Carbon dork

[TuaDog]

I would be terrified if I had all this going through my mind while riding down a trail with jumps.

So I got to ride Particles HD 140 w/160 Lyric today, right after riding my '07 Reign X (which was setup for jumping so it was 32lbs and has a 170 Lyric DH) We went and did a few laps on the trail he shows in pics above for lunch. I'd been riding my Glory there and not stoked on the trail flow w/the big bike so this was a day to try it on smaller bikes.

Let me start by saying that I don’t think the HD was setup ideal for my tastes, but it's still really nice any way to slice it. I adjusted nothing since we are pretty similar in size and weight....Right off the bat, the stiffness was hard to fathom. It made me miss lines on the trail that I expected my tires to hit cause it was more precise then I’m used to. Hard to explain, but I would expect my rear wheel to end up in a certain spot in a corner and it kept being in a tighter line. I would need to adapt to that cause I can carry better speed with my planned line. The rear shock is still a few psi above what I like and I wasn't as sold on the 140 mode which felt a tad odd to me with the 160 Lyric. It just didn't feel as balanced and because of this it kinda felt like it had a steeper HA then my RX. Particle raves about the setup and rips on it so take my comments with a grain. Could just be setup differences, but it’s hard to say. On top of the stiffness what I noticed was the pedal power. You could stand and stomp and the rear would only move maybe ½” max. I feel like the same motion on my RX would cause closer to 1.5” of movement. So even accounting for switching it to the 160 mode, it would still bob almost half as much as the Reign while mashing, and I never felt the Reign was bad before this day. The Mojo pedals a lot better, period (This point is too obvious to ignore for me). Bombing down the fire road descent at the end I felt a little more trail chatter on the HD rear, but not tons, even with only 140mm of travel. I did notice it fights against manualling a bit more then the Reign which wasn't always ideal as I dropped through trenches, but I expect I'd adapt. I’d say it feels a lot more like a VPP bike then a Maestro bike. More emphasis on pedaling but only sacrificing a tad on plushness. It’s all in where you put the pivots, right. I'm seriously thinking about a HD160 with my 170mm fork (I really like my Lyric DH Solo Air) I think anyone that buys one of these is very wise right now. The versatility to switch it 140/160 is a pretty nice bonus too. I'm not sure how I'd feel jumping on a bike much lighter as his 30lb HD already felt like a feather.

Right now there are 3 bikes on the list if I unload the old Reign X...A new Reign X, the new Reign which I'd run with a long fork, or the Mojo HD160. The Nomad C would probably be on the edge of the list as well

Today also had me thinking that my Glory"ous" experiment may be nearing an end and it's time to accept that a DH bike is a DH bike and just keep it for the 5-10 days per year that I need it instead of using it as a long travel AM bike (To clarify, it has a Hammerschmidt, 5" Gravity Dropper, 180mm Totem, Monarch Plus for only 190mm of rear travel, Flow's on King hubs, BBG's...all for 35.8lbs, but for DH days I switch it up to Outlaws, big tires, short post, and an RC4 so it's 39 lbs) It was awesome last year at Whistler like this Either I'm more out of shape or others are just faster, but I'm starting to feel like I'm bringing too much power to bear on many rides. I was hoping to use this for all duties beyond trail riding and get something like a Mojo SLR to replace the ReignX for trail duties. I'm trying to avoid a 3 bike stable...decisions...decisions.

Maybe I should just buy a carbon 29er hardtail and keep the RX and Glory and a lot of money....NOT

[phatfreeheeler]

I would be terrified if I had all this going through my mind while riding down a trail with jumps.

I KNOOOOOW!!





I'm weird like that for sure

[AKbruin]

So, I got a chance to demo an Ibis HD 160 with a 160 fork yesterday on some local trails. I'm wondering if the suspension was set up correctly though (the Ibis guy took my weight and set the sag). On one hand, it pedaled amazingly. Coming out of a corner, every pedal stroke propels the bike forward. It was also a joy to pump along the trail. On the other hand, it didn't exactly float through rough patches and rock gardens. (Note, I base this judgment in part on my experience in the same rock gardens on my 6 Point 6, also DW-Link, and lph's FSR Evo.) The suspension felt too firm. It also didn't feel as slack and comfortable at speed as the 67-degree head angle would suggest. In short, as lph noted, it felt like a long-travel cross-country bike. Set-up issue?

