How Do High DIN Bindings Relate to Knee Injuries?

[Dexter Rutecki]

And I do know what you're talking about with learning to trust the new ACL - I remember going through that with my first post-op mountain biking fall and realizing my knee was tougher than I thought it was.

Yeah, like I said, my first one I rehabbed over the summer while teaching tennis, and it wasn't until I lost the brace that I really began to understand that the knee would do what it should. For a long time I couldn't really stop/cut off the bad (left, back then) knee--I'd always take one extra step to stop on the right.
For skiing, my first day back that fall I decided to test it on a jump, and it actually scared the shit out of me when I hit the lip--reminded me too much of how I blew my knee to start with. But once I landed and everything worked, I was pretty much 'cured'.
I've seen those Defiance braces--pretty burly.

[basom]

dex what are the numbers of recurance that you are working with?
i heard something like 3% of skiers comming off an acl rehab, wearing a brace, re-tear their shit. opposed to 8% of recurance for those skiers not wearing a brace. do those number seem right to you?

[altagirl]

dex what are the numbers of recurance that you are working with?
i heard something like 3% of skiers comming off an acl rehab, wearing a brace, re-tear their shit. opposed to 8% of recurance for those skiers not wearing a brace. do those number seem right to you?

Like a month ago my surgeon went to a conference and for the new study that was presented he said the numbers were 4% ACL re-injury for braced skiers, 8% for non-braced skiers.

[basom]

Like a month ago my surgeon went to a conference and for the new study that was presented he said the numbers were 4% ACL re-injury for braced skiers, 8% for non-braced skiers.

heh, now i remember where i got those numbers from. between AG, Dex, Vin, Big E, and myself i figure we could go into busniess consulting skiers about acl reconstruction. bunch of pros we are. TJ would even call us a clique, thats when you know you've hit the big time.

[L7]

Well I guess I'll throw my .02. Sorry if I repeat some I haven't read every post here.

If you are in rehab I'm sure you've heard mention of hamstring strength. That is really the only and best way to protect the ACL. You need to train the hamstring in a full range of movement and I think also to respond quickly. Muscles can be trained for both range and speed of movement as you'll find if you get tested on a cybex machine. The shocks that cause intense reactions of the quad (tail landings etc) also come very fast and the hamstrings have to be able to respond in kind. If not the quads can overpower the hams and POP regardless of binding and in some cases maybe even regardless of brace.

When I had my ACL redone the surgeon said he didn't want me to use a brace. His thinking was assuming I could ski well enough to not fall down for a couple of months that I would ski into condition ALL the muscles through a FULL range of movement. This was on top of and after physical therapy. His repair has seen me through an additional 1200+ days of skiing with only some recent cartiledge problems semi related to the initial injury.

The issue of high DINS on bindings can increase chances of knee injury but probably not as specific to the ACL but the medial ligaments may be at greater risk. High DINs are often used to compensate for what is really a forward pressure or toe height problem causing poor shock retention of the binding. Pre release can also be as easy as not weighting the inside ski. Any ski flailing around unweighted and bouncing off terrain can release due to shock energy. Some are better than others but cranking the DIN is not the answer and keeping pressure on the ski for dampening benefit can be a lot of the solution.

Balanced skiing and the strength (core) to stay balanced is going to do more to prevent injury than high DINs will. The high DIN could very likely contribute to the possibility severity of injury.

[BradyCU]

actually they dont make shitty bindings and they probably have the most sophisticated binding manufactured this year. do you get all your info online? maybe thats why your so fuckin stupid when it comes to skiing. not every component of a manufactured product is listed on a co. site because most people, including yourself, wont understand what theyre talking about.

I'd rather ski markers before atomics, and that's saying something
Atomic's won't let you in if there is one flake of snow on the sole of your boot But on a brighter note they do make good anchors if you need to tie up your boat at tahoe brah!

[BradyCU]

The regular 916 appears to have the older version of Spheric, but without handling one I can't really tell.

I still think the Look design is better, but the 916 is a solid binding.

Yes the regular 916 has the older spheric, it has a lower profile than the new ones; I have a pair and I have a pair of rossi fks 18.5's and I agree the look design is the most bomber of any on the market. You can't hurt those things.

[mildbill.]

One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move and then ride that shit switch into the road

tencharacters

[Spats]

The S916's I have look like they have spheric, but they don't. The AFD only looks like a spheric type, it functions like the 997. The binders are functionally the same as a 997 driver.

That's what I figured...I couldn't imagine all the Salomon pro riders, especially the jibbers, riding a binding that tries to blow you out when you land. Thanks for the info.

