Custom Insole question

[Climber Joe]

So I have really weird feet. They are very wide, with a "6th toe" and short/fat. But I also have arches like the golden gate. They literally go from the heel to the ball of my foot. I really want to get some real custom footbeds. The problem I run into, is most "custom" shop fit footbeds have inadequate arch support, either in height, or length. I literally need a "made from ground up" type footbed. There is a shop up in Big Sky that does AmFit bootbeds, but I was wondering if there is anything better? Any suggestions are welcome. I would really love to get my boots fitting properly. If it helps, I have some "SOLE" inserts that were like three sizes too big, cut to fit, and they still do not have enough arch support.

Thanks!

[L7]

I'm a little confused by your use of 'custom'. Maybe you see a difference between quotes and no quotes. Sole inserts/footbeds are moldable but I wouldn't say custom. Amfit have limitations as to how much height they offer under the arch. You may be better with something thermomolded or a cork superfeet or a something in fibreglass.

What is it you need? Do you overpronate? Is it simply a matter of discomfort? By your description I would guess you have a rigid midfoot which will cause problems with midfoot support. A Winlass test can tell you that. Your best bet is to see a good bootfitter or even a pedorthist or orthotist.

[Climber Joe]

Hey thanks for the info. And yes, I overpronate, and a question on the fiberglass. I talked to a guy at LMS and they had these things that used heat and pressure to mold up under your foot. I am pretty sure it was fiberglass, but not totally positive. How long will those last? It did not seem too sturdy to me.

[DasBlunt]

Those new superfeet cork are hundreds less than real MD orthos and are pretty sweet.

They might not last 10 years, but my original superfeet green are still rocking from @1996.

[altis]

Get thee to a podiatrist. They will be able to build your orthotics from the ground up by sticking shaped lumps of rubber to a baseboard. Alternatively, find one that can mill them out of a solid block of EVA foam.

It might help if they can ski but it's certainly not essential. Just explain to them how your boot constrains your foot and they should understand.

http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...ad.php?t=59495

[L7]

Hey thanks for the info. And yes, I overpronate, and a question on the fiberglass. I talked to a guy at LMS and they had these things that used heat and pressure to mold up under your foot. I am pretty sure it was fiberglass, but not totally positive. How long will those last? It did not seem too sturdy to me.

What you looked at is likely the thermoplastic I referred to. They aren't as durable as other materials but depends how they are made. Posting material under them will help. Fibreglass will first do a plaster cast of your foot to build the footbed from.

I still suspect you have a rigid midfoot (still possible to overpronate) but may cause you to be intolerant of much support midfoot. IF that is the case posting/wedge at the heel can be very helpful.

It sounds like you really need to see a professional as in pedorthist, podiatrist, orthotist or someone at a shop that REALLY knows what they're doing. They footbeds you need sound real easy to screw up.

[tahoe_rider]

The answer is pretty straight forward IMO. By the sounds of it you are located near Big Sky and if I were you go to Moonlight Basin. They are a shop that can build you a instaprint rather then a cork. Both footbeds have the potential to work for you but the biggest thing that I see with corks is that they are often overbuilt on the base of the bed. What this will do to you is force you into the instep of the boot resulting in loss of circulation and possible collapse of the arch. I have built many corks and for certain situations they work great but in you situation I do not believe this to be the answer. Now instaprint certainly if built improperly can result in bad things happening but they do have a lower margin of error.

The key here is to get someone that knows what they are doing. Your foot really isn't that tough to take care of but you certainly need someone that is knowledgeable with the foot and its structures.

[stuckathuntermtn]

When I worked at Round House, I made my own customs. I also have a very high and long arch. I had a bad experience with the cork vacuum suction highchair thingies. Maybe it was the fitter, but they turned into uncomfortable lumps under my foot.
When I made my last set, it was the step on a bag of sand kind (instaprint?). I made sure to pull up on the arch when I did it. Been a few years since then, and they're still great. I didn't flatten out the forefoot enough, which I can feel, so make sure they do that (another reason I didn't like the cork). The arch is so high, the insole is in there so tight, and my ankles are so strong, I didn't even post them. May or may not let my arch flex, but idk. It works.

[SgtSkidmark]

I've got Conform'ables and it looks like they are made of fiberglass. I've had green and black (moldable) superfeet and corks. The Conform'ables are not cheap, but the best IMO and I have very high arches. I don't like the corks because they just lock your foot into one position and you have to use your leg muscles more. With Conform'ables or similar, they provide plenty of support but allow your feet to do what they are made to do (absorb shock and make small corrections to balance). I have a background in biomechanics, kinesiology, and understand the complexities of the foot fairly well (at least I think I do). I know people swear by corks, but I firmly believe you can make more athletic movements with a little give in your arch support. If you keep the bones of the foot locked into one position, you can't use the smaller proprioceptive muscles to maintain balance/posture, and every bump or impact will be absorbed by your large muscle groups, tiring you out faster. Good luck!