I also did a quick run on lph's FSR Evo. Man, that's a sweet ride. It didn't quite have the pedal responsiveness of of the Ibis, but it felt more comfortable at speed and cornered amazingly. Kudo's to Specialized for spec'ing this bike out nearly perfectly for its intended use (2x10, bash guard, gravity dropper).

A few other thoughts:
*The Formula The One brakes on the Ibis were amazing. Very powerful and great modulation.
*One of the Ibises I rode had well-worn WTB Mutano tires, which felt sketchy and unpredictable. The other had 2.3 Weirwolfs, which were better, but I'll stay with my 2.4 Ardent/Fat Albert combo for now.
*I don't know why Ibis spec'd their HD 160s out with a 3x10 setup. On both the Ibises I tried, I had some chain slip. This bike seems like the ideal candidate for a 2x10 setup.

[Particle]

Interesting... it's hard to say since I run mine in 140/160 combo, and haven't tried 160 in the rear yet. Plus the reason I own that bike is to have an efficient pedaler that can take heavy hits... not a human-powered couch cushion.

I would not be surprised at all that an FSR bike would feel a lot plusher - that's just how FSR feels. My guess is setup played a factor, and the bike probably isn't as chunder-eating as the other rigs you listed.

Seriously though, my bike feels like a firmly set up trail bike with slack angles - super comfy at speed. I have ridden 'long-travel cross country bikes' a la Yeti 7, etc... and they are not my flavor. My bike is firm, but it ain't no xc race rig. FWIW.

[lph]

particle, it felt too steep to me, even though the numbers don't suggest that. but your 140 is slacker right? that small difference in HA could make a big difference. That is why I wanted to try the 160/180. But, they didn't have one.

it cornered like it was on rails, just felt a bit 'twitchy' to me moving through the technical stuff.

I thought the rear suspension was great through the small rock gardens. In that regard I disagreed with AK. But, I set my shock up plusher than AK did. probably 30-35% sag or so.

[AKbruin]

I based my opinion on my second ride on Lower Corral on the the bike (with less pressure) that you were on initially. It just felt like I was bouncing and ricocheting through those rock gardens rather than floating and carrying speed through them. I still think a lot of it was set up. Like I said, I ride a DW-Link bike that pedals well (though not as well as the Ibis) but feels more plush in the same rock gardens. Anyhow, I need to try it out again. I know too many people who love this bike and seem to have a similar riding style to my own.

[Particle]

Always good to hear other experiences, no doubt about it.

I think one of the biggest strengths of the HD is its versatility; you can set it up to feel like an upright XC bike or a straight up steamroller. My buddy has one with a 180 Talas front/160 rear and his feels like a monster truck to me after coming off my own bike. But he rides his everywhere and crushes it on the climbs.

That said I have not had the chance to really rally mine on a true chunderfest trail a la Porcupine or Dark Hollow (Brian Head) - I've just been rallying it in smoother fast descents. So maybe I am in for a nasty surprise? I really doubt it though.

[SkiJunky05]

Great reviews in this thread- and I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I've been going back and forth between an HD with a Talas 180/DHX RC4 coil rear (160mm) and a Talas 150/RP23 @140.

