Little Slide on Mt. Baker on Yo-Beat, how many things were wrong here?

[DasBlunt]

http://www.yobeat.com/2010/11/28/ava...er-does-exist/


[ame="http://vimeo.com/17250122"]Hemies Avy on Vimeo[/ame]

[DasBlunt]

i ask that question because it looks like 1. someone dropped in above him, 2. the skiers where he stopped were clueless 3. he was yelling and "whooping" it up in the BC.

fuck, 3 strikes you're almost dead.

[pbourdon]

Saw this on SevenYearsWinter the other day. You don't think that thing got kicked off when he landed that frontside air? That was my thought. That whole area is ripe with convex rolls for what its worth. My other thought is that they may have been jumping the gun a bit as far as getting onto that terrain with all that new (fairly dry, especially for WA according to the reports I've read) snow before allowing it to set up a bit more.

It probably wasn't the wisest place for the skiers to stop, but in their defense it probably wasn't wise on that guys part to drop in essentially right above them either?

Beyond that I'm outta my league, I only know a little tiny bit about this stuff but I'm looking forward to learning a lot more about safe BC practices this year in CO (read: looking for experienced, smart people to learn from). Beacon, probe and shovel have been ordered. Either way, its a pretty scary moment considering the one skier is totally buried.

[DasBlunt]

Saw this on SevenYearsWinter the other day. You don't think that thing got kicked off when he landed that frontside air? That was my thought. That whole area is ripe with convex rolls for what its worth. My other thought is that they may have been jumping the gun a bit as far as getting onto that terrain with all that new (fairly dry, especially for WA according to the reports I've read) snow before allowing it to set up a bit more.

It probably wasn't the wisest place for the skiers to stop, but in their defense it probably wasn't wise on that guys part to drop in essentially right above them either?

Beyond that I'm outta my league, I only know a little tiny bit about this stuff but I'm looking forward to learning a lot more about safe BC practices this year in CO (read: looking for experienced, smart people to learn from). Beacon, probe and shovel have been ordered. Either way, its a pretty scary moment considering the one skier is totally buried.

Agreed on him dropping in above them too. I just thought someone else dropped in above him. The guy has another video he made after this, he knows his shit, so i will not second guess him too much, but mistakes are mistakes, even if everything worked out. Yelling in the middle of a run like you are taking a party run at the local resort is a no-no.

[DasBlunt]

Yeah, watching it again, he says sorry to the skiers. Looks like they were digging for a ski, or for the guy in yellow?

[PNWbrit]

Guy needs a good kicking.

And his stupid fucking gopro inserted where the sun doesn't shine.

[pbourdon]

Agreed on him dropping in above them too. I just thought someone else dropped in above him. The guy has another video he made after this, he knows his shit, so i will not second guess him too much, but mistakes are mistakes, even if everything worked out. Yelling in the middle of a run like you are taking a party run at the local resort is a no-no.

He's a solid rider for sure, I saw the other videos too. That being said, if we're not second guessing him too much why'd you post this? Not trying to be a dick by saying that. But I mean, if we're not second guessing the decisions that led to this incident aren't we potentially putting ourselves in the same position in the future? I agree, shit happens for sure. But I also thought the name of this game is safety, not only for you, but for others on the hill with you.

As someone who is very new to this game (I do have some sidecountry experience in Tahoe), I'd really like to learn more from those that know more about the proper procedures in the BC. Knowing what I know about hemis (from having been at Baker in '08) little slides like this are pretty common. The area is full of convex rolls as I mentioned before and in general doesn't have a lot of vegetation to anchor the snow. So, that being said, where do we go from here? Obviously the skiers were not stopped in a true safe zone, and the rider was a moron for dropping in above them and especially for taking the risk of airing that drop when conditions may not have been suitable for that kind of stuff.

I'd really like to hear what some Baker/PNW locals have to say about this aside from the fact that he needs the GoPro shoved where the sun don't shine. I agree though that the prevalence of POV cams and general cam-slutting has probably caused a lot more incidents to occur because people want to impress their friends on the internet.

So where do we go from here???

[DasBlunt]

There were mistakes made, I wanted to hear from those with more experience to confirm.
I just said I would not second guess him personally too much as we know nothing of the other details before and after the slide. From what we do see, things can be learned and gleaned from my own knowledge.

Avalanche summary is not generally nice to the subjects, so no worries.

[CookieMonster]

I think the facts are a bit thin to perform any useful analysis.

Does anyone know:

1. Where was the slide?
2. What was the size of the slide?
3. Was anyone fully buried?
4. Who had rescue gear?
5. Current conditions?

If these guys are simply "unaware", then you could expect to see behaviour that a skilled backcountry skier would regard as the height of stupidity.

As the old saying goes: if your friends jumped off a bridge...

