Utah Avalanche photo-of-the-day

[DougW]

wra, one guy is sniping at you, this is an unmoderated forum and he's allowed. The lack of moderation makes this a great place, sometimes a contentious place, but don't let it get you down.

I would like to see you post here more often, thanks for your contributions.

There one form of moderation- Ignore function- so you never have to read his posts again. I've never used it but its always there if the level of discourse is so low that its just a waste of time reading it. Not ready to do that just yet.
response- yes the Durrant slide there are a lot of fingers being pointed, I've read a far bit on it, even a art. in Ski Canada last year. Yes have enough knowledge ascess what the guide is directing you to do. But 9 times out of 10 when this happens the skier skis something that the guide doesn't want him to do and they get smoked. This happens much more often.

[iceman]

If Brett's point was that you should not blindly follow someone because they have been labeled an "expert", but instead you should make your own decisions regarding your personal safety, then I think that's fair, and it applies in Utah just as much as B.C. or anywhere else. I'm not going to ski something that an expert has labeled "safe" if it still freaks me out, experts die too.

[13]

Bump & hopefully wra decides to keep contributing despite Brett's aggressiveness.

[Chris Walken]

you guys. don't get it. brett wants. to be your leader. despite the fact. he has no credentials. and questionable experience. he wants. to be your leader. his contentious arguementation. however. with people light years. ahead of him. in experience. knowledge. and education. should not be questioned. because he wants to be your leader. as summit plays nero's fiddle. he wants to be your hero.

[Kya]

I said earlier that I would not ski that slope (original picture) because I would view that too risky. I would make MY OWN decision based on MY OWN priorities, MY OWN knowledge, and MY OWN experiances. Sounds like wra would make a different decision based on these same criteria. I respect his perspective, priorites, knowledge, and experiance.

We all view risk differently and we all have different degrees of experiance.

[tele mark]

WOW,

Hope you're still around cause I gots a legit question for ya;
why, if older than a day would cracks signify a stabilizing of the pack vs. a de-stabilizing?

Not quite WRA but I'll take a stab at the question. To start with, the majority of slides occur w/in 2 days of a storm (or other related av triggering event such as a major windstorm). It seems that the snow pack tends to settle out and stabilize in that time period as bonds are formed w/in the snowpack (snow crystals start to bond together making for a more cohesive slab-go to the UAFC 2nd lecture sometime in Jan/Feb for a good presentation on this process or read the Avalanche Handbook )

Last season I had an experience that really highlighted the change in strength of a snowpack over just one day. On a Sunday afternoon following a 2' dump I decided to do a tour on our backyard SL suburban hill, Burnt Knob.



During the day my partner and I triggered 6 soft slides and 1 hard slab on our final run. All you had to do was barely touch the snow to get a fast & long running slough to trigger. The first one (3rd form looker's right in the photo, notice it starts beneath a rock outcropping) happened while breaking trail, it ran the full length of the run about 10' in front of the lead breaker. We proceeded to do a run (sloughs can be manageable) with the same sloughs triggering for each of us and for Eric's dog (kind of neat getting blasted from behind by a snow pillow). On the 2nd lap Eric triggered the slab (far lookers left in the photo, visible next to the tree line on top of the shoulder) after he was already half way down the slope. It broke above him, fortunately the slide split in two as it raced down the shoulder, breaking to the right and to the left of Eric. I skied the line next to the runout as it was the safest line down.

The next morning I returned w/Shredgar to do some investigation. We proceeded to the headwall to inspect the starting zone.





It was ~ 1.5'-2' deep and on a 37 deg. slope angle (bullseye for starting slides). The sloughs/slides all ran the full length of the slope, approx. 1000' of vert. After taking measurements Shredgar tried to get a block to go by jumping on it repeatedly.



After he failed to get it to move I jumped on and tried my hand. I figured since everything was so sensitive just the prior afternoon, I should easiy be able to get it to move. I presumed Edgar just wasn't jumping hard enough. I jumped on the partially cracked block numerous times, frustratingly the thing never budged even an inch. We proceeded to do a couple of laps w/ no incidence, skiing steeper lines than I had just the day before. As such I learned firsthand how a strong a settled slab can be due to just 2 things. 1) we had already triggered a slab the day before releasing most of the stored energy and 2) In the right conditions snow settles out very quickly (conversely the wrong conditions, i.e. buried surface hoar on cold days; can take a longer time to settle out). Hope this helps, it may only be a piece to the puzzle but each lil' piece helps to build one's decision making skills in the BC.

