PSA: Mount your own fucking skis.

[kid-kapow]

1mm = 2.6 degrees I think, so a 6-7mm difference is a huuuuuge difference in stance - even if some touring boots are a fair bit more upright than their 50/50 or resort brethern.

So yeah, binding delta is the correct place to start. I had the same realization over the last couple of years. I can adjust to a mm or two, but outside that it is almost like I can't ski.

[Fred Pabst]

Ok, JONG stuff

I’ve never really liked how my AT rig skis and am getting motivated to change it up.

I finally decided to look up the ramp angle on the AT bindings vs my alpine skis. I never considered this as I’ve never been in a position to A/B different ramp setups to understand the fuss I see on TGR about shimming toes. I just figured it was nerds nerding out.

Look HM12 (Dynafit rotation 12): 13mm delta
Salomon STH2 13: 6mm
Tyrol is Attack 13: 4mm

When I go look up something like an ATK freeraider, I find 7mm of ramp delta. Much more in line with the SHT2 & Attack

Is this the weirdness that’s annoyed me these last few years?

And the fix would either shim the AT toe? Or replace the binding with a more compatible ramp binding?

This I'm interested in.

I have two pair of Head Kore 105's. One that has a Lange RS 130/Pivot setup. The other has the Dynafit Vulcan, the old green and black model/Look HM-12. Both skis are the same length and are mounted on the rec line. I love the way the Lange/pivot set-up skis, the AT set up not as much. To me it almost feels like the Vulcan is much more upright? Has anyone ever shimmed a heel piece to create a little more forward lean? It feels like it is harder to push on the shovels with the Vulcan's.

Maybe it wont matter. I just picked up a Zero G 105 188cm that I'm going to put the HM-12 on. Will see how they ski.

[::: :::]

Thx, all, for the comments. I’ll do some testing.

[SoVT Joey]

This I'm interested in.

I have two pair of Head Kore 105's. One that has a Lange RS 130/Pivot setup. The other has the Dynafit Vulcan, the old green and black model/Look HM-12. Both skis are the same length and are mounted on the rec line. I love the way the Lange/pivot set-up skis, the AT set up not as much. To me it almost feels like the Vulcan is much more upright? Has anyone ever shimmed a heel piece to create a little more forward lean? It feels like it is harder to push on the shovels with the Vulcan's.

Maybe it wont matter. I just picked up a Zero G 105 188cm that I'm going to put the HM-12 on. Will see how they ski.

cant shim a Vulcan sole.

[Ørion]

This I'm interested in.

I have two pair of Head Kore 105's. One that has a Lange RS 130/Pivot setup. The other has the Dynafit Vulcan, the old green and black model/Look HM-12. Both skis are the same length and are mounted on the rec line. I love the way the Lange/pivot set-up skis, the AT set up not as much. To me it almost feels like the Vulcan is much more upright? Has anyone ever shimmed a heel piece to create a little more forward lean? It feels like it is harder to push on the shovels with the Vulcan's.

Maybe it wont matter. I just picked up a Zero G 105 188cm that I'm going to put the HM-12 on. Will see how they ski.

"Harder to push on the shovels" sounds like a need for a toe shim, not a heel shim. You're getting that activation point further away from the ball of your foot otherwise

[SoVT Joey]

"Harder to push on the shovels" sounds like a need for a toe shim, not a heel shim. You're getting that activation point further away from the ball of your foot otherwise

that’s not entirely true. If I don’t shim my heels on kingpins I can’t get on the shovel of my ski. It has to do with how each person is built anatomically, their ability and and how they learn to ski.

[Ørion]

Totally, and with the understandable caveat that armchair quarterbacking biomechanics over the Internet is definitely a fool's errand, he was comparing a relatively flat Pivot to a touring binding that already has 10mm+ higher delta. If the issue is binding delta, even more isn't likely the answer.

Especially given his Alpine boot has less forward lean than his touring boot in their stock configurations (which might have been adjusted obviously).

Easy way to get a ballpark idea though would be to click into the skis and place magazines under the heel or toe areas (under the ski itself, not between boot and binding) and see which way feels more "planted" with a solid three points of contact under the foot.

[Fred Pabst]

"Harder to push on the shovels" sounds like a need for a toe shim, not a heel shim. You're getting that activation point further away from the ball of your foot otherwise

Thanks! Very interesting. Feel is not always real. It feels like I need to shim up the heal, but in reality I need to lift the toe up to create a little more ankle flex. I'm going to give the toe shim a try.

[PeachesNCream]

Yeah, I agree. The way I think of it, is if you shim the toe, it gives you something to push against.


