New DB ski owners....

[KANUTTEN]

Your reply is most appreciated!

I think the attitude you are showing and the information you are giving is what I would hope to get directly "from the horse's mouth".

Also, I think it is very strange that DB have set up a production facility where you have no saying in the production schedule. Doesn't the head of the factory speak english. If you tell him to produce DB skis, does he actually produce Goode skis?? Very strange indeed. Have DB/Goode considered travelling to the facilities in China to straighten things out?

The Ogden info above is also a bit puzzling.

A last question; at this point I and probably many other customers are wondering if you are making improvements to next years models. Currently it seems as if the skis will get very limited use this year, and it might make sense to actually wait for next years' model, if it is going to be an improvement over this years. So are there any changes planned to next years model (of the Tabla Rasa in particular)?

I feel sorry for you, running into all those problems. Lets hope you get them sorted out now!

[Mikey]

Kanutten, no problem for the reply – I’ve sent mails off this morning pushing for a ‘formal’ communication, so hopefully it’s on the way.

I share your sentiments on the factory front. Sending somebody out there would certainly seem like the logical thing to do, but that’s not my call to make.

With regard to changes for next years skis, I posed that exact question to Stephan yesterday. There are no changes anticipated for next years models – in part because we’ve had no opportunity to build/test prototypes. As stated in my last post, we shall carry on producing over the summer to the same specifications so as to stockpile skis for what will hopefully be a more successful 05/06 season. Customers expecting ‘this years ski’ will in no way be disadvantaged. Stephan was adamant that the skis we’re producing now represent a significant step forward from last years models, and as such we shall be focusing our efforts on production rather that any redesign.

Any further questions feel free to post here or email me direct.

Thanks for your patience and support,

Mikey
Mike@dbskis.com

[SquawMan]

DB skis are being made in CHINA??? that's the first I heard of that

well, that explains everything

[focus]

for someone who whines and moans and complains about maturity and juveniles and respect... you're quite the little bitch yourself, squawman.

[Free Range Lobster]

Irony: People bitching about production in china on the internet.


if you can't figure out the irony in this, you're stupid... all your computer parts are from china JONG

[SquawMan]

for someone who whines and moans and complains about maturity and juveniles and respect... you're quite the little bitch yourself, squawman.

the Chinese are notorious for inconsistent product quality, especially for the first couple of runs of anything there

you can be the test dummy on the new skis, because I'm sure you don't care about product quality after paying $900 for them, right?

I hope DB makes it, because their design is interesting, but Chinese production is a big negative in my mind

[Free Range Lobster]

the Chinese are notorious for inconsistent product quality, especially for the first couple of runs of anything there

Funny, every company i can think of with semi to fully automated lines have inconsistent products on their first runs until all the bugs are worked out no matter where in the world they are.

[SquawMan]

Funny, every company i can think of with semi to fully automated lines have inconsistent products on their first runs until all the bugs are worked out no matter where in the world they are.

it's a catch 22 situation, if they are too candid, too many orders will get cancelled and they will get stuck with lots of unsold inventory

this revelation about the skis actually being made in China is a bit scary because nowhere on their web site did it EVER say that......it says they are being made at Goode's factory in Michigan

seems to me like it's now competely out of their control and just the boat trip from China will take weeks

anyway, good luck, I've been around too many start-ups in the Bay area so I'm conditioned to having them over promise and under deliver

[cj001f]

blah, blah, chestbeating bay area dick

Shut the fuck up!

[Free Range Lobster]

this revelation about the skis actually being made in China is a bit scary because nowhere on their web site did it EVER say that......it says they are being made at Goode's factory in Michigan

Honestly, Could that have been the origional intent until they finally got the bottom line of cost of production in the US? Probably.

Its a website afterall, people don't update them as much as people would like.
And I'm sure if the production of them went better nobody would have known they were made in China.

But as it is they got dealt a shitty hand and have to eat their cake, and like it.

[KANUTTEN]

Just to check the info received here, I sent the following mail to Goode;

"Hi,

I heard someone talk about production problems at your new factory. I wonder
how quickly I would receive skis if I were to order a pair now?

Rgds,"

And I got the following reply;

"Brent, We have no production problems at the new factory. We are still
manufacturing at the Michigan warehouse.
Sincerely;
GOODE SKI TECHNOLOGIES"

What is going on here?