It's taken me a little while to get used to the Mojo being exactly where I point it. HD frame + CB Iodine wheels = a whole lot stiffer than I'm used to- but such an awesome change. Short review notes: 150/140 is pleasantly quick steering, really great for my cross country rides. As with my original Mojo, the RP23 took a tiny bit of playing with pressure to get it dialed to the point where I'm getting everything out of it, with a bottom out on occasional bigger drops/hits. This lighter build also heightens the snap-outa-corners feel and vroom power coming from the pedals.
"lil bike mode" on one of the beginner trails @ Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, shot by JeffJim w/ a GoPrizzle

With my 180/160 setup, two things stand out.
1) The bike still climbs damn well. I don't usually use the Talas nor pro pedal (on the rp23) in lil bike mode, so at 180/160 its great not thinking about switching knobs and dials. I just pedal- and it works. Simple.
2)It is plush. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I haven't done anything with the RC4 coil except adjust the spring a few quarter turns and took 10 seconds to fiddle with the rebound...and it's butter. Same with the fork.

"Big mode" HD after climbing to the top of Snow King on Saturday evening:


My first time hitting one of my go-to jumps on Parallel trail, I immediately noticed that I went bigger than I normally would- I suspected this was in part due to my HD being around 9 lbs lighter than my old SX Trail- so that kinda alarmed me while in the air- and then I landed- and it was far smoother than my SX.

I'm really looking forward to riding Lithium or some of the rougher trails on the pass to see how it performs there, but I'm pretty damn confident that I'm going to be smiling.

I have had a harder time getting my Formulas really dialed, but they are without a doubt plenty strong.

edit- Heh, the photos I've thrown on here show the bike downhilling @ shorter travel mode and climbing @ longer travel mode- which goes to show it's versatility.

[JoshP]

And now I have a sudden urge to swap out my 170 Lyric Air on my ReignX for a 180 Talas .

If I were buying a new bike today, I'd have a yellow one just like Skijunky's for sure. I am even thinking of selling my DH bike and my trail bike for one.....and a CR250 .

[JeffreyJim]

Here is my $0.02 on the subject.

First, I'm graced with the privilege of being able to ride with SkiJunky a fair amount. For those of you that don't know. He's good. Really good. And his speed is unreal right now. I'm not even sure he's fully aware how well/fast he's riding. Not sure how much it has to do with the bike but I'd wager there are few guys able to hold his current speed in many "light DH" applications (EG: Teton Pass)

Second, that bike is, as others have said, is the only bike I know of that I could switch fork/wheels out on and race XC on. Full on XC. Not like freakshow XC (you could be competitive). I'm not saying its the best XC bike out there (race) but it can hold its own. 27lbs 140/150 bike is pretty damn cool. Sure, its 3 lbs heavier than you'd ideally want but if you are racing cat 1, its doable.

Third, it is as stiff/stiffer than just about any DH bike out there. Tip it over. Feel that flex? Yeah, there is none. Or as close to none as I've ever felt. Makes my Reign X feel down right flexy. (and its really not bad at all)

Geometry felt a tad steeper than I'd like. Thankfully, due to the 1.5/1.125 headtube, you can run an angleset. Unless you are looking for full on DH bike geomtery (63/64) you'll get a plenty slack headtube angle out of a 180 at -1.5 (somewhere around 65...or less)

In short, its an amazing feat of modern bicycle engineering. It will likely be my next frame. I hope!

Jeff

[marshalolson]

Jeff, cat 1 xc has changed alot I think since you last raced it. Those dudes are on 21lb 4" travel full suspension carbon bikes nowadays. A mojo sl is not even a legit cat 1 xc race bike anymore.

[lph]

I will find a way to ride a 180/160 set up at some point this summer.

On another note, I am close to having my new SJ EVO FSR dialed and the bike is everything I hoped it would be, every ride is more and more fun.

[kidwoo]

Jeff, cat 1 xc has changed alot I think since you last raced it. Those dudes are on 21lb 4" travel full suspension carbon bikes nowadays. A mojo sl is not even a legit cat 1 xc race bike anymore.

That sounds like the same shaved leg, chainring tatto on the calf faggots I used to race in expert 10 years ago. You sure something 'changed?' Still run over them on descents as they carry their bikes down rocky sections? Like literally run over them? That's about the only thing I miss about racing xc.