[Darkside]

Somewhat plauseable. Sounds more like bad instincts to me though. If turning using your knee/pivoting your foot while in the back seat is part of your skier "instincts", I would recommend working on changing that some how, since that instinct is going blow your knee. There's two other better ways to handle that above situation. One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move. To me, taking a split second to get back on top of things and gaining a little more speed, but then being in total control and being able to steer or check speed, is better than making some half assed move which *might* get you out of trouble, or might not. What if you don't have time to get back in control? That should never happen - you should always leave a little bit on the table, so you can have that split second to get out of trouble if you need it. The other way I guess is to bail out in a controlled manner, falling, or some sort of safety speed check.

Well, that would be all fine and good, but in reality, I don't think this is really how things work. If you really don't ever fall or get out of control, you're either not pushing it, or you must be some sort of pro. Because we all know that pros never fall, and never hurt themselves.

[L7]

I'm not sure you need to take exception with it any more than I would take exception with your DIN chart +50% idea. I would be leery of anything melting down quite that simply. It has some merit though.

I'm not sure how big you are or your boot sole but most of those DINS aren't even really that big. I've skied Sallys 12 at the toe and 14 in the back and walked out of a well set up binding and skied off on the other ski. I would have weighed in about 175 then with a 313 BSL which of course is the other factor. Just a big hole in the course and an unweighted ski.

My real point is the idea of banging up the DIN endlessly when the real problem is lack of forward pressure, worn down boot sole, maladjusted toe height etc. or skiing in the back seat and applying shock forces the bindings will not tolerate. These days I ski a little higher than my recommended DIN in the (3+) category. The rigors of hard skiing go beyond what the DIN charts are designed for.

I certainly don't mean to suggest anyone who ever prereleased doesn't know how to balance on skis (although it is a very common correlation) but the weighting of both skis is another separate factor. Keeping enough weight on both skis enough to dampen the ski can definitely help keep skis on. Ever notice how skiers who ski with weight back alot bend a lot of tips? The unweighted (undampened) front end of the ski takes the impact in a more damaging shot than a centre weighted ski that absorbs the impact more gradually over more of the ski.

Skiing balanced is still more effective for injury avoidance than high DINs. Used intellingently higher DINS have their place as is apparent on the World Cup and big mountain skiing in Alaska. However, using a high DIN to replace the need for balanced skiing is just a recipe for a short ski career.

[summit]

^What he said!

When was the last time you checked the forward pressure? FP that is too low or high will cause prereleases!

When was the last time you checked your toe height with a slide card (for Solly)?

When was the last time you chekced your AFD?

When was the last time you had your boot measured? (Actually measured, not just taking the number off the side! You could be 10mm different!!! This can majorly affect your chart indicated values!)

Checked the heel/toe for DIN compatibility vs wear? Heavily worn toes and heels will cause prereleases.

When was the last time you had your binding tested?????????????????
1 year? 3 years?
Binding age and boot wear can make a huge difference between your VIS and the actual effetive release value! 3 Din isn't extraordinary with worn boots or worn AFD!

[summit]

All my equipment is properly adjusted and in good working order, jong.

Good for you cocksucker.

Very few people would be able to say that.

[Dexter Rutecki]

^What he said!

When was the last time you checked the forward pressure? FP that is too low or high will cause prereleases!

When was the last time you checked your toe height with a slide card (for Solly)?

When was the last time you chekced your AFD?

When was the last time you had your boot measured? (Actually measured, not just taking the number off the side! You could be 10mm different!!! This can majorly affect your chart indicated values!)

Checked the heel/toe for DIN compatibility vs wear? Heavily worn toes and heels will cause prereleases.

When was the last time you had your binding tested?????????????????
1 year? 3 years?
Binding age and boot wear can make a huge difference between your VIS and the actual effetive release value! 3 Din isn't extraordinary with worn boots or worn AFD!

Have never checked forward pressure--jam 'em in, see if it looks and feels (clicks in) right, and go (I guess I've checked my Salomons where it's easy to check).
I use a Metrocard (subway card) for toe height, rarely. If I barely see daylight, it's cool.
What do you mean by check an AFD? If it's there, it's good. AFD seems pretty useless to me--skied years ago before there were AFDs, and release seemed the same. Snow and ice on the AFD affect its supposed function?
Never measured my boot. Don't wear it in parking lots, etc., though, so not much wear.
Not sure what DIN compatibility vs. wear means.
Never had a binding tested. Shop guys I used to know claimed they'd test bindings by seeing if they could knock the boot out with a hammer (actually saw a pretty high-tech machine testing bindings at Kmart yesterday, though).

In spite of all that, I rarely have any pre-releases. My Rossi race bindings pre-released on me once in three years, and only released about three other times, total--maybe 60-70 days on those things in that period (I run 'em on 9 heel and toe, probably one lower than my other bindings). Same for the Sallys and Tyrolias I use. If you take care of your equipment (no uncovered ski racks, no extra walking in boots), I don't think you need to worry too much. Who knows.