[the_eleven]

One of the reasons for the "production delay" was that they were moving the production facility from Michigan to Ogden Utah.

Now we hear that they have moved it to China.

WTF???

I wonder how many people would have bought the skis if they knew that they were being made in China.

[BC_Mike]

I heard a rumour from friend in CH that Cyril feels that Goode F'd over DB pretty bad this year, and was considering suing them.

[splat]

If anyone can sympathize with Cyril and Stephan, regardless of what's occurring, it would be me. PM Gear has had our own issues in getting the Bros made. It ain't easy starting a ski company. And when you end up relying on other people to manufacture your product, more reasons than you could imagine will surface to bite you in the ass. I have had to fight tooth and nail to keep production going, just seething in my inabilty to sleep regarding broken promises and failed schedules. Something tells me similar circumstances are rippin these two visionaries down to their bare essence, and that they are cringing at words like these. I know I have.

[Arno]

I heard a rumour from friend in CH that Cyril feels that Goode F'd over DB pretty bad this year, and was considering suing them.

Reading between the lines, that's the feeling I got. I may be wrong, but if the skis had been produced to the original schedule, the factory move, China etc wouldn't even have been issues - the skis should have been out of the door before these things happened.

I mailed DB a while ago and heard back from Stephan who sounded at the end of his tether. I hope they can get themselves sorted out soon and that they can find a way of resolving the production issues. Personally, I'd steer well clear of litigation if they can though

[train07]

If anyone can sympathize with Cyril and Stephan, regardless of what's occurring, it would be me. PM Gear has had our own issues in getting the Bros made. It ain't easy starting a ski company. And when you end up relying on other people to manufacture your product, more reasons than you could imagine will surface to bite you in the ass. I have had to fight tooth and nail to keep production going, just seething in my inabilty to sleep regarding broken promises and failed schedules. Something tells me similar circumstances are rippin these two visionaries down to their bare essence, and that they are cringing at words like these. I know I have.

If db and the bros were to combine forces you would really be kicking some butt...is that a possibility?

[splat]

Stephan and I discussed this. Contractually, they are in deep with Goode and have to culminate their vision where they are. But shit happens and things change, mergers are not necessarily bad, and, by god, it just might snow tomorrow. I need to ski more.

[train07]

Stephan and I discussed this. Contractually, they are in deep with Goode and have to culminate their vision where they are. But shit happens and things change, mergers are not necessarily bad, and, by god, it just might snow tomorrow. I need to ski more.

I think your customers will allow you another day on snow for all the info you've shared. Get some quick.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

... and, by god, it just might snow tomorrow. I need to ski more.

Me too...and I smell a blizzard comin.

[the_eleven]

Anybody know how many pairs of DB's have been paid for, and not yet delivered?

[KANUTTEN]

Ok so I started to enquire Goode about these production issues;

Just to check the info received here, I sent the following mail to Goode;

"Hi,

I heard someone talk about production problems at your new factory. I wonder
how quickly I would receive skis if I were to order a pair now?

Rgds,"

And I got the following reply;

"Brent, We have no production problems at the new factory. We are still
manufacturing at the Michigan warehouse.
Sincerely;
GOODE SKI TECHNOLOGIES"

What is going on here?

This answer wasn't really answering my question so I replied;

"Hi again

Thanks for your reply. I heard that you had set up production facilities in China with a joint production with DB skis. Basically I heard that DB had substantial production problems, and I wondered if the same was true for you? Am I completely mislead here?

Do you produce out of two different facilities, or only Michigan? And also would delivery of Goode skis be almost immediate?"

And got the following answer;

"The production delays are the same for Goode just as they are for DB, it would not be any faster getting a Goode ski rather then a DB."

So Goode is still producing skis out of Michigan, and they are getting all the production from China. Still it will take the same time to get skis from Goode as it will to get skis from DB, according to this guy at Goode. That just doesn't add up.

Now it does sound as if Goode is getting worried about being sued by DB for stealing their customers.

[db.2]

Stephan here from db.

I'll try to address the questions and concerns that have been brought up thus far in thus thread. If I miss anything, let me know, and I will try to come on and post again in the near future.