[JeffreyJim]

I'm not saying its a perfect race bike. I'm just saying I could race and not finish DFL. (mid pack). To be honest, back when I raced XC I was on a 26lbs FS bike when most were on 23lbs hard tails. This wouldn't be that far off. Again, not saying its ideal, just saying I could do it on a local/regional level and do okay.

[sb]

More like Carbon Sick.

I want a HD one day for my all mountain ripper. BTW the HD fits 650b.

[Particle]

So, I finally swapped out my 140 links for 160 links and popped an Elka on the back.

I have to completely agree with lph and akbruin on their comments. I did two rides with the bike at 160/160 (Lyrik Solo Air). The rear end felt incredibly damp and planted with the coil, as you'd expect. None of that high-speed chatter that sometimes occurred with the RP23. Just glued to the ground, plush, awesome. But, something just felt off. I rode Arcylon (flow jump trail) and the Crest (pedally high speed Utah mountain trail, mix of buffness and some chunder... mostly buffness). And I felt myself making little mistakes, oversteering... occasionally scaring myself. Most of it was fine but 5% just felt wrong.

Fortunately I work with pfh and he is a bit more aware of bike setup than I am and told me to bump the fork to 170. I was skeptical; how could 10 mm make any significant difference in handling?

It did. Big time.


So stoked on it now with 160 rear/170 front! I'm sure it's even better 180 up front. Now it's balanced, quick, handles the gnar no problem. Did an underground race last weekend on the old Deer Valley sport DH course, no worries at all. Total confidence.

That said, I'm only going to keep it in 'big bike mode' for Dark Hollow Super D this weekend, and it should be perfect for Moab season coming up. I'll switch it back to 140/160 mode for normal Northern Utah riding though.

Really cool how versatile this bike is!

140 mode:


Burl mode:

[Particle]

P.S. I have read a lot of interweb reviews saying that the HD pedals just as well in 160 as it does in 140. That is total BS in my opinion. It definitely feels more sluggish in 160 mode. That said, I am still able to put in some hard climbing efforts in 160 mode and can motor along pretty darn well.

[Dangerous E]

On another note, I am close to having my new SJ EVO FSR dialed and the bike is everything I hoped it would be, every ride is more and more fun.

<thread hijack> Did you get 'er dialed? The SJ Evo is one of a few bikes on my shortlist for next season. Impressions? Thx...

[AKbruin]

P.S. I have read a lot of interweb reviews saying that the HD pedals just as well in 160 as it does in 140. That is total BS in my opinion. It definitely feels more sluggish in 160 mode. That said, I am still able to put in some hard climbing efforts in 160 mode and can motor along pretty darn well.

I thought it pedaled very well in 160 mode. But maybe the shock wasn't set up right because it also felt too stiff/tight at times on the decent. I think my Lyrik on the front wouldn't been an improvement over the beat-up Fox I used on the demo.

Have you tried 140/140? or 140/150? Ideally, that's what I would want. (Though, as somebody mentioned before, it's pretty awesome that you can make the Mojo HD a very nice 25 lbs. 5" trail bike or a very nice 30 lbs. 6-7" all-mountain/freeride bike.)

[hardboiled]

I thought it pedaled very well in 160 mode. But maybe the shock wasn't set up right because it also felt too stiff/tight at times on the decent. I think my Lyrik on the front wouldn't been an improvement over the beat-up Fox I used on the demo.

Have you tried 140/140? or 140/150? Ideally, that's what I would want. (Though, as somebody mentioned before, it's pretty awesome that you can make the Mojo HD a very nice 25 lbs. 5" trail bike or a very nice 30 lbs. 6-7" all-mountain/freeride bike.)

when I demo'd the HD 160 I had the same initial impression as you and lph -- very firm pedaling platform, sporty feeling rear end, definitely not as plush as my reign x. it was also set up with a not-very-plush Talas 160 up front. when I got mine built up, set up in 150/140 mode, I was surprised that right off the bat it felt like a much plusher ride. makes me think that maybe the beginning of the suspension curve has a big platform for pedaling in 160 mode and when you run it in 140 mode you get into the "sweet spot" of the curve faster... but that is complete conjecture. in any event, obviously a well-tuned rear shock a la particle's elka or skijunky's rc4 (or another bud's push'd vivid) gets er done. I'm sure you could get an air shock to the right place too. I'm happy with the rp23 on mine. you're welcome to throw a leg over it.