[pbourdon]

I think the facts are a bit thin to perform any useful analysis.

Does anyone know:

1. Where was the slide?
2. What was the size of the slide?
3. Was anyone fully buried?
4. Who had rescue gear?
5. Current conditions?

If these guys are simply "unaware", then you could expect to see behaviour that a skilled backcountry skier would regard as the height of stupidity.

As the old saying goes: if your friends jumped off a bridge...

Are you saying in the real world or based on the vid?

From the vid,
1.I know that the slide was somewhere in Hemispheres at Baker ( I know its a fairly large area)
2.The size of the slide doesn't look to be massive by any means, but it does look to be capable of a full burial.
3.Its hard to tell if the guy in yellow got fully buried, if he was just another partial.
4.Don't know
5.Can really, truly only speculate. Looks like a substantial amount of new snow. Overcast, temp who knows..etc.

I guess what I'm wondering is what can we take away from this video? Other than don't drop above people that are not in the safest of zones. And Don't be someone stopping in a not so safe zone. What else?

[hop]

The archived weather and avy forecasts are here:

http://www.nwac.us/weatherdata/mtbakerskiarea/10day/

http://www.nwac.us/archive/sabsea_2010-11-27-1120.html

[pbourdon]

Thanks Hop...

so...

Saturday and Saturday night: Gradually decreasing danger Saturday becoming CONSIDERABLE above 6000 feet and MODERATE below late Saturday, with greatest danger on steep exposed north through east facing terrain at higher elevations.

Sunday and Sunday night: Further slowly decreasing danger becoming MODERATE below 7000 feet. Greatest danger persisting on north through east exposures at higher elevations.
Snowpack Analysis

Strong winds and snowfall Thanksgiving night and yesterday deposited some 5 to 10 inches of wind affected snow over most areas. This snow has been deposited over large amounts of previously unconsolidated colder and weak snow deposited earlier in the week. This has created unstable surface snow layers and an upside-down snow profile in many areas. There were many observed signs of these unstable layers Friday with whumphing, shooting cracks and some triggered soft slabs being reported from the Mt Baker area and also near Hurricane Ridge in the Olympics.

As of Saturday morning, these layers have begun to strengthen through the settlement and consolidation process as winds and snowfall have eased.

A generally shallow early season snow cover is maintaining significant terrain and vegetative anchoring, helping to limit the danger below about 4000 feet.

Extra caution should be used when venturing onto steep exposed terrain, especially at higher elevations where lingering unstable layers may persist. There may yet be a bit of upside down surface snow layers as wind and temperature affected snow overlies weaker cold snow deposited earlier in the week. This should be especially the case on steep north through east facing terrain at higher elevations above about 6000 feet.

So Hemis isn't above 6k, but its getting awfully close, and its definitely a N-NE aspect by and large. So the next question is, when did this happen on Saturday? Snow reports are saying 10" of new on top of another 5-6" from the day before....so where do we go from here? Given what NWAC was saying, maybe it would've been wiser to scale things back until Sunday? Ultimately, (luckily) no one was hurt (and had multiple burials occurred, recovery would've likely been swift given the proximity of the other group members), and this slide was by no means massive, and again shit happens; but still, how could this have been done better? Or can we not really say since we weren't there? I just would like to know what I, as someone who is trying to learn more about safe BC practices and travel as well as more about the causes of slides can take away from this video?

[hop]

It had to have been after 10:50, because by then there were only four tracks down Hemispheres.

Edit: since I was in the first party up and down Hemispheres that day, I'll tell you how we did it to minimize the risks:

Edit #2: Internet readers may have their own ideas on the safest way to travel and that's fine w/ them. This what we felt comfortable with and that's fine for us.

First, we skinned up, assessed the snow on the way up, and made sure to maintain our spacing when crossing steeper areas or areas above terrain traps (there are plenty of both right now).

Once on top we split into two groups of two. We discussed our lines and exits, which were at that point limited to either far skier's left (fairly mellow and almost a traverse) or more fall line, which is steeper. The first group went down the mellowest part of Hemispheres and stopped above the bottom in a safe zone so they could watch the second group descend. The second group (including me) went down a slightly steeper region. I had skied this same line a few days earlier so I knew exactly what terrain features, hazards, and cruxes I was facing. The final exit was the biggest crux since it involved a hard right turn on a steep face above exposure into a little double-stager. Group 1 was waiting below and to the side and let me know that they kicked off a little slide on the edge of the same face and my 2nd was watching from above me.

I skied the line as quickly and lightly as possible, then my 2nd skied it (his sluff on the right turn broke a small pool table sized slab but he was long gone by that point), then group 1 traversed over from their safe spot and made their exit.

