Berthoud Photo/Conditions Thread (2010-2011)

[PowTrout]

How was it up there today? dust on crust? lots of wind load i assume from the gusts and dry cold snow.

[bamboocoreONLY]

curious as well. My ride flaked out due to the temps, and it didn't snow as much as I thought (at least in the WP area...) so I went back to sleep haha.

[summit]

Skied the rock chute on the north face of Russell today (skiers left of the prominent line down the north side of Russell). Checked stability with several ski cuts and things were far better than a few days ago.

I've seen you mention using ski cuts as a backcountry "stability test" quite a bit. Just curious as to your meaning and thought process?

[jbski]

I've seen you mention using ski cuts as a backcountry "stability test" quite a bit. Just curious as to your meaning and thought process?

Doing an active test, to actively try to make something slide, by skiing across it at a weak point. Obviously this requires a safe zone that you can get to quickly if something does slide. I don't recommend this type of test for someone new to backcountry and avalanche terrain. I've been doing them myself for the past ~5 years but watched and learned from others doing them for ~5 years prior.

Sometimes I do them on small test slopes (with similar aspect and angle) and sometimes I'll do them on top of a line I'm interested in if things are set up right so it can be done quickly and without getting caught if a slide releases. If done correctly it can give you a really good idea of what is happening in the snowpack (ESPECIALLY if you get something to move). Plus, by doing a ski cut where you can ski quickly into a safe zone, it exposes you a lot less than if you were to try and dig a pit on the slope that you want to ski. They're a handy tool if wielded correctly and with respect.

[freejustin]

Doing an active test, to actively try to make something slide, by skiing across it at a weak point. Obviously this requires a safe zone that you can get to quickly if something does slide. I don't recommend this type of test for someone new to backcountry and avalanche terrain. I've been doing them myself for the past ~5 years but watched and learned from others doing them for ~5 years prior.

Sometimes I do them on small test slopes (with similar aspect and angle) and sometimes I'll do them on top of a line I'm interested in if things are set up right so it can be done quickly and without getting caught if a slide releases. If done correctly it can give you a really good idea of what is happening in the snowpack (ESPECIALLY if you get something to move). Plus, by doing a ski cut where you can ski quickly into a safe zone, it exposes you a lot less than if you were to try and dig a pit on the slope that you want to ski. They're a handy tool if wielded correctly and with respect.

That's cool, but remember that ski cuts do not work with hard slabs. If you're just concerned with soft slabs or surface instabilities in the new snow, then cool. But with hard slabs you have to think about the slab thickness and stiffness--they bridge your weight. Also, the ski cut won't reveal what could happen when you cruise over a shallow buried rock and are able to affect one of these persistent weak layers we have...

[jbski]

That's cool, but remember that ski cuts do not work with hard slabs. If you're just concerned with soft slabs or surface instabilities in the new snow, then cool. But with hard slabs you have to think about the slab thickness and stiffness--they bridge your weight. Also, the ski cut won't reveal what could happen when you cruise over a shallow buried rock and are able to affect one of these persistent weak layers we have...

True and well said!

[summit]

Doing an active test, to actively try to make something slide, by skiing across it at a weak point.

The second half is more accurate than the first half of this statement. You ARE trying to make it slide. However, it is a control technique more than a test. Why? Because as a test, it has an ABSOLUTELY AWFUL tendency to give a FALSE STABLE result, particularly in the Colorado snowpack where we are facing hard slab and deep instability. These hazards also have a bad tendency to not let you ski off of them if they release, even with extreme skiing ability (which we know you posses).

Sometimes I do them on small test slopes (with similar aspect and angle)

I think that is a very valid use!

If done correctly it can give you a really good idea of what is happening in the snowpack (ESPECIALLY if you get something to move).

When dealing with hard slab and deep slabs, ski cuts ONLY tell you something IF you get a result... and you do NOT want to get a result! If you think you will, you don't want to be skiing the line anyway, right?

Plus, by doing a ski cut where you can ski quickly into a safe zone, it exposes you a lot less than if you were to try and dig a pit on the slope that you want to ski. They're a handy tool if wielded correctly and with respect.

First, and I know you know this, but for everyone else, you ONLY do a ski cut when can ride momentum into a safe zone (unless on a test slope).

Second: When gathering information, when I am facing seeking low reliability information to limit my risk, I ask myself: "Do I need this additional information to make a decision? If I need the information, but am not comfortable seeking the right information I need, am I willing to accept skiing the line?"

Making the first drop in a line on an escape trajectory to a safe zone can certainly be a way to limit vulnerability on entry. However, doing it with the goal of testing/mitigating a slab is a self-defeating risk management tactic.

remember that ski cuts do not work with hard slabs. If you're just concerned with soft slabs or surface instabilities in the new snow, then cool. But with hard slabs you have to think about the slab thickness and stiffness--they bridge your weight. Also, the ski cut won't reveal what could happen when you cruise over a shallow buried rock and are able to affect one of these persistent weak layers we have...