PS-Could be placebo effect, but I really noticed a difference in turn initiation and making dynamic adjustments with my new footbeds. I felt more "connected" to the skis.

[DasBlunt]

When I worked at Round House, I made my own customs. I also have a very high and long arch. I had a bad experience with the cork vacuum suction highchair thingies. Maybe it was the fitter, but they turned into uncomfortable lumps under my foot.
When I made my last set, it was the step on a bag of sand kind (instaprint?). I made sure to pull up on the arch when I did it. Been a few years since then, and they're still great. I didn't flatten out the forefoot enough, which I can feel, so make sure they do that (another reason I didn't like the cork). The arch is so high, the insole is in there so tight, and my ankles are so strong, I didn't even post them. May or may not let my arch flex, but idk. It works.

I want you as my fitter.

[Climber Joe]

Thanks for all the info guys. The main problem, even with my SOLE inserts, is that inward foot input results in my navicular falling into the wall of my boot. I also need to get a full thermo liner to swallow up some ankle volume, but I want to get a good insole first. I will see how much its gonna cost to go see a foot doctor person dude.

thanks again

[Wild4umlauts]

^^^^^^^^^ Joe - that's a boot shell fit issue. You need to take a step back and look at the whole picture (shell, liner, footbed). Get thee to a real boot fitter toot sweet.

[Wild4umlauts]

I've got Conform'ables and it looks like they are made of fiberglass. I've had green and black (moldable) superfeet and corks. The Conform'ables are not cheap, but the best IMO and I have very high arches. I don't like the corks because they just lock your foot into one position and you have to use your leg muscles more. With Conform'ables or similar, they provide plenty of support but allow your feet to do what they are made to do (absorb shock and make small corrections to balance). I have a background in biomechanics, kinesiology, and understand the complexities of the foot fairly well (at least I think I do). I know people swear by corks, but I firmly believe you can make more athletic movements with a little give in your arch support. If you keep the bones of the foot locked into one position, you can't use the smaller proprioceptive muscles to maintain balance/posture, and every bump or impact will be absorbed by your large muscle groups, tiring you out faster. Good luck!

PS-Could be placebo effect, but I really noticed a difference in turn initiation and making dynamic adjustments with my new footbeds. I felt more "connected" to the skis.

Excellent - take this as gospel - the man knows of what he speaks. I'm on Conform'ables (Ski Pro) this season and it was the best move I've ever made for my skiing.

Superfeet Kork = Krap

[Core Shot]

Confromables are thermo molded plastic, but the posting underneath is what makes them solid and long lasting.

FYI - confromables also make crappy off the shelf insoles too.

what you need is a SKI specific PEDORTHIST that understands ski bio-mechanics

If you just go to an MD Podiatrist, that does not ski, they will make you some sweet insoles for everyday use, but those insoles may or may not work for you skiing.

When a skilled bootfitter pedorthist makes a conformable footbed for you, they use a sand bed (its covered in vinyl) and they mash and mold the sand bed to fit your foot shape before they apply vaccuum to the sand to harden it - then they mold the insole to fit between you and that sand bed.

The difference in a good bootfitter is that they dont just mold your existing foot
- THEY MOVE AND ADJUST YOUR FOOT AND THE FOOTBED TO WHERE YOUR FOOT SHOULD BE WHILE SKIING

This is the key thing most folks do not understand.
Putting the insole on your foot and vacuum bagging it does not work
Buying off the shelf insoles does not work.
Scanning your foot and reproducing the digital scan does not work.

It is the micro adjustment of where your foot SHOULD be while skiing that makes all the difference.
Make an arch too strong, and it will be uncomfortable.
Make it too weak and you will pronate.
The footbed molder is not just looking at your feet either.
He is checking and adjusting the alignment of your knee and lower leg too.


FYI - there is a good thread in here somewhere about the difference between weighted and unweighted footbeds and it has some good info.

PS - good footbed is $200-300 unless you can find a bro deal

[Core Shot]

So I have really weird feet. They are very wide, with a "6th toe" and short/fat. But I also have arches like the golden gate. They literally go from the heel to the ball of my foot. I really want to get some real custom footbeds. The problem I run into, is most "custom" shop fit footbeds have inadequate arch support, either in height, or length. I literally need a "made from ground up" type footbed. There is a shop up in Big Sky that does AmFit bootbeds, but I was wondering if there is anything better?

Amfit is a scanner system.
when you stand on the scanner, your foot is already collapsed.
the footbed they will make you will be collapsed also.

If they scan your foot without weighting, the arch will probably be too high.

Its an art as well as a science.
That is why the person is as important as the technology they use.

Any suggestions are welcome. I would really love to get my boots fitting properly. If it helps, I have some "SOLE" inserts that were like three sizes too big, cut to fit, and they still do not have enough arch support.
Thanks!

those are not true custom inserts.
Your arch is too long and freaky to work with any off the shelf product.

