"We had to destroy it save it" (NSR-politics)

[DaveTV]

The last few weeks sound familiar?

Khe Sanh was besieged for ten days before the Tet Offensive and its agony was played out alongside the catastrophe which the Tet Offensive was to become for the US military efforts. A massive attack on 100 towns, cities and military bases in South Vietnam by guerrilla and North Vietnamese forces took place during Tet. The guerrillas even penetrated into the compound of the US embassy in Saigon, occupied the northern city of Hué for a month, and fought bitter battles in many other towns. The reaction of the US, initially one of shock, was to respond with ferocious and indiscriminate military counter-measures. One town, Ben Tre was totally levelled, provoking the comment of one American officer: ‘We had to destroy it to save it’.

[Blizzard7763]

How far is this Iraq shit going to go?

[Darkside]

How far is this Iraq shit going to go?

I'd guess about 4 more years.

[DaveTV]

This situation is worsening daily - where is the outrage? Our troops who were supposed to come home got ANOTHER 2 month extension in the body bag lottery(on top of the LAST 10 month extension) - I know people there, this is really bugging me. Americans I know seem to be just "tuning out" the daily carnage reports and going on with their little daily routines. Where is the fucking outrage? When is Washington going to wake up??

[Arnold Babar]

And the deficit is up to $166 BILLION. Greenspan just reluctantly raised the debt ceiling to $8 TRILLION. The dollar is plunging, we have fewer allies daily. Half our budget is being spent on this war, and my daughter came home from school the other day and asked me if we could donate change to the troops so they could have armour. The price of oil is sky high. Some people are getting very rich off this shit, and then they use schools and churches to get our kids to extort our change. I've got your outrage right here! This sucks. FUCK BUSH

[KarlHungus]

The last few weeks sound familiar?

Khe Sanh was besieged for ten days before the Tet Offensive...

"What was all that nam shit?" -The Dude, The Big Lebowski

[glademaster]

There won't be the kind of widespread outrage there was during Vietnam until most Americans realize this war is so wrong for not only us but the world. Most people in this country think the war in Iraq was needed and they still support it, despite ever increasing body counts and the fact that it has caused or economy to go to shit.

Either that or a draft, that would get some feathers ruffled, or maybe it wouldn't, maybe the average American is too stupid to realize that the people in power are theives, murderers, liars and war criminals. In order to produce widespread anti-war sentiment, we need an event to take place that will have an impact on those who support the war. I wish no bad will upon anyone, but something needs to be done that will wake these morons up. Sometimes this country really pisses me off.

[Art Vandelay]

blah blah blah...Some people have different views. You think you're right just as people of differing views feel they're right, but this is a SKI forum so get off your soapbox.

[Hmmm!]

blah blah blah...Some people have different views. You think you're right just as people of differing views feel they're right, but this is a SKI forum so get off your soapbox.

While I agree that this is a ski forum, DaveTV's expressed sentiments deserves a lot more respect than this.

You don't care about all of the killing of soldiers, civillians, insurgents, freedom fighters, kindergarteners, police, students, grade schoolers, and grandparents, the outright theft of billions of American taxpayer dollars and billions of Iraq's oil money. I get that.

But......

How dare you disrespect someone does.

[DaveTV]

Oh I already responded to Artie, then deleted it.. Why do so few seem to care? Unbelievable...

[Out_to_lunch]

What I find even more crazy than all this is that while the United States government is off trying to save the world there are children starving in borders. What gets me even more is the fact that people living in million dollar homes dont give a shit. Okay so none of that is really on the topic, but I had to say it.

[fattwins]

The unfortunate side of a strong capitalist society is that greed wins out.
This war is not about freedom or terrorism. Not one Iraqi person crashed a
Plane in 911. If you were after the real people who did it then the Saudi government
Would have been targeted. As with any society that is ahead of the pack greed always wins. It’s too bad that all the good things America stood for are being destroyed. This I think was the true plan or part of Bin Ladens greater plan. We just keep playing the way these people want us to play.

[Art Vandelay]

I never said I didn't care. I did say this is a ski forum.

[Arnold Babar]

I never said I didn't care. I did say this is a ski forum.

Dude, people vent here all the time about all kinds of stuff. We deal with the "off topicness" by posting disclaimers in the title as Dave TV did. You have no gripe. Don't read it if you don't like it. It's simple. Disagree if you like, but don't just dump all over people. I, for one, do care what the people on this board have to say about topics other than skiing, and I've been around long enough to know that Dave TV can be insightful about politics (sometimes) It's not MSNBC, but that's precisely why it is interesting. Keep your incuriousness to yourself. Skip the thread. There are thousands of others.

I thought you were a marine biologist.

[Art Vandelay]

I thought you were a marine biologist.

Fair enough. I'm acutally an importer/exporter.

[Arnold Babar]

is that after you get done working at the latex factory?

[Art Vandelay]

yep.
567891

[iceman]

Dude, people vent here all the time about all kinds of stuff. We deal with the "off topicness" by posting disclaimers in the title as Dave TV did. You have no gripe. Don't read it if you don't like it. It's simple. Disagree if you like, but don't just dump all over people. I, for one, do care what the people on this board have to say about topics other than skiing, and I've been around long enough to know that Dave TV can be insightful about politics (sometimes) It's not MSNBC, but that's precisely why it is interesting. Keep your incuriousness to yourself. Skip the thread. There are thousands of others

There's the point, exactly.