Right on the money, freejustin!

In Colorado where the pack is, as was mentioned, thin... and wrought with multiple weak layers underlying multiple hard slabs. As a test, what exactly are you testing for? Hard slabs are notorious for luring skiers out onto them, then breaking off above once the right trigger spot is found (eg a thin area near a hidden rock as was mentioned). Also, triggering a surface instability can easily step down around here.

Ski cuts might make sense to remove a new soft snow hazard up in Alaska or PNW or sometimes in a Colorado isothermal pack: when there isn't the immediate stepdown/hardslab/deep hazard. They are also useful for a ski patroller mitigating shallow hazards in continuously controlled terrain inside a ski area. Ski patrollers use ski cuts frequently. However, they are far from risk free. There is a reason that ski patrollers are in so many avalanches, albeit usually small and your don't ever read about it unless there are particularly severe, and then sometimes not!

Ski cuts are an expert tool that are useful in a very limited set of environments against a very limited set of hazards. Determining the RARE situation (many professionals would say NEVER) under which a ski cut is a useful tool in the Colorado backcountry requires, as was mentioned, extensive experience, education, and knowledge of the current snowpack. Thus, the reason for this discussion: I feel the nonchalant mentions of a ski cut by many on the forum perpetuate to the misperception in the Colorado BC community that ski cuts should be a regular part of the BC toolkit.

MISUSE OF SKI CUTS IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER

[jbski]

TI feel the nonchalant mentions of a ski cut by many on the forum perpetuate to the misperception in the Colorado BC community that ski cuts should be a regular part of the BC toolkit.

MISUSE OF SKI CUTS IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER

Again, very well said and I'm certainly learning from things in there too! Much appreciated. My apologies for being nonchalant about it, I hadn't even thought about how others might misinterpret what I said.

To perhaps clear it up a bit, my first ski cuts from several days ago DID get results on about the top ~10". No fracture propagation, but point releases that grew as they continued downhill (but slowed fairly quickly). That day we opted for different routes down. My most recent ski cuts yielded no results. I know this isn't necessarily a "green light" but it is indicative of a change for the better in the snowpack.


Thanks again, and THIS sort of conversation is exactly what forums/threads like this are for.

See ya out there!

[nrd]

MISUSE OF SKI CUTS IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER

Amen. Learned that one the hard way. Hope someone else doesn't have to.

[Officer_McLawdog]

just saw this on NS... tried to find a link to the clip on 4frnt's page but their video section wasn't working.

http://www.newschoolers.com/ns/conte.../video/405116/

[summit]

just saw this on NS... tried to find a link to the clip on 4frnt's page but their video section wasn't working.

http://www.newschoolers.com/ns/conte.../video/405116/

"Check out the other tracks to see what is safe"
"Ski cut anything without tracks"
"Ski cut the windslab"
"The snow is pretty consolidated. It looks good. I feel pretty confident."


I love 4FRNT. I love my EHPs. I love watching EH and MS ski. But EH, MS, and 4FRNT should be ashamed of that video. They should take it down.

[Officer_McLawdog]

"Check out the other tracks to see what is safe"
"Ski cut anything without tracks"
"Ski cut the windslab"
"The snow is pretty consolidated. It looks good. I feel pretty confident."


I love 4FRNT. I love my EHPs. I love watching EH and MS ski. But EH, MS, and 4FRNT should be ashamed of that video. They should take it down.

my thoughts exactly, i was pretty surprised that EH would support such a thing.

[jbski]

Stuck to trees for the most part today because of pretty significant avy danger. I got an STE, Q2 at ~12"-16". Upon doing a ski cut in an area close to "The Roll" I cut off a small slide and remote triggered two more (one to the skiers right and one well below). This was more than enough to convince us to bail on our original cliff intentions. Instead had great tree skiing and LOTS of faceshots.

The parking lot as the biggest clown show I've ever seen. Fortunately all those clowns must be skiing in the same place because our party broke trail to every location that we hit today and only saw a few other people when actually skiing.


[rant]STOP BOOT PACKING UP THE SKIN TRACK! Two days ago I had to deal with boot packers in front of me on the skin track douching it up 3 laps in a row. Yesterday I broke the skin track after it got covered up, and on the second lap someone had chunked it up with an unnecessary boot pack. Again, the skin track was totally covered and I broke the skin track this morning shortly after dawn. On my second lap up I caught up to some gapers who were completely douching it up and post holing and making it far more difficult for the skinnners. It is the first time in the backcountry that I kind of yelled at someone...I felt kind of like an ass but I just got fed up with it (especially since there is a PERFECTLY GOOD BOOT PACK on the other side of the trees).

