Widow: Resort must pay......

[covert]

Pretty good reading here. Penniman's synopsis of testimony from the Alpine Meadows trial.

http://iahs.info/redbooks/a162/iahs_162_0665.pdf

[neufox47]

To the attorneys out there - if a ski resort opened a run and put up a sign that said something like "Due to recent weather this slope may avalanche - ski at your own risk - avalanche training and gear highly recommended" Would that help remove the ability to litigate in a situation like this?

[PNWbrit]

Pretty good reading here. Penniman's synopsis of testimony from the Alpine Meadows trial.

http://iahs.info/redbooks/a162/iahs_162_0665.pdf

Thanks. Interesting reading.

[bodywhomper]

^^ ditto

i have a friend that was on snow safety at alpine meadows during that accident. he was at home prepping to spend the night at the lodge (after conducting morning snow safety) when he got the call in the afternoon. unlike some, he's always been open about discussing the incident.

[covert]

so what's his take? does he fall closer to the "mistakes were made" side or the "we did everything right" side.

i'm not in court so i have the luxury of believing accepting responsibility is more important than placing blame. seems obvious that some things could have been done differently at alpine but that's hindsight for ya.

anybody know if there were operational changes as a result of the incident?

[bodywhomper]

my wife knows how i feel about this general subject, that avalanches can happen during operations in the resorts, that trauma plus a small debris pile can mean death, etc. we've had several friends take small inbounds rides or rip slopes on micro terrain trigger points that didn't move during snow safety. i think she and i are on the same page, but at the same time.... she also knows that there's a better chance that i'm gonna get taken out by some yahoo, kid, or trucker on the road while driving to and from a resort. there are inherent dangers and hazards in driving and playing in the mountains.

we also have a friend that is the snow scientist for a resort. he's patrolled at that resort for over a decade and has been skiing there his whole life. he's very familiar with the terrain features, trigger points, snow characteristics, etc. there has been some inbounds incidents at that resort in the past few years. he is smart, uses all his available tools, works hard, and is methodical in his decisionmaking.

shit happens. imo, avi control work mitigates the danger, it doesn't eliminate it.

so what's his take? does he fall closer to the "mistakes were made" side or the "we did everything right" side.

i'm not in court so i have the luxury of believing accepting responsibility is more important than placing blame. seems obvious that some things could have been done differently at alpine but that's hindsight for ya.

anybody know if there were operational changes as a result of the incident?

good question. i originally meant to put more in my response but i got distracted with other stuff off line.

as a caveot: i don't want to put words in peoples mouths, i'm not gonna name names, and this is all based on my memory and interpretations.

as i remember our conversations on the subject (it's been a few years), he and i never specifically discussed the merits of the decision to re-open the parking lot area. he seems to have been of the opinion that the snow safety protocols were good and appropriate, the protocols were followed, and they (snow safety) did the best that they could do. as a generality, he's also of the opinion that shit happen and that you can't control everything in life. i'm sure he's read that linked article, but we never discussed decisions at the level of detail in the article.

i don't know if protocols were changed as a result of that incident.

I don't remember everything that he did that day from a snow safety standpoint, but remember that he was part of the control crew that uses squaw. they did a lot of blind firing and (at least he) assumed that whatever was gonna go had ripped from the control work, but that there was no eyvisibility. when he got called in the afternoon to head back to help with searching, he knew what the call was regarding before picking up the phone.

i don't remember how long he had worked snow safety before that season and i don't know his experience with seeing those slopes go so big. my skimming that article does not indicate the frequency that those zones rip big and runout to the parking lot and base facilities.

two side notes:
1) in the avi course i took a few years back, another one of the patrollers at alpine that day was an instructor. he did not want to speak about my friend or that incident. i was later told that that particular incident was a very sensitive subject for him and not one that he openly discussed; however, during the course, he discussed many many other incidents that he was involved in.

2) near the intersection of the road into alpine meadows and state route 89 are several chutes that kinda terminate at or above the highway. during one of the big tahoe storm cycles this past season (10/11), this zone naturalled and buried a good portion of the highway. the local avi center reported that these routes had not been controlled yet that season. no cars or people were buried, but holy shit! i find that the state's decision to not control those slopes is interesting and surprising given the general snowpack conditions at the time. i have no idea how frequently those slopes rip that big.

cheers

[concretejungle]

Can anyone provide a labeled map for the AM avalanche or describe the areas using google maps and/or the ski areas map?

Thanks.

[covert]

thanks for the reply whomper. if these kinds of incidents have something in common it's usually a group of highly capable and intelligent people working incredibly hard to prevent something that in the end may be beyond our control.

here's a link with some old pics. http://www.avalanche.org/moonstone/T...0in%20Time.htm

[bodywhomper]

if these kinds of incidents have something in common it's usually a group of highly capable and intelligent people working incredibly hard to prevent something that in the end may be beyond our control.

yep, i agree.