[Karl Stall]

Interesting...Last Friday, the Patrol Director at Alta was discussing the snowpack (especially as related to their holding off on the Catherine's area) and mentioned that simply "letting the snowpack sleep a bit" could do wonders for the stability. Intuitively, this makes sense.

[snowfire]

Wow, there is so much information in this thread I think I need to make a list. Thanks guys!

[Blurred]

I find it incredible that after we've had two maggots in the last two weeks involved in avalanches, one being fatal, that the attitude here remains the same. I got flamed for telling one of those maggots to be safer in the BC a few weeks before his incident.

Hopefully people are reading this thread and learning how to be safer in the backcountry.

[L7]

First, you are asking, so I do not consider you an Av JONG.

For all of the turns this thread took and the great information it contains I personally think this is the most important statement to come out of it.

There are no stupid questions just stupid answers. Making avalanche awareness more universal FIRST means making people comfortable to ask the questions that need asking.

Amongst all the huck boasting, chest beating and hard coring there has to be room for these threads to share the information that will keep people safe out there. Thanks to all who helped make that happen.

[gramps]

Blurred, no one has a problem with you raising safety concerns, or questioning what an "expert" is saying. It's the way you do these things. Super aggressive, personal attacks, acting like everything someone is saying is bullshit because you have an issue with one thing that they said. A new guy comes on the board who has been out in the Wasatch making avalanche observations 100+ day/yr for many years, and the first thing you do is personally attack him, over and over again. If you think he's saying something that's unsafe, by all means bring it up, but not like that. And then you get real hurt when people tell you to lay off. We all do care, despite what you may think.

edit: sorry about going off topic, I just couldn't help myself

[Blurred]

Blurred, no one has a problem with you raising safety concerns, or questioning what an "expert" is saying. It's the way you do these things. Super aggressive, personal attacks, acting like everything someone is saying is bullshit because you have an issue with one thing that they said. A new guy comes on the board who has been out in the Wasatch making avalanche observations 100+ day/yr for many years, and the first thing you do is personally attack him, over and over again. If you think he's saying something that's unsafe, by all means bring it up, but not like that. And then you get real hurt when people tell you to lay off. We all do care, despite what you may think.

edit: sorry about going off topic, I just couldn't help myself

Where's Bob Barnes the "expert" when you need him? I mean he is a god..... He's been skiing forever.....

[Agent 00X]

Here's an area map, I think it has some of the recent slides on them, Silver Fork etc. Could someone help out with locating them? (copy into Paint and add markers/text or description) If another map is needed let me know. Thanks.

[Trackhead]

Check out the snowmobile tracks in this slide. Slednecks were highpointing all day. Then two went at the same time, finally causing it to rip. Three narrowly escaped with there lives.


Nice debris chunk.


Link to these photos at Logan Utah Avalanche Center


Education point: You can ski a slope all day and it might wait until the last lap to slide. Don't get lured into safety just because it didn't slide for the first ten skiers.

Reality: Go to Cardiac Bowl on a bluebird pow day and watch everyone (25+ folks) lapping the shit out of it. People in the runout zone, people on the skin track, multiple people all over the place, all the time. Then think about the above photo and how safe your really are!!!! People get lured into safety when in crowds. The 'everyone else is doing it' mentality.

Cardiac Bowl. I can't find the photo I'm looking for, but this will do. Imagine 25+ skiers all over it. And you standing at the bottom. Again, this photo doesn't represent my point entirely.

[wra]

Agent 00X wrote

Here's an area map, I think it has some of the recent slides on them, Silver Fork etc. Could someone help out with locating them? (copy into Paint and add markers/text or description) If another map is needed let me know. Thanks

It'd probably be easier if you went here,
http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/ava_fore.html
look at the list of avalanches and then look for them in maps and photos or use the topozone link.

This is a picture of Gobblers Knob looking up the main face. Taken from the base of the debri pile with the summit 2000 vertical feet above.



