Wasatch Conditions 11-12

[amox]

Here's another ob of a nice roof line.

W facing, 9K, sugary.

Yeah there was a bit of sluff on steeper stuff, but nothing unmanageable. Great skiing with you Porter!

[Wolfmansbro]

Millcreek20111211 by jwolfski, on Flickr

about 6+ inches of surface hoar scattered throughout upper millcreek

[Xover]

Word from Alta Snow Safety is there are facets even growing on groomers in places. I know that isn't a bc ob, but just tells you how scary it is gonna be around here when we do finally get any kind of load on our snowpack

[Johnny Deep]

We blew most of Hammerhead out on Saturday (under the closed Supreme Chairs). Spooky. We knew it was going to move, steep. One ski cut did it in. Exited via the bed surface.

Clear Wasatch Diamonds are everywhere.

[Trackhead]

about 6+ inches of surface hoar scattered throughout upper millcreek

Which means I'll be doing probably more of this this year. Fuck it.

[Long Duck Dong]

I dug a pit on a north facing shady rollover near the top of Patsy Marley on Saturday and found a 3" surface crust forming that sheared pretty clean. Covered in surface hoar too. It didn't scare me that much, but underneath it was a good 8"+ of sugary facets that will not sustain any serious snow weight when it snows. The whole snowpack where we were was nothing more than 24" anyway. Indeed, it is going to be worth monitoring closely when we do get our snow.

[tyfalk]

Great shots of the surface hoar guys. I haven't seen that much of it in upper LCC. Any maggots bootpack Flagstaff today? A few buddy's of mine from the A lodge went up to try to break up some of the snowpack on Flagstaff for UDOT. I would have been game if I didn't have some other stuff to do early this morning. Sounded like they got compensated fairly well.

[skifishbum]

other canyon obs include a snow safety report of some serious smashed ribs from rocks in the meadows last week
a few pics/obs from cardiff sun


ice spiders


hoar on a stick

got smokes?? or crampons
smilin chicas

hippie messages

tubular

yall looked familiar
this cardif bowl and ivory all pretty tracked

powder p says ivory skiin best
stopped by slags place

turned on the snow spigot

left a few gummis on the skin track for my crew

and low and behold i found just what I needed after a tough day of extreme sloshoein

thanks bmc IOU
put a load on this mess of unsupportive suggary crap that is our snowpack and it's gonna be quite interestin

[getoutside]

about 6+ inches of surface hoar scattered throughout upper millcreek

found the same early saturday. saw depths ranging from 24-30" with that 2-3" crust layer separating all the sugar. no bueno.

[kbowm]

tubular

cool to see that photo! That was just about the end of the line for me... there are still plenty of rocks in there.
saw the hippie peace messages on the way out, I wish I'd seen the gummy bears!

[salida]

Which one of you guys was playing the hits from 1969 from his jacket?

[amox]

cool to see that photo! That was just about the end of the line for me... there are still plenty of rocks in there.
saw the hippie peace messages on the way out, I wish I'd seen the gummy bears!

Yeah sadly the tube's not quite covered yet. Bet we could have skied it, but my bases wouldn't have been my greatest fan.

[donkeykong]

Sounds like you guys have it pretty bad out there, so far. How much snow and/or time would it take to recover from a persistent weak layer like this? Could this be nagging all season?

[skifishbum]

Which one of you guys was playing the hits from 1969 from his jacket?

all the extreme sloeshoe guys rock out to marvin gaye and curtis mayfeild and headphones is out this year
shit if when I go back to the doc in late dec. and he says no ski till Feb i doubt I'll argue.

[Christopher3000]

Sounds like you guys have it pretty bad out there, so far. How much snow and/or time would it take to recover from a persistent weak layer like this? Could this be nagging all season?

We're betting the snow is so weak everywhere that we'll experience a widespread avalanche cycle with the first rapid loading event. The surface snow is so weak it would likely collapse and run with just little bit of additional weight. A longer-duration event, adding a couple inches of water over a short time, could be sufficient to create widespread avalanching to the ground on most steep slopes with any snow cover. Hopefully it continues to snow after that and the snow remaining on the ground is insulated from the cold air above, which would effectively get us started out in the right direction.

[Johnny Deep]

It's running with ski cuts.

[skifishbum]

Sounds like you guys have it pretty bad out there, so far. How much snow and/or time would it take to recover from a persistent weak layer like this? Could this be nagging all season?

i'd check the 9 10 ob thread for insight into that.
or 08 09

Some aspects will just fine.

Not much depthhoar in that photo.

[Johnny Deep]

From Saturday.

[brutah]

Sounds like you guys have it pretty bad out there, so far. How much snow and/or time would it take to recover from a persistent weak layer like this? Could this be nagging all season?

i'm not sure i'd call it a persistent weak layer, as most of the snowpack is weak and faceted. I don't think it will be much of a problem after an initial loading, i.e., if we get a dump and it flushes to the ground and we start over. its all speculation right now, for all any of us know, it could be another month without significant snowfall and the existing snowpack could strengthen, OR the snow faucet could turn on next week, leading to an initial avy cycle follwed by stability. the only thing I'll say for certain is that it should be pretty interesting and exciting out there if we get snow soon.

lately, i've seen a lot of hoar growth in hollows and around open water source, like big cottonwood creek, which I think is fairly common. Actually there is always hoar around open water sources, so i don't think that's a huge cause for concern. the hoar growth and faceting occurring on steep slopes (though I've yet to observe any hoar growth at high elevations or on steep terrain recently) should be a red herring to all BC users.