[lph]

particle, glad to hear you had similar impressions when in 160/160 mode. Local LBS told me that it is spot on for an 'all mountain do everything bike' at 160/180. these are guys with a one bike stable.

E, I got the suspension dialed on the SJ FSR EVO and i love the bike. I put a really short 60mm stem on it which is proving to be too short for some of the longer, more technical and steeper climbs that are finally opening up in tahoe, so gonna bump that to a 70mm. but, the suspension tracks great on climbs. the BB is definitely low and it corners well and bangs through technical descents and hi speed rock gardens like a champ.

Just for fun I jumped on the bike it replaced, a well maintained 2005 5 spot. wow. what a difference, no comparison. the SJ was a much better all around bike.

I sometimes get buyers remorse, particularly as this was sort of an impulse buy, and therefore I am not afraid of criticizing my purchases, but none of that here.

I am struggling with the command seatpost, the god damn seat clamp won't stay at the right angle. i bump the back of the seat and the seat angle changes. frustrating. a little dirt on the surfaces of the mechanism seems to have solved it.

[phatfreeheeler]

I don't even have my frame yet and I'm already thinking I'll need to change my setup plan. Damn you Particle

Might need to run the Totem with the 160 rear and get a 150 Revelation for the 140 setup. Or just borrow the wife's Revelation XX WC when I really need it or get suckered into another 24hr race. That and a quick wheel swap and I could see using this one frame for everything from pure XC to slower DH and jumpy park riding.

Joshp reminded me the other day that the time I spend swapping stuff is probably more then the time gained or lost on the trail. He's totally right, but I'm addicted to the feel of a perfectly setup bike for the trail, even if I fail often to get it cause I can't afford that stable. Don't get me started on how many skis are needed to complete a proper quiver

I still wonder if just a little extra sag will lower the BB in the 160mm mode and make the HA a deg slacker. Should make the back end stick like glue too with more negative travel. Similar to a mini V10.

[marshalolson]

Joshp reminded me the other day that the time I spend swapping stuff is probably more then the time gained or lost on the trail. He's totally right, but I'm addicted to the feel of a perfectly setup bike for the trail, even if I fail often to get it cause I can't afford that stable.

just think about how many bikes you could own if instead of spending the time switching crap around, you just spent it on actually WORKING

[Particle]

I don't even have my frame yet and I'm already thinking I'll need to change my setup plan. Damn you Particle

Might need to run the Totem with the 160 rear and get a 150 Revelation for the 140 setup. Or just borrow the wife's Revelation XX WC when I really need it or get suckered into another 24hr race. That and a quick wheel swap and I could see using this one frame for everything from pure XC to slower DH and jumpy park riding.

Joshp reminded me the other day that the time I spend swapping stuff is probably more then the time gained or lost on the trail. He's totally right, but I'm addicted to the feel of a perfectly setup bike for the trail, even if I fail often to get it cause I can't afford that stable. Don't get me started on how many skis are needed to complete a proper quiver

I still wonder if just a little extra sag will lower the BB in the 160mm mode and make the HA a deg slacker. Should make the back end stick like glue too with more negative travel. Similar to a mini V10.

The problem with swapping stuff so much is you never actually get used to the bike's feel. To me there are few things better than getting your setup totally dialed, getting used to it, and finding that seamless interaction between yourself and the trail... to where the bike just kinda goes away. You're not thinking about the setup, you're just interacting with the dirt and rocks at the highest possible level because you are so tuned in to how your bike. just. rides.

edit: and pfh, I'd stick with the 170 Lyrik. That geo feels good. And you could probably get it slacker with some more sag than mine.

[marshalolson]

this might be blasphemy, but i feel that way ^^^ more about skis than i do bikes. but i agree, i feel that way about both