The slide was (depending on how you figure) one hundred or more yards wide and included most of the main face. Probably running on the 9th.
Hangfire? Nope. Step downs? Nope. My tracks? Nope. It did clean out a good bit of brush in the middle for the next time it snows.



A recent slide, yesterday? in Mill A Basin north facing. The partial ridge in the foreground is the east facing off Raymond.

Trackhead you've stolen the sunday service photo from the other forum.
Here's the one you want.

[iceman]

...this photo doesn't represent my point entirely.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Trackhead]

WRA,

Thanks, that's the one. Been there on days like that.

[SkiOrDie]

I grew up sailing, why does that matter in an Avi disucssion? Because sailors learn two things:

1) There are BOLD sailors and there are OLD sailors, but there are NO OLD BOLD sailors, the sea kills them. The same goes for skiing.

2) You can't sail on a schedule. Just because you WANT TO leave and go sailing doesn't mean you get to. Sometimes you just have to go back to the bar and have a drink.

I am struck, through this entire thread, by the fact that the dummass in the picture and the poor guy who died earlier this week, were skiing on days when they should have been in the bar. No matter how "nice" it looks and how "untracked" it is, you simply can't ski on a schedule. It's just TOO BAD if you've only got Saturday off - if you screw with this it will eventually kill you.

I just wish I could find that poor dead guy in the bar at the Rustler.

Next time I'm there, I'll drink to his memory.

[Spats]

wra:

Thanks for contributing here. I'm learning from this thread. Snowpack isn't simple.

Blurred:

Your tactics are obvious: provoke someone, keep provoking them, and just before they get fed up and leave, back off and say "Whoa, I'm really a decent guy, I like you." No, you're a gaslighter. Stop fucking with my information sources.

[Blurred]

Blurred:

Your tactics are obvious: provoke someone, keep provoking them, and just before they get fed up and leave, back off and say "Whoa, I'm really a decent guy, I like you." No, you're a gaslighter. Stop fucking with my information sources.

Guy comes in bragging about how he's been skiing in avie prone backcountry all week, and how skiing next to a slope that's just slid is safe. I wasn't provoking, flaming or being an ass, simply pointing out that his arrogance combined with his ignorance are going to get him and if he's your "information source", yourself killed as well.

[wra]

blurred, you are indeed the dumb ass.
I did no bragging about skiing during a high hazard, one of my pictures er.. more than one was posted on this forum and I commented on it.
As far as the skiing during a high hazard, it is my job and it pays poorly but it sure beats washing dishes to ski.
Have had the same fucking job for 14 years now.
Looking forward to 15.
No avalanche expert, just a ski bum.
Live with it.

[Blurred]

blurred, you are indeed the dumb ass.
I did no bragging about skiing during a high hazard, one of my pictures er.. more than one was posted on this forum and I commented on it.
As far as the skiing during a high hazard, it is my job and it pays poorly but it sure beats washing dishes to ski.
Have had the same fucking job for 14 years now.
Looking forward to 15.
No avalanche expert, just a ski bum.
Live with it.

As far as being a dumb ass for doing so? I have been skiing for the last five days during a period of unstable snow conditions.

So who do you do "contract work" for then?

[Xover]

Wow,

I again will request that you stick around these parts - then I (and others) can save time (from surfing on over to ttips) for your daily update

Thanks again.

[Trackhead]

Check out this iceberg sized chunk of debris.

[Tri-Ungulate]

So who do you do "contract work" for then?

Just FYI, for the Utah Avalanche Forecast Center. He also teaches level I and II Avy courses for them. The only reason he's not one of the "official" forecasters is (I think) partially preference as well as other stuff that's not germane to this conversation, but suffice to say he has as much if not more experience in the Wasatch as anyone, most if not all of the "official" forecasters included.

I would be willing to bet that he has more total BC skiing days than the everyone else on the board combined - we're talking thousands, here.

As for OLD BOLD BC skiiers, wra isn't super old (except in terms of BC days), occasionally but not always bold and about as savvy regarding the local conditions as can be imagined, at least relative to most of the rest of us BC beaters. Which is not to say that he's infallible or avy-omniscient, but don't believe that he ever has claimed that.