What I found interesting when I was up in cardiff, other than the blantant herding effect going on, was the variability in the snowpack...... in some areas a stout crest had formed that I couldn't break though and five feet from it on almost an identical aspect was faceted snow. really variable out there and worth taking note because once that shit gets covered it'll be a lot more exciting. remember today's surface layer is tomorrow's weak layer. I did get a small area to sluff with a ski cut on a ENE slope, while the sluff was slow moving, small and easy to deal with, I thought it was weird that faceting snow was causing a sluff (whereas, normally it would be new snow that would cause sluffing). the sluff also ran a significant distance, about 100-150 feet. i thought this was pretty interesting especially cause when I got onto a more NE aspect, right next to the ENE slope I got to sluff, i couldn't get the snow to move and in fact, the NE slope had a breakable crest on it.

hopefully, the weatherman was wrong about this storm cause i've got a visual on some el natural out the office window!!!

here's my desk jockey observation for today:

cumulative snowfall for this season is 79" on the collins snow plot as of today

cumulative snowfall during the 2010-2011 season on 12/14/10 was 162"
total for that season on 4/30/11 was 723.5"

cumulative snowfall during the 2009-2010 season on 12/13/09 was 112.5"
total for that season on 5/2/10 was 585.5"

cumulative snowfall during the 2008-2009 season on 12/13/08 was 111.0"
total for that season on 4/26/09 was 696.0"

cumulative snowfall during the 2007-2008 season on 12/13/07 was 127.0"
total for that season on 4/30/08 was 701.5"

cumulative snowfall during the 2006-2007 season on 12/13/06 was 112.5"
total for that season on 4/23/07 was 401.5"

cumulative snowfall during the 2005-2006 season on 12/13/05 was 134.0"
total for that season on 4/18/06 was 637.5"

cumulative snowfall during the 2004-2005 season on 12/9/04 was 223.0"
total for that season on 4/30/05 was 697.5"


yes, i'm very bored at work today

[skifishbum]

^^^ good cardiff obs I'm way to scared to (fall) snowshoe much out of the valley bottom but poking around the old mine structure echoed that variability on different aspects and in sheltered woods.
got some snowpack and ohter viddy obs but mrs. xmass party fri means my ass needs to get busy
oh and while lackin a bit in snow 06 07 was a great year for me, more so bc experiences and a desire to attempt to become a bit more knowledgeable in snow stability.

[TheMessenger]

It's more than a weak surface layer that will clear out with the next storm. This stuff is going to be depth hoar that is likely to persist through january probably through February. It going to take a lot of snow on top to bridge over it. It's not going away.

i'm not sure i'd call it a persistent weak layer, as most of the snowpack is weak and faceted. I don't think it will be much of a problem after an initial loading, i.e., if we get a dump and it flushes to the ground and we start over. its all speculation right now, for all any of us know, it could be another month without significant snowfall and the existing snowpack could strengthen, OR the snow faucet could turn on next week, leading to an initial avy cycle follwed by stability. the only thing I'll say for certain is that it should be pretty interesting and exciting out there if we get snow soon.

Thin snowpacks don't 'strengthen' over time. They weaken due to the extreme surface/air temperature gradient. Only after the snowpack has reached a meter or so does the temperature gradient lessen and the snowpack trends isothermal, and strengthens.

[brutah]

It's more than a weak surface layer that will clear out with the next storm. This stuff is going to be depth hoar that is likely to persist through january probably through February. It going to take a lot of snow on top to bridge over it. It's not going away.




Thin snowpacks don't 'strengthen' over time. They weaken due to the extreme surface/air temperature gradient. Only after the snowpack has reached a meter or so does the temperature gradient lessen and the snowpack trends isothermal, and strengthens.

good points, i didn't take into account the thin snowpack and how that is a different beast than a meter plus snowpack......

[skifishbum]

It's more than a weak surface layer that will clear out with the next storm. This stuff is going to be depth hoar that is likely to persist through january probably through February. It going to take a lot of snow on top to bridge over it. It's not going away.




Thin snowpacks don't 'strengthen' over time. They weaken due to the extreme surface/air temperature gradient. Only after the snowpack has reached a meter or so does the temperature gradient lessen and the snowpack trends isothermal, and strengthens.

quit postin stuff I agree with bro
throw in a rain rime ice crust event or two and something to make that temp gradient change/isothermal not as efficiant and well seems like we skied a lot of bed surfaces low angle stuff that season till janubery

[amox]

The UDOT had some lodge workers go out yesterday and boot pack trigger points on Flagstaff and Toledo to break up the crust in hopes that it might stabilize the snowpack a bit when we get a ton of the white stuff. We were mostly doing it to "protect the lodges". So we'll take credit if neither the Peruvian or A-Lodge get hit, if they do we'll have to find a scapegoat.

Not sure if it's effective method at all, but it couldn't hurt...

[Lone Star]

^^^ are they planning on doing any more of that? where might an alta lodge worker sign up to help?