Well, as you know this year hasn't exactly gone as planned, and has generated some pretty deep frustration through the whole db community- from those who ordered skis, to those who physically build, design, and sell them as a way to make a living.

Probably as much as anyone, I live and breathe this year's disappointment every waking moment of the day and into the night (saying this season is as much of a literal 'nightmare' as it is a figurative one), but underneath the grit, stress, hair loss, and disappointment with the present is an optimism for the future, because I really believe in the skis we are building and know that despite their current lack of numbers, that they are something truly unique, special, and that it's worth fighting for the day when they do get built in quantities that will allow us to fulfill an order within a couple days of it being placed.

-In the fall, we thought there would have been skis, so we took orders with a full payment as a deposit, anticipating that skis would be delivered within a reasonable amount of time. That hasn't happened (see below for answers), and it has really hurt everyone in obvious ways. I now wish we could have just taken a reservation without cash as we are currently doing. It goes without saying that when someone is holding your money in his or her bank and not yours, you are more stressed about the delivery of the thing you ordered. So, in lieu of the current delays, I am advising anyone who has a ski on order, but feels anxiety about its delivery, or whether we are in business or not, to opt for a full refund of their purchase. While I totally understand and encourage those who want or need a refund to get one, we decided not to issue a blanket refund for the season because 1) skis are in fact trickling in and are being delivered, albeit slowly, and 2) there are folks who have orders in who have expressed interest in sticking it out for the long haul.

What happened, where were the problems? China? Michigan? Ogden?

- There were issues in the fall with lay-up and mold discrepancies. This last summer we cut all new molds- essentially completely new and revamped skis from the ones we build last year. That meant retooling everything, 9 molds, and all the accompanying craziness. Within each of those tools, is a lay-up for 2 different flexes, and we introduced a completely new molding cycle to our skis, which is totally unique and idiosyncratic to building carbon/Kevlar skis. I am sure Splat can attest to the immense complications and time involved in building one size/one shape/and 2 flexes on the bros. Anyway, factor that by 9 and add some really difficult materials into the stew and it turns into a potential Pandora’s box. No excuses though. The whole process was late, and the planning wasn't there for problems, many of which popped up in the early phases. Those bugs set us back around 4 months and are the reason why we are where we are. There's really not much more to it, besides the litany of engineering details--- no juicy financial issues, business deals or lawsuits to speak of, just problems in getting a new process dialed in, and unfortunately the repercussions of those early setbacks toasted the season in terms of output.

-Last year all skis were built in Michigan. Michigan is a relatively small facility and could not handle the quantities of skis we wanted to build there. A portion of skis and all molds are currently still being built there for the time being.

-Dave Goode, who is a partner and investor in db skis, wanted to move the operation to the mountains, which is great for db R&D. He chose Ogden UT. The Michigan facility is in the process of moving to Ogden. The move won't be fully complete until May or June of this year. Michigan will shut down completely thereafter. I will be hanging out in Ogden quite a bit next year. Ogden will employ approximately the same amount of people as Michigan did. Dave has been making ski poles in China for a number of years. He has decided to build the core of all skis, both GOODE and db in China, while doing all finishing work and tooling stateside. While currently the GOODE production and commitment to db is spread between Michigan, Ogden, and China, by this summer it will be split between China and Ogden, UT. On the China front, there have been some issues in terms of lack of electrical power running all presses, but these are minor in relation to the production problems mentioned above. In regard to all decisions pertaining to geography and production, db is at the whim of the GOODE organization.

-There are certain realities that come into play in those decisions regarding materials and build processes. When I talk to engineers and ski designers at other companies, they are often shocked and laugh at the materials we are building with from a financial standpoint. The whole ski consists of the highest grade aerospace composites made which cost a ridiculous amount in relation to any other ski built; the time investment in production is equally crazy. The margins are low no matter where you build them, and it's literally an impossible business in some places. It's a labor of love and a commitment to performance, and that's why we are hanging on, and trying to fulfill the orders that remain on the table for this year, and looking optimistically toward the spring when there are skis ready to ship out, and we can make this thing run the way it was designed to.