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[waveshello]

Don't Vulcans have a ~17 degree forward lean? Lange RS has like 14 degrees? And the dynafits have a crazy high delta vs. your pivots, I think the heel pins are +13mm.

I know what you're experiencing because I used to ski Mercuries on verticals, and it was an almost unskiable combination. It felt like I was standing on the ski in high heels, which instantly put me in the back seat.

[::: :::]

More ramp questions, sorry...is there a thread on this already? I can post there but haven't really found it yet.

I measured with digital calipers, but there's a certain amount of eyeballing to target the common spots. This is what I get when I measure my gear:

Boot is 27.5; BSL is 310
All skis mounted on the recommended line

Look HM12
Pin hgt - Toe: 36mm
Pin hgt - Heel: 51mm
Delta = 15mm

Sole hgt - Toe [@ leading edge of sole AFD block]: 23mm
Sole Hgt - Heel [@ heel AFD]: 29mm
Delta = 6mm


Salomon STH2 13
Pin hgt - Toe: 32mm
Pin hgt - Heel: 45mm
Delta = 13mm

Sole hgt - Toe [@ leading edge of sole AFD block]: 18mm
Sole Hgt - Heel [@ presumptive touring heel “AFD” location]: 25mm
Delta = 7mm

Pin


Alpine


1st: Am I measuring the right things?
If so: It actually doesn't seem like the ramps are much different at all. 2mm of differential in pin deltas; 1mm in sole height differential. That's likely within my accuracy tolerance...

And ^^^ this seems at odds with how I read about ramp delta online. Various online lists indicate delta numbers like in my 1st post with more like 6-7mm of differential between the bindings.

Barring some fundamental error, I'm thinking whatever my issue is with my AT rig, it's not ramp.

Maybe just need a lesson
Thanks for any assistance!

[waveshello]

Published list of tech binding pin heights/deltas:

https://skimo.co/pin-heights

Interesting. I think your measurement method is valid. The STH2 delta from toe AFD to heel is +6mm, but each boot has it's own characteristics that influence the actual delta of your foot over the ski.

I wouldn't have expected the STH2 to net out so similarly to the dynafits, but seeing is believing I guess.

[waveshello]

Might of missed it earlier, but you're enjoying skiing the STH2 rig with the Roxas? Or are you skiing those with a different boot?

[::: :::]

Might of missed it earlier, but you're enjoying skiing the STH2 rig with the Roxas? Or are you skiing those with a different boot?

Yeah, pretty happy -- new this season (tho old version). previous boot was a Lupo ax120 w/ 130 tongue. It seemed like a natural next boot. So far so good.

[SoVT Joey]

More ramp questions, sorry...is there a thread on this already? I can post there but haven't really found it yet.

I measured with digital calipers, but there's a certain amount of eyeballing to target the common spots. This is what I get when I measure my gear:

Boot is 27.5; BSL is 310
All skis mounted on the recommended line

Look HM12
Pin hgt - Toe: 36mm
Pin hgt - Heel: 51mm
Delta = 15mm

Sole hgt - Toe [@ leading edge of sole AFD block]: 23mm
Sole Hgt - Heel [@ heel AFD]: 29mm
Delta = 6mm


Salomon STH2 13
Pin hgt - Toe: 32mm
Pin hgt - Heel: 45mm
Delta = 13mm

Sole hgt - Toe [@ leading edge of sole AFD block]: 18mm
Sole Hgt - Heel [@ presumptive touring heel “AFD” location]: 25mm
Delta = 7mm

Pin


Alpine


1st: Am I measuring the right things?
If so: It actually doesn't seem like the ramps are much different at all. 2mm of differential in pin deltas; 1mm in sole height differential. That's likely within my accuracy tolerance...

And ^^^ this seems at odds with how I read about ramp delta online. Various online lists indicate delta numbers like in my 1st post with more like 6-7mm of differential between the bindings.

Barring some fundamental error, I'm thinking whatever my issue is with my AT rig, it's not ramp.

Maybe just need a lesson
Thanks for any assistance!

this is exactly what I did and the exact reason I ended up shimming heels on kingpins to match jesters. I also shimmed an alpinist almost 3/8” of an inch to match jesters. Both at setups then responded and acted like alpine. I shimmed 1mm to start on my kingpins and ended up adding another 1mm after testing. Try shimming the heel. Everyone here told me I was wrong and to shim the toes. My measurements told me differently and that every one here was wrong. What you are doing in real life is actually figuring out the issue with proof, the printed lists are pretty useless when comparing at and alpine clamps.

