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Thread: Save the Fraser River (CO)

  1. #26
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    Thanks for that Neck. I know very little about ag and that was my basic question, how can ag be more efficient. I don't except society to give up there standard of living for the environment. What I find frustrating is the because we are currently so inefficient and wastefull, is seems like there are some easy gains to be made with not much effort both in the waterworld and elsewhere.

  2. #27
    Hugh Conway Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep View Post
    Hugh, I just don't see how this must be. There's enough water. There's a lot of water being used wastefully through inefficient methods. There's a lot of water that goes into crops that, in times of low commodity prices, produce product that doesn't fetch a profit sufficient to justify pouring water on the ground. I think there's plenty of water to go around IF the vested interest group that controls and uses the disproportionate bulk of the West's water was more efficient about it and could be counted on to always make rational economic decisions. But, they don't and they won't. We are talking about a group that doesn't even want to sell water rights. In the West, water is power and people don't just give up power, mon frere. That's the real problem. That's why I alluded to Stalin's murder of the kulaks. This is as much a matter of power as it is droughts, river levels, conservation, rational economic use of a resource, etc. Fights over power....now you are confronting the human condition itself and rationality takes a back seat to greed and fear.
    if you are "rationally" valuing resources trout finish DFL. Always have, always will, unless you place an irrationally high value on them. The direct "fishing industry revenue" in Colorado is $460 million, that's nothing. Rationally there's no need to recreate New Jersey or whatever east coast suburban paradise everyones immigrating from for all the Jerseyites moving to Denver, they could just stay in fucking Jersey. So, of course it's about power. And money. It's not the 60s anymore, nobody wants to pretend there's any higher purpose or morality to this, it's just one group of users tantrums vs. another group of users tantrums like every other conflict in the west these days. As for selling water rights. If you think Denver's going to grow and those will only become more valuable in the future why would you sell now?

  3. #28
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    [QUOTE=Hugh Conway;4212507] it's just one group of users tantrums vs. another group of users tantrums like every other conflict in the west these days. QUOTE]

    Excepting that, in this case, the vested interest group uses 90% of the resource in question. 90% of water consumption in Colorado is Ag; that's why cities like Denver have to dewater rivers to meet domestic consumption. In return, Ag gives back to Colorado 1% of its state GDP and 2% of its jobs. Look it up. That's what you are trying to rationalize. I know you're just here to rip on what the rest of us have to say but...C'mon man...look at the numbers. I am curious though...what's your home river and how many fishing days a year? Do you live in a farming community? Do you know what the efficiency rates are for flood irrigation vs center pivot? Are you or have you been an active member of a river conservation group?

  4. #29
    Hugh Conway Guest
    So, 1% of GDP? 2.5 billion? that's 6x fishing.

    I'm not interested in belonging to the clique neckdeep, that should be clear by now.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    So, 1% of GDP? 2.5 billion? that's 6x fishing.

    I'm not interested in belonging to the clique neckdeep, that should be clear by now.
    Yeah, either that or basic math eludes you. Dude, if you want to define yourself as a misanthrope, be my guest. At some point, however, misanthropy becomes a thin disguise. If you want to be Jonathan Swift...then be a worthy successor to his legacy.


    Or just use your head. Tourism/recreation in Colorado (which is where you'd lump in sport fishing) contributes around 5% state GDP and a whopping 11% of jobs. That's a lot more than Ag, a hell of a lot more. To play Devil's Advocate, first, you need to be taken seriously.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 03-19-2014 at 12:01 PM.

  6. #31
    Hugh Conway Guest
    Not being down with whatever's the latest "save" movement on this board who's primary purpose is to make a bunch of urban yuppies feel better about themselves, industry bros to pat themselves on the back, and the usual non-profit schysters to get their cut with a side purpose of - PERHAPS - actually saving something that may or not have been worth it in the first place is totally that neckdeep. You got it. OOps, I just summarized this thread.

    If you are going to bust by balls for basic math, break out the numbers, not just polysyllabic words. All depends on what numbers but famring/ranching $8-10 billion. So, way more than fishing. I'm not rationalizing anything - pointing out that you want a culture war, which you seem to admit, and that there's much power and the other side already views it as one. not particularly healthy all around.

    besides, the satire is a bunch of people in the west who fanatically hate their conception of California, step by step doing exactly what California did. Turning the rural areas of the state into recreational playgrounds for urbanites, chain restrictions, blah de fucking blah. It's great to watch, better satire than Swift.

  7. #32
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    [QUOTE=Hugh Conway;4212602]
    If you are going to bust by balls for basic math, break out the numbers, not just polysyllabic words. All depends on what numbers but famring/ranching $8-10 billion. So, way more than fishing. I'm not rationalizing anything - pointing out that you want a culture war, which you seem to admit, and that there's much power and the other side already views it as one. not particularly healthy all around.