-It would be something to start over with another facility and not be beholden to a production partner (Of course, we are always open to listening to ideas and looking at other options) However, the belief I have in the sheer performance and design of the skis we are building, and the culture and community around them -e.g. thread like this one- continues to be a strong motivator to hold on. Every time I feel them under my feet, I know that we are up to a good thing, and that these skis mean something really special in our little corner of the ski world, and that we are going to keep working hard and dreaming to make their appearance in numbers a reality.

-The production guys are reticent to give any date projections on skis currently on order, having been wrong so many times this year so far, so we find out what comes in when it comes, unfortunately.

-Misc things: next years skis will be exactly the same as this years, not so much because we don't have time to design again, but because the ones that are starting to come out are amazing boards and we are really happy with them for now. This spring and summer, we hope to play with some experimental shapes that won't replace anything current but may broaden the existing quiver. We are currently working to increase production capacity by 6x for this spring/summer to climb out of the hole.

I hope this post helped to clarify and explain some of the issues and production history of this ill-fated 04/05-production season.

I can't really express how sorry I am to everyone who put an order and in and is still waiting. It pains me every time I think about it, which is often and almost always. I wish we could do something more right away.

If you are on the refund route and need boards right away, I have heard a lot of good things about the sticks made by the good BROS in this neck of the woods.

For those looking to get on the reservation list for when we get our act together, you can email administration@dbskis.com with the size/shape/flex you are looking for.

Otherwise, I am off to bed to dream of skis flying out of the presses and into the shrink wrap.--- I need to ski more too, and hopefully will soon.

Thinking db would be in a totally different place at this point this year, four of us planned a march/April road trip from Colorado to AK, using 4-stroke sleds to access terrain and tours along the way (a trip we dreamed about and planned for years).

In any case, Philip and Roman will be the direct email contacts for NA questions and logistics over the next couple of months, and I will be in contact with them and GOODE virtually daily by phone, so if you have more questions, send them on over, and we will do our best to answer.

Again- apologetically,
Stephan

[snorkeldeep]

Stephan,

Thanks for the informative reply and for taking the time to come on down and explain everything. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm still excited about the product (as i am excited about the Bros) for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that independent companies are on the verge of making real waves in the ski industry. I hope you get your issues worked out and someday my tablas show up (and then i can make good on everything I've been saying about the product to other potential customers). Your response (and Philip's direct contact) are why I'm still here waiting, as frustrating as it is. If we don't support you all now, there's no other way to get off the ground. Like it or not, this community has such an interesting niche of the ski industry, and we're most likely always going to be the first to jump on a project like PMGear or dbskis. Sorry to hear about your road trip - i imagine we all had big plans for our new boards coming in. I know i sure did! Best of luck with the rest of the process.. i still wait like a kid on christmas every time the UPS guy shows up at my office.

-Justin

[SquawMan]

nice post Stephan, but if you want to get people stoked for next year, you really ought to think about skipping the vacation and continuing to hold demo's this spring so people who are waiting for skis can at least get SOME level of satisfaction to keep them wanting to go the distance and newbies like me who want to buy a pair can test them out

also, it would be nice for buyers to meet you

the Volkl Mantra is a very nice ski that I'm considering for '06 and I would love to test a Surreal against it before making a decision

on one hand I can see why you guys cancelled demo's (ie. you can't fill orders anyway, so why taunt people) but on the other, if you give demo ski's to your rep's and let them organize demo's at least you'll build up demand for next year and buzz

just my 2 cents

[splat]

Bravo, Stephan.

For you to discuss the situation (as I have had to) is good to see and relieving for all. I could almost hear myself in what you said, but also know your task as far more daunting, given the number of models and flexes you are working on. And my praise goes to everyone here and elsewhere who has waited, patiently and otherwise, for both db and PM Gear skis. Both companies are the antithesis of megacorp ski companies, started by regular guys you all ski with.

This is the stuff American dreams are made of. And although foreign manufacturing might not sit well with some, I can attest to the high cost of building skis in the US and attempting to be competitive. It's almost impossible. I know that db is busting ass just like we are and am certain they have experienced the guilt-like feelings we have felt regarding timely deliveries. But I'm sure that when those skis arrive, the raves will erupt, all will be well, and the core of the brotherhood will have once again contributed to the progression of the sport.

Here's to the little guys..........................