[::: :::]

I think my numbers would suggest shimming the toe, but otherwise that makes sense.
Maybe my 2mm is the pea in the mattress.
I have a buddy with a laser cutter so next step is make some 0.5 & 1mm shims — is there anyway to somehow not make screws for each variation? I’m thinking: no, if I’m going to ski them. I guess if I started on the upper range first, I could grind the same set of screws down as I went along.
(Almost seems worthwhile to throw some inserts in there too for this effort…)

[SoVT Joey]

I think my numbers would suggest shimming the toe, but otherwise that makes sense.
Maybe my 2mm is the pea in the mattress.
I have a buddy with a laser cutter so next step is make some 0.5 & 1mm shims — is there anyway to somehow not make screws for each variation? I’m thinking: no, if I’m going to ski them.
(Almost seems worthwhile to throw some inserts in there too for this effort…)

you either need to shim the heel of the look 1mm or the toe of the sth 1mm. I would just make a 1mm shim for the heel of the look and be gentle on your screws and use hood wood glue.

[::: :::]

you either need to shim the heel of the look 1mm or the toe of the sth 1mm. I would just make a 1mm shim for the heel of the look and be gentle on your screws and use hood wood glue.

for clarity, not arguing...i wanna make sure i'm hitting the right thing

I'm seeing more delta in the Look binding (15mm), than the STH2 (13mm). [just using the pin numbers] Meaning the Look heel is higher than the STH2 heel, relative to toe position. So shimming the toe of the Look will reduce this ramp to match the STH2. Or am I getting this backwards?

Your 1mm suggestion would make it all simpler. If I feel improvement but not satisfaction, I can pursue it further.
Might even be able to keep screws...as long as I've still got 6mm of screw embedment length in the ski I should be good?

[dcpnz]

I don’t understand why the difference in your deltas is opposite depending on measuring pins or boot sole. Should they not be same/similar? Measurement error??

[SoVT Joey]

for clarity, not arguing...i wanna make sure i'm hitting the right thing

I'm seeing more delta in the Look binding (15mm), than the STH2 (13mm). [just using the pin numbers] Meaning the Look heel is higher than the STH2 heel, relative to toe position. So shimming the toe of the Look will reduce this ramp to match the STH2. Or am I getting this backwards?

Your 1mm suggestion would make it all simpler. If I feel improvement but not satisfaction, I can pursue it further.
Might even be able to keep screws...as long as I've still got 6mm of screw embedment length in the ski I should be good?

you said the look is 6mm. The sth 7mm. Make the look 7mm. Add to the heel 1mm. Stack height of overall binding is irrelevant in comparison to your numbers. Match your delta measurements.

[::: :::]

I don’t understand why the difference in your deltas is opposite depending on measuring pins or boot sole. Should they not be same/similar? Measurement error??

Y, me too...likely just accuracy of measurement. I'm guessing I'm only good within one mm anyway

you said the look is 6mm. The sth 7mm. Make the look 7mm. Add to the heel 1mm. Stack height of overall binding is irrelevant in comparison to your numbers. Match your delta measurements.

I see...per dcpnz's comment, we're different cuz that is me reading the pin deltas & you the sole deltas...we're both right ...thank you for clarifying

[AlpiNord]

RE shims, screws, inserts & accurate measuring, it seems like a good idea to go ahead and install inserts if you are going to be trying various shims and heights to get things dialed. M5 machine screws are available anywhere and in 2mm increments. Don’t worry about pozi drive screws for testing. You can grind panheads to low heads and flatheads to small heads easily.

How well would something like a profile gauge tool assist for accurately measuring and then laying out the heights on graph paper to record and compare?

I just printed a pair of 4mm Pivot toe shims for someone to test out pressuring ski tips better. If this goes back and forth to try different thicknesses (or heels), having inserts would definitely have been the call.

The other wild card would be footbeds, liners etc and actual foot angle and elevation in different boots.


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[waveshello]

Good rule of thumb: If you're looking for shims for a dynafit heel, you might want to double check your measurements or your BAC.

[TripleT]

(Have not read back through for relevant comments)

Huge recommendation for a 12AB tap. I’ve mounted dozens of skis, and have had a handful of spinners. Finally bought a 12AB tap and makes a huge difference. Screws go in like butter, and torque down real tight. Worth the cost and extra mounting effort

[::: :::]

profile gauge

Don’t have one but I bet I have a friend that does

I am def going to reassess/remeasure a few more times before messing with the mount — can’t start from bad data

Appreciate the upvote on inserts/screws