FYI - $300 seems like a lot, but they last at least 10 years or more, and that's only $30 a season to ski in comfort and amazing control


there must be at least one master fitter in MT. If not, head to JH WY and see Matt Sheets at TVS. Schedule an appointment before you drive down - the guy gets booked up since he is so good.

[L7]

Amfit is a scanner system.
when you stand on the scanner, your foot is already collapsed.
the footbed they will make you will be collapsed also.

If they scan your foot without weighting, the arch will probably be too high.

Its an art as well as a science.
That is why the person is as important as the technology they use.

Using an amfit system offers pretty much what instaprint/conformable offers in that properly used the foot should be adjusted/manipulated into a proper ski position. This can be done with an appropriate amount of weighting to achieve the most functional results. Many Pedorthists actually use the system.

This varies quite a bit from how most Surefit uses it.... like you said the technology is only as good as the monkey using it no matter what it is.

Another benefit of the Amfit scan is you can scan in a heel support. This corrects alignment at the heel and adjusts the rest of the foot while scanning. This is much harder to do with sand bags but not impossible. I still think this may be an important feature for the OP without ever seeing his foot or knowing what a winlass test shows.

However, as I said in my first post Amfit does have some limitations in arch height and this may cause it to be a poor choice for the OP.

[XXX-er]

the soles are a pretty agressive arch support ,I have done blind comparisons in my ski boot with my customs and not tell the difference and I have very flat feet

go to a good foot guy ,my guy takes the mold AND makes them from the raw materials ...so he does the entire process

[cbrpaul]

SgtSkidmark (footbed compliance) and Wild4ulauts (shell fit) are on the money. So is Coreshot's comment on properly positioning the foot to a skiing position. It is hard as heck to find people that do all of the above. I have gone to skiing pedorthists that hosed me. The only person I've experienced that can do it all is PJ Dewey at RaceStockSports in Waterbury, VT. I live in Michigan. It was worth the trip. If you can't find anyone nearby, head to VT. It's snowing.

[knumbskull]

I had a pair of custom insoles made. I think it was the conformable process, or something similar. I have high arches and generally good feet. I was looking for more support/control as all my prior footbeds felt non existant. They fit my foot exactly and I can't describe how unbelievably excruciating they were. Standing in the shop they felt great but while skiing hard and working my feet/legs it would gradually begin to feel like i was standing on a golf ball in each arch. It hurt so much I would have to stop skiing, which had never happened to my prior to footbeds. The bootfitter is a good guy and I have taken them back to him several times to remove supporting foam. They have gotten considerably better and I think they may only need one more minor adjustment.

[Wild4umlauts]

I had a pair of custom insoles made. I think it was the conformable process, or something similar. I have high arches and generally good feet. I was looking for more support/control as all my prior footbeds felt non existant. They fit my foot exactly and I can't describe how unbelievably excruciating they were. Standing in the shop they felt great but while skiing hard and working my feet/legs it would gradually begin to feel like i was standing on a golf ball in each arch. It hurt so much I would have to stop skiing, which had never happened to my prior to footbeds. The bootfitter is a good guy and I have taken them back to him several times to remove supporting foam. They have gotten considerably better and I think they may only need one more minor adjustment.

Supporting foam? WTF did you have made? I've got the Ski Pro model and there's no "supporting foam" involved. In fact, there's no posting whatsoever on their ski specific footbeds. Seems to me that the fitter took some liberties there with his own ideas about how to build a footbed. That's not normal Conform'able "protocol" for footbed creation with their system.

[knumbskull]

The bootfitters website lists the custom orthotic as "Conform'able insoles built to your specific needs. Will generally outlast 2-3 pairs of boots." The footbed is molded to my foot and there is foam under to give it its structure. The foam can be sanded down to reduce the support in various locations.

[stuckathuntermtn]

You usually need the foam to make the bottom flat. So let's say you have a lot of pronation, this would help counter it.
Wild4, I like what you're saying. Yeah, you definitely need your foot muscles to be able to work.

[Wild4umlauts]

New/modern school of thought - non-posted footbeds allow the foot to articulate laterally in the boot shell so that you can easily pressure the medial wall and use the fine motor balancing movements of the feet rather that the larger gross movements of the upper leg.

Fully posted footbeds tend to "lock out" these movements in your feet if you have a good tight shell fit. Superfeet Kork are notoriously problematic because of their design.

If you have a good shell fit and correct cuff alignment there's usually not a lot more that needs to be done to keep your foot in a good neutral position. A footbed that properly supports your foot without limiting function (balance movements) is the goal. Of course there are those guys that have feet that need more serious help and a compromise has to be found where some posting may be necessary to ensure good function for them.

[DasBlunt]

please define "fully posted" vs "non-posted".

thanks!

[Caucasian Asian]

Posted footbeds are solid under the arch and around the heel, leaving the bottome of the footbed flat.

Non-posted footbeds don't have the extra support from the material underneath, just the footbed themselves. Non-posted 'beds will flex a bit depedning on how rigid the footbed material is. They will usually also take up a little less volume than post footbeds.