[powdog]

I have had good results with top-end (not race) Salomon bindings for 20 years -they seem to release when they should. Although Tyrolia has made its bindings are made in shop or on-site (no outside vendors), few Western ski shops will work on them or mount them.

In the steeps or in two feet of powder, I put my toe-pieces one DIN higher than the heels, but usually I set both heel and toe pieces at the same DIN. But I crank my bindings up to when it's three-plus feet of pow to at least two DIN higher, because it's a hassle putting powder cords on my skis.

About 90 percent of the time I fall forward or sideways - the only time I fall backwards is when I'm goofing off or in the lift line.

I'm not that convinced about the Line Pivogy binding - it seems very hard to carve or put decent pressure on the toepiece, but I'm not a binding nerd.

[1080Rider]

All my equipment is properly adjusted and in good working order, jong.

Says the guy w/ 20 posts to the guy w/ 1,800???

[marshalolson]

a suggestion for setting bindings:

1. make sure they are set properly w/ forward pressure and toe height etc..

2. set the DIN slightly below what you think you should need at the beginning of the season (ie i am usually around 12-13, so i start at 11 on new bindings)

3. turn up the DIN as needed on the first run or two of riding - make hard turns, haul ass, and find something to jump off of.

4. this is not a set and forget. if you prerelease through-out the season, tighten it up a bit.

edit:

the biggest differance in binding makers is weighting retention and release. the amount of elasticity (motion before release) governs prerelease. looks have the most elastic heel peice, salomons the most elastic toes, thus most rippers prefer those bindings cause they will tend to stay in and recover.
race bindings obviously value retention even more than retail bindings.

[MeatPuppet]

I thought people should know shit like this...most commercial bindings have had an upward releasing toe peice since the mid 90's, 10 years now. Pretty common thing. Interesting thing is that most race stock binders do not, for reasons discussed above. Question:

So, do you think that good skiers really need an upward releasing toe piece? What the heck is a "backwards twisting fall" anyway?? Do you suddenly become a f'ing retard and fall over backwards while turning? Seriously. When I "fall", it's usually in a pretty controlled situation where a minor f'up puts me on the ground before I can recover, but I'm almost always in control on the way down. Experience tells me how to go down in ways that will minimise injury. My skis never, ever, come off when I "fall", because they would pre-release too often otherwise. "Crashing", well I guess that's a whole nother bag, since all sorts of violent forces will take a ski off some how. I'm about 180 lb, and ski Salomon race stock binders (3 pair) and 997 drivers (2 pair), set around 12 to 14 din, depending.

..........
Highway Star

[MeatPuppet]

I take issue with this. My recommended DIN is an 8. Skiing agressively at a normal ski area, I can pre-release at least once a run at a DIN of 8.......how does that do me any good? I can get by at din of 10, but still blow out every few runs. Ususally at ski demo I can get a DIN of 11 max, and do ok with that, blowing out a couple times day. I run my powder/rock/tree skis at 11, since I've found I want them to release pretty easy, and I suck it up and deal with the occasional prerelease. My regular skiing din these days is a 13 DIN on properly adjusted salomons, except the toes are adjusted for zero vertical play. I want these skis to never pre-release, and they never have. I have some big speed skis, and I rock those at 14.

The DIN of 8 is pretty useless. A DIN of 12 is probably my sweet spot, the perfect mix of retention and release - still pretty easy to release out of in a crash, but hard to prerelase out of. I go to 13 because I favor retention over release, but run my tree skis at 11 since I want to come out of those easier when I get hung up.

So, maybe that's a good rule of thumb.....if you're a young strong agressive expert, take your recommended level III din, and just add 50% to it.......

. Then, add or subtract based on your preferences for release/retention.

Oh, and this is all on properly adjusted salomon race stock or 997 drivers. Yes, I ski plenty balanced.

..........
Highway Star

[MeatPuppet]

Somewhat plauseable. Sounds more like bad instincts to me though. If turning using your knee/pivoting your foot while in the back seat is part of your skier "instincts", I would recommend working on changing that some how, since that instinct is going blow your knee. There's two other better ways to handle that above situation. One is to not be a pussy and get yourself back in control before you make your next move. To me, taking a split second to get back on top of things and gaining a little more speed, but then being in total control and being able to steer or check speed, is better than making some half assed move which *might* get you out of trouble, or might not. What if you don't have time to get back in control? That should never happen - you should always leave a little bit on the table, so you can have that split second to get out of trouble if you need it. The other way I guess is to bail out in a controlled manner, falling, or some sort of safety speed check.

Highway Star