    QUOTE]

    I did give you GPD numbers. Do I have to spoon feed it to you with cites or can you do some of your own homework? Actually, I don't think you'd spend precious trollin' time reading anything I cited. I still can't see why you think an industry contributing on average 1% of Colorado's GDP deserves to use 90% of a very valuable resource. Since you just repeatedly blather right on past this basic fact, it's just pointless to continue this. Congrats, I consider myself trolled, sorry I gave you the benefit of doubt. What's the matter, climate change thread slow today? You and I joined this board a year apart; How the fuck did you find the time to rack up 18,000 more posts than me? Physician, heal thyself.

    Underoos, my apologies...and, for the record, I hooked my first ever rocky mountain trout in the Fraser River. Hiked up the RR track into the canyon and hooked a lunker that leapt big and promptly took me around a rock. Almost 20 years ago but memorable enough. Using grasshoppers caught next to the tracks, just like "Big Two-Hearted River". Yep, bait, I used to fish bait, once upon a time.
    Last edited by neckdeep; 03-19-2014 at 12:52 PM.

  8. #33
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    I still want to save the Fraser river more then I care to eat Palisade peaches. Can't wait for my next trip up to fish it. Goggle lets find some time to hit it pre-runoff, Roo...call the mother-in-law....you are gonna need some fishing time!
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  9. #34
    Hugh Conway Guest
    [QUOTE=neckdeep;4212619]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    If you are going to bust by balls for basic math, break out the numbers, not just polysyllabic words. All depends on what numbers but famring/ranching $8-10 billion. So, way more than fishing. I'm not rationalizing anything - pointing out that you want a culture war, which you seem to admit, and that there's much power and the other side already views it as one. not particularly healthy all around.

    QUOTE]

    I did give you GPD numbers. Do I have to spoon feed it to you with cites or can you do some of your own homework?
    If you are going to edit them into your post after I posted, at least be fucking honest, but that's not what your posturing is about is it?

    gretch - take it to fucking facebook, where you can blow dudes who post shitty pictures of cares and all of the vain posturing you seem to like.

  10. #35
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    Pay attention Gretch, palisade peaches help the Fraser. West Slope, downstream and such.

    Like I said, hot button issue.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    gretch - take it to fucking facebook, where you can blow dudes who post shitty pictures of cares and all of the vain posturing you seem to like.
    What does a shitty picture of a cares look like?
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  12. #37
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    There's a lot of water that goes into crops that, in times of low commodity prices, produce product that doesn't fetch a profit sufficient to justify pouring water on the ground.
    Ha. Just read an article today where asparagus growers in the delta region of California are leaving it in the ground because a glut of Mexican asparagus is making the the price so low it doesn't pay to harvest it. Ya, that was a smart use of water.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by neckdeep View Post
    Underoos, my apologies...
    Why? The bait fishing thing? Big deal. I fish bait sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by gretch6364 View Post
    Roo...call the mother-in-law....you are gonna need some fishing time!
    She's here. Floating day after tomorrow.




    Fungible. Had to look that one up.

  14. #39
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    Nice. Interested in the Lower Blue or Pumphouse next Saturday? I have 1 open seat and am doing a quickish day. Gotta be back in Denver by 7pm for a concert.
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  15. #40
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    Too early to say. Got a lot of irons in the fire right now. Check with me later, or fill the seat and I'll bring my boat.

  16. #41
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    Roo, any further understanding of your availability? Looks like we are gonna run Pumphouse with two boats. Right now we have 4 people, and I have a seat open in mine. Goggle, if Roo is out, would you wanna tag along? I would offer the other seat as well, but it isn't my boat and he might have someone already. Still waiting for more info.
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  17. #42
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    Dude, I'm all over the fucking place right now. I can't commit to anything. I'm jobless at the moment, which means I have time but I shouldn't really be out bumbling around on a river (which is what I've been doing). There's also the new baby, so...

    You should probably count me out.

  18. #43
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    Okay. You floated me down the river, so if you do want to come, I will pick you up and supply the beer, food, and weed. If you can't, I get it.

    The wife just bought prenatal vitamins...I can see the train coming down the tracks!
    "We had nice 3 days in your autonomous mountain realm last weekend." - Tom from Austria (the Rax ski guy)

  19. #44
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    Gretch, I save float fishing The Upper until there is nothing else to do. It BC ski, kayak and desert season for me. I'll let you know bout August.

    Roos - hopefully voluntary not working. You done forever up there or just standard seasonal BS? If your looking for work, let me know what type of things you want to do. I guessing DTR guiding won't be happening for a while.

  20. #45
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    Foggy, I'll send you a PM here in a moment.

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