I thought you were a marine biologist.

mmmm, whales.

Big fat whales.

And the occasional dolphin. So sexy.

[Arnold Pants]

A few historical notes:

The Tet Offensive was a military catastrophe for the Viet Cong. It was nothing less than an all or nothing roll of the dice, an attempt to take over South Vietnam, including Saigon, in one fell swoop. When it failed, and when the brutal U.S. response was complete, the Viet Cong was decimated, and the critical losses were to its experienced officer corps. It was as if Washington's crossing of the Potomac on Christmas Eve had been crushed, with Washington and many of his officers killed. Its failure severely limited the chances of a military victory by the Communists, who would have to rely on the far less effective North Vietnamese regulars from there on out.

The Tet Offensive was a psychological catastrophe for the United States. The combination of the attack on the U.S. embassy (a small Viet Cong force made it through the outer wall and occupied a portion of the grounds for about 6 hours) and the scenes of brutal devastation of the Vietnamese countryside were decisive in a nation already turning against the war - largely because of anger over the huge draft.

The end result? They won the war, despite losing the battle. I think this reinforces Glademaster's point about a symbolic event.

It should also be pointed out that regardless of one's view on the legitmacy of the war in Iraq, the recent Falluja operation was an absolute model for a humane takeover of a city, if such a thing is possible. I'd challenge anyone to identify a MILITARY takeover of a defended city with a lower civilian/combatant casualty ratio. You might not ever want to see an army takeover a city, but if it has to happen, we do it better than anyone ever has.

[freshies]

the truth as to what is happening (and the resulting outrage that would naturally follow) has been muffled behind a bogus facade - patriotisim. blind patriotisim. most americans still believe irag/sadam were involved in 9/11. most americans really believe that "we need to fight them over there vs here in columbius, oh" most americans are ignorant, and fat and happy, fed a steady diet of reality tv, cheap gas, super-sized meals and endless credit. there is no real effect if they choose to ignore what is happening. don't read. don't question, just go about your daily life and believe what the government tells you. and oh, should you question its motives, decisions, actions - well, then, you are un-patriotic. un-american.

the only thing that would lead to this outrage is something that effected american where it hurts: in their pocket books. sad but true. if gas was $6 a gallon, taxes were increased on all americans across the borad to reflect what this war really is costing and this administrations economic policies as well, if the draft were to rear its ugly head, if journalism did its job and pointed out what is really happening, showed the carnage that was brought home to our living rooms ea evening (as it was in nam, and why the pentagon would never allow that to happen again) - well, then you might have your outrage.

otherwise, go about your daily lives please. don't ask questions.

[Benny Profane]

Nope, the only thing that will get Americans really aware and pissed off is a draft. yessir, think of this..."Mr. and Mrs. middle class, loyal-yellow ribbon on the trunk of the car, middle manager, overtaxed and debt addicted America. We want your first born son or DAUGHTER. Now." That'll get some fat, self absorbed people who only support this because it's the "safe" thing to do to think a little.

But that still might not happen. I think Bushy Boy will simply pull out prematurely in about two years, just like the dumb ass schoolboy he is. Gotta prepare for the next election, you know - can't have a nasty war goin' on while the Republicans try to continue their dynasty. Jeb's getting bored with just the state of Florida to run.

[shamrockpow]

It should also be pointed out that regardless of one's view on the legitmacy of the war in Iraq, the recent Falluja operation was an absolute model for a humane takeover of a city, if such a thing is possible. I'd challenge anyone to identify a MILITARY takeover of a defended city with a lower civilian/combatant casualty ratio. You might not ever want to see an army takeover a city, but if it has to happen, we do it better than anyone ever has.

First off: we don't know how humane the takeover was, b/c we are not there and only get to see bits and pieces. We do know about the kill rates (funny how they keep track when it's good for PR eh?), targeted bombings, and that one marine shooting the Iraqi who was "faking death." Far be it from me to pass judgement on that guy, but I wish we could have more factual reporting filter through the mainstream media.

The other point relates to how efficient this operation actually was. We let over 200,000 people leave Falluja ahead of time after giving a clear warning of what was going to happen. This was not a takeover of a defended city, this was an operation to flush out and catch terrorists and take away some of their arms supplies. Everybody knows that occupying Fallujah, like the rest of Iraq, will be much harder than taking it initially. The best historical examples we have are from the IDF. While they are considered to be incredibly efficient, even their track record is mixed on results in the long term. This is going to remain a long slog and I would not be shocked to find myself drafted to Tehran or Damascus in the next 4 years.

[FNG]

I think the war was a bad idea. I think leaving Iraq as a broken state is an even worse idea. I'm not outraged by the casualties, because war creates casualties. If Iraq was a terrorist hot-bed before the invasion, it would be 10 fold if the U.S. leaves Iraq w/o first making it a soverign nation. If Iraq becomes that terrorist hot-bed, the U.S. will be their target. The U.S. that invaded their country, destroyed their government and infrastructure, and then left. That's how you make a terrorist hot-bed.