A couple hours later I was riding up chair six and noticed one more fracture in between Group 1's fracture and our exit path, a lot of tracks zig-zagging back and forth indicating people had no clue where they were, and I watched a group of five skiers all skiing down at once. I'm glad I was with smart partners and we were up there before anyone else had a chance to drop in on top of us, because that sort of shit happens all the time in the slackcountry around the ski area. I'm also glad I had done my homework and knew my line so I could minimize my exposure time.

Here's a pic of the exit taken at 10:49:

[pbourdon]

Great writeup Hop...thanks again.

[Eluder]

Thanks for the post Hop,

This is my first season at Baker. This last week I have stopped and watched a lot of strange decisions in this area. Maybe its the close proximity to inbounds but skiing as a large group seems to be pretty normal in this area... It kinda reminds me of the seen at Saddle Peak (o.b. at Bridger) Lots of people, easy access and very enticing. Like most others I am sure, other riders are my biggest worry in these side country areas.

[hop]

Yes, the slackcountry around Baker is rife with people that leave their brains behind in their quest for powder bonanzas right beyond the ropes. There's really nothing you can do about it except (nicely, or not...depends on the situation) let people know how stupid they are when you see it happen, and do your best to minimize your time in places where bad things can happen.

Also, please feel free to chew out any skier or snowboarder that's bootpacking in a skin track.

On a slightly different subject, maybe it's because I'm used to wearing my transceiver and carrying all of my BC gear and skins every day that I think it's completely crazy that people ski stuff like West Shore at Kirkwood or Revelstoke w/o gear. At Revy there's often a huge pile of backpacks at the bottom of the chair waiting for their owners to return from the gnar. WTF? Hey pal, you might actually want/need that stuff. Is it really that hard to carry? Does it really slow you down that much that you're willing to go w/o?

[CookieMonster]

Thanks to HOP for the great information.

***

It's clear from these descriptions that the snow was unstable, but it also sounds like the resulting avalanches weren't running large. Of course, you have to take avalanche size with a heavy dose of salt, because about half of all avalanche fatalities involve slides that are basically tiny.

***

HOP, quick question without any judgment, implied or otherwise. Did your observations on the way up align with the reality of instability in the area on the day in question?

I just would like to know what I, as someone who is trying to learn more about safe BC practices and travel as well as more about the causes of slides can take away from this video?

Video = what not to do, what not to become?

There is a big difference between skill and experience. Many ski areas have lots of people with a significant amount of side/backcountry experience who possess low overall skill. I've seen this at numerous ski areas, and it's not just the "gaper" factor either. A lot of it boils down to Monkey see = Monkey do.

[hop]

HOP, quick question without any judgment, implied or otherwise. Did your observations on the way up align with the reality of instability in the area on the day in question?

After ski cutting a few places we knew that triggering a little pocket was possible/probable, but we also felt confident that we knew the likely locations of those pockets in our lines and could manage them effectively.

The Mt. Baker backcountry policy is here:
http://www.mtbaker.us/1011/mtn-safet...ountry-policy/

"If you leave the ski area boundary into the backcountry or re-enter the ski area from the backcountry, you must have all of the following or you will lose your ski area privileges:

1. Avalanche transceiver and demonstrated ability to use it
2. A partner
3. Shovel
4. Knowledge of the terrain and your ability
5. Avalanche knowledge
6. Knowledge of local avalanche conditions;
• know this winter’s snowpack layers
• know the recent snowfall & type
• know current NWAC forecast
• know today’s weather forecast (snowfall, temperature & visibility)"

From my observations over the years (and the carnage on Hemispheres last Saturday is a perfect example), I think a lot of the BC users at Baker have the gear and look the part, but are really lacking on 4, 5, and 6.

[Alaskan Rover]

Never been to Baker, so am not totally aware the usual snow density/water content for that area...but it seems these were some kids that riding and skiing, having a good time...they get into it, focus on their turns and forget that in the backcountry (no matter where you are), you should always keep one eye on the terrain above. After a while it just gets second nature...like keeping an eye out for pooping seas when sailing with following seas.

I'm not really going to go out on a limb and say they were amateurs that shouldn't have been in the BC pow, because I too have let my "pow euphoria" take over for a few scant seconds, enough for shit to happen...it happens to anybody.

But I can't stress enough the need to keep one eye cocked for the terrain above at all times, especially if you don't have any avi gear with you.

Maybe the kids dropping in now know that their actions DO have repercussions!!

EDIT:
HOP...I didn't see your above post until after I'd already commented. Excellent points on familiarizing yourself with the local avi conditions/history BEFORE you go out in the morning. A little groundwork can save a whole bunch of grief.

[vivid007]

biggest mistake: not dropping the goPro immediately after the slide - seems like he was more concerned with getting the shot than he was with recovering a partially buried person!