Oh, and if you let your dog take a dump in the skin track, you should be required to remove it with you mouth...[/rant]

[SlackSkier]

I was up there friday and that dog shit was there!

[fluxrad]

The parking lot as the biggest clown show I've ever seen. Fortunately all those clowns must be skiing in the same place because our party broke trail to every location that we hit today and only saw a few other people when actually skiing.

Desn't most of the shit-show go on pretty close to the road? There were a metric fuckton of folks thumbing it up on the WP side on my way home today. At least I think most of them were beeping.

Hitchhiking PROTIP: Don't stand there with your thumb up in the air on the part of the switchback where no one can stop to pick you up

[FiveLarge]

From last Thursday. Despite the lack of snow over the previous 10ish days and really warm temps a week prior, found some really nice snow and untracked areas on a couple different aspects. Dug a couple pits and found a snowpack that matched up with CAIC's report that day - East-ish aspects had some pretty strong layers separated by very thin weak layers (surface hoar?). Shears were fairly clean, but no energy, and it took quite a bit to get them to budge. North-ish aspects had a surface layer of 8" or so that was prone to sluff. Could see those being particularly reactive now with all the new loading.

[fluxrad]

That's a great shot. Where is that?

[PowTrout]

Anyone know when Berthoud opened back up yesterday? My friends and I got seriously fucked driving from Silverthorne to try and hit MJ super early and ended up getting stuck in empire cause of Berthoud closing. Realizing that we would have to endure the shitty traffic both eastbout and westbound on the tunnel if we wanted to ski at Copper for the day, we ended up driving back to denver to sadly watch the Superbowl. Was the ultimate ski failure haha but ill be up there tuesday-friday to get my revenge!

[Elkhound Odin]

I would be nice if everyone took a crap at home before getting the to pass. You could smell the latrine up the hill on Saturday. Odin & I took a couple laps in HHA. Very nice conditions. I hit a shallow spot coming down Sentinal Chute and kicked off a little surface sluff. Odin got caught in it, but didn't get pulled down, he just kinda rode on the surface. I decided that was enough for the day.

[FiveLarge]

I believe Bert opened around 2:30pm yesterday.

[PowTrout]

You guys think it will most likely get shut down on Tuesday as well after the Monday night storm? Looks similar to the storm this weekend. Dont wanna get trick fucked again.

[Officer_McLawdog]

You guys think it will most likely get shut down on Tuesday as well after the Monday night storm? Looks similar to the storm this weekend. Dont wanna get trick fucked again.

Sucks you got hosed trying to get up there, I would be constantly checking COtrip.org if you think there is any chance that it might close down. I got up to loveland pass saturday night and hunkered down in the rock limo for 3rd chair sunday at A-bay. At least ONE of us was staying plush... and fancy. If you are heading up on friday let me know, shredding is a must.

[bamboocoreONLY]

You guys think it will most likely get shut down on Tuesday as well after the Monday night storm? Looks similar to the storm this weekend. Dont wanna get trick fucked again.

The only reason they usually close berthoud is if an avy falls on the road. Because it's wide and flat so wind isn't usually an issue. But hopefully it's not closed, I'm heading up bright and early to hit it before school so hopefully I'm not forced to move on to a resort... text me if you're goin' dane!

[PowTrout]

Sucks you got hosed trying to get up there, I would be constantly checking COtrip.org if you think there is any chance that it might close down. I got up to loveland pass saturday night and hunkered down in the rock limo for 3rd chair sunday at A-bay. At least ONE of us was staying plush... and fancy. If you are heading up on friday let me know, shredding is a must.

Yea man im glad to hear that you made it up. Yesterday was probably the most helpless ive felt trying to ski pow in a while. I watched the snow fall all day and night and never got to really enjoy it. However, Bruno and I are planning for a very plush and fancy week out at the hut from Tuesday - Thursday. You should come up Wednesday or whenever you get the chance and get down. Probably gonna ski at a resort Tuesday and then Berthoud wednesday thru friday hopefully.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

[rant]STOP BOOT PACKING UP THE SKIN TRACK! Two days ago I had to deal with boot packers in front of me on the skin track douching it up 3 laps in a row...there is a PERFECTLY GOOD BOOT PACK on the other side of the trees.

What about the geniuses that skin straight up the booter on the west side? Or the skinners that fan out where the booter and skin track meet and make a dozen skin tracks? Pretty sure lacking backcountry etiquette isn't mutually exclusive from your uphill method cause a lot of the people skinning up there are completely clueless as well.

Not to call you out Joel - I just think that the easy-access east and west sides have become such a mess up there, it's not even worth stressing about who does what on a booter/skin track that takes all of 15 minutes to top out on (or at least within 15 minutes of climbing you can get high enough to escape the junkshow).