quiver Killer and/or Binding Freedom for advice regarding spacing. Because the original holes contain the SS inserts, I’d think they are plenty rigid and could therefore potentially allow for a shorter than 1cm mounting distance to the new hole.

That said, it looks like you’re looking for a super close mount at 3mm or less if the center-to-center distance is about 7mm. Unless you are trying to fit the new holes between two sets of existing holes (third mount?), I’d probably just shift the new mount by 1/2 a cm or so.

[Shorty_J]

You keep regurgitating your one data point about your buddy’s one remounted ski…..Marcel Hirscher can feel the difference between different colours of boot plastics! so there is that.
Skier skill and snow conditions are definitely factors in sensitivity to changes in mount point.

So much of this.

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[Muggydude]

How close have people put new holes to pre existing quiver killers? It seems I should be able to go fairly close but looking for those with experience before drilling. Looks like it’ll be 7mm center of quiver killed mount to center of new hole.

Too close. The inserts themselves are like 7-8mm in outer diameter? They’ll be touching.

10mm center to center is the general rule of thumb for normal screws, and 15mm for inserts. I’d feel comfortable doing 10mm, particularly if it’s a ski with a metal top sheep or really hard wood core, and/or you’re 10mm from a normal plugged hole (not another insert).


Re the discussion about mounting the toe with one screw then drilling the other 3… Yall been smoking too much? That is Introducing so much more room for the toe piece to shift and be off-angle when you’re taking the boot in/out. Even if it doesn’t shift, there’s enough slop and tolerance in the bindings front to back that it’s more likely that you will think everything is square and aligned, but the toe is really actually a few degrees off angle. Particularly because on most toe pieces you cannot access all of holes with the boot in it to mark them. Also a terrible idea on alpine boots because locking in the heel will put too much forward pressure on the single toe screw, maybe on pin bindings it’s fine, but that doesn’t fix the alignment issues.

Just be careful to align the front and rear piece of paper very parallel/collinear (use a ruler to check the lines), tape the front and rear paper templates together across the whole width top and bottom so the two paper pieces cannot pivot relative to one another.

Carefully line the template centered on the ski (I used a square wood block against the ski edges and a ruler across the top, finding the center of the ski based off the base width, not the top sheet.

Use a center punch and manually (by hand) make a divot for all 16 holes in the ski top sheet through the paper. It’s not hard to do, even on wood veneer skis. Then I take a hammer and make the divot bigger (never use the hammer first).

Then you can hand drill, use a drill press has a guide block, whatever and drill your holes

I’ve mounted at least 80 pairs of skis this way, half of those for inserts. Never once been crooked or had any alignment issues.

I will say shop jigs are way more likely to have the (whole binding) crooked or 2-3mm off center. I’ve bought a lot of skis with previous mounts that very off