[Meadow Skipper]

Can anyone provide a labeled map for the AM avalanche or describe the areas using google maps and/or the ski areas map?

Thanks.

"A Wall of White" by Jennifer Woodlief has some good maps and pictures. You can get a couple of rough sketches off Amazon on-line:
http://www.amazon.com/Wall-White-Her.../dp/1416546928

It's a good read if you're interested in that event.

[Meadow Skipper]

"A Wall of White" by Jennifer Woodlief has some good maps and pictures. You can get a couple of rough sketches off Amazon on-line:
http://www.amazon.com/Wall-White-Her.../dp/1416546928

It's a good read if you're interested in that event.

Ah, I fucked up - I just looked through that book and there weren't any maps - just those sketches and descriptions. I guess I misremembered.

[Bunion 2020]

if these kinds of incidents have something in common it's usually a group of highly capable and intelligent people working incredibly hard to prevent something that in the end may be beyond our control.

QFT!

When I was on exchange at AM in around 1989 it during a terrible drought in March. The snow stake was reading about 35" settled base and the brush near the bottom of the mountain was pretty evident.

I took a couple of chairlift rides with folks who worked there in 1982 and they pointed out the starting zones of the slide that took out the base.

I still can't wrap my head around how these slopes could have produced an avalanche of that magnitude.

[concretejungle]

Ah, I fucked up - I just looked through that book and there weren't any maps - just those sketches and descriptions. I guess I misremembered.

No worries. I'll definitely pick up the book since after reading the court case summary I was interested. I was just trying to get an idea of the terrain and parking lot setup that led up to this event.

Thanks.

[ilikecandy]

QFT!

When I was on exchange at AM in around 1989 it during a terrible drought in March. The snow stake was reading about 35" settled base and the brush near the bottom of the mountain was pretty evident.

I took a couple of chairlift rides with folks who worked there in 1982 and they pointed out the starting zones of the slide that took out the base.

I still can't wrap my head around how these slopes could have produced an avalanche of that magnitude.

I've skied thousands of laps in that zone, and, having only read a couple articles and not having seen good pictures or talked with anyone who knows about it, the whole thing makes no sense to me. except for the fact that in a storm like that anything can happen

[Tompan]

“In fact, the afternoon before Nodine was killed, the president of JHMR, Jerry Blann, asked Mr. Elkins, the head of ski patrol: ‘Can we get that f------ lift open this afternoon?’ Not surprisingly, Mr. Elkins made the decision to open the lift in question the following morning, and David Nodine was killed.”

Could someone be so kind and explain this quote to me?
Why would the boss pressure them to open the lift?
When a part of, or the whole, mountain is shut down due to weather here in the Alps we don't get any money back at all, so the resort isn't losing any money during those days. Is it different in the US, or at this resort? It seems unlikely to me that there would be any other reasons than money behind a decision like that...

I'm so glad I live in a country where we don't have to deal with this crap...

[Bunion 2020]

There's always pressure from management to open ski terrain. Opening ski terrain is the control teams objective, just as keeping the mountain open and running and making money is managements.

I think perhaps you are over simplifying things a bit.

Not sure what your real life experiences with avalanche mitigation are but if you would like to discuss this at greater length I am game.

[Buster Highmen]

Opening ski terrain is the control teams objective...

And here I thought it was to verify the safety of the slopes and throw bombs and be assholes and stuff. Silly me.

But I do know Merrick's objective was der Poopenhausen.

[F.D.V.]

Any updates on the litigation?

[fallguy]

“The Toilet Bowl ski run was open for almost four hours and had been skied by perhaps hundreds of skiers before the avalanche that involved Nodine,” the resort’s brief says.

so they felt it was safe, opened it, it was skied on by lets say a " lot " of skiers for almost 4 hours before releaseing. to me that spells crappy luck for the deceased, not negligence on the part of the resort.

[Hacksaw]

Any updates on the litigation?

I have not seen any more in regular media.

[covert]

Opening ski terrain is the control teams objective

Maybe you're already sick of people calling you out on this but i would argue that objective assessment of hazard is the control teams primary objective.

While there may have been pressure from management you can't infer that from an out of context quote.

[Buster Highmen]

...but i would argue that objective assessment of hazard is the control teams primary objective.

And here I thought it was mooching smokes.

[covert]

...don't forget wrecking pow...

[Core Shot]

Widow: Resort must pay

Jim Lubing, an attorney for the resort, said Tuesday that he can’t comment on pending litigation.

© 2011

JHMR has an attorney named LUBE-ing

if only his name were richard, or he had a law partnership with his brother, at the firm of Lubing & Lubing

[Bunion 2020]

This just in: Having a beer last night before a SAR debrief and ran into a guy who is very connected to the JH area.

He told me this suit had been dismissed on technical grounds, the widow filed too late.

Can anyone confirm this?