They call it Baseball...

[DaveTV]

DaveTV - once more thing - it is without a doubt the most true statement in the world to say that St. Louis fans are widely regarded as the most knowledgeable baseball fans in the country.

And how does one measure this? And East-coast elitist? What does heartland or coast have to do with anything? I bet people here talk baseball all year more than there. and we were in SECOND PLACE behind NY all year. I saw no one here diss STL or their fans, but you are dissing Red Sox fans as some sort of bandwagon-jumpers. When a cold, rainy night game in April against Tampa Bay is SOLD OUT that shows something, BTW...
EDIT: Enough smack - let the games bgin, the rest of the mags are probably sick of this discussion..I just hope we jump out to a big first-quarter lead..

[The AD]

This is a great matchup. The dominant offensive teams in each League squaring off. Boston led the AL in runs, BA, SLG and OBP. St. Louis led the NL in runs, BA and SLG.

Neither team is exactly a slouch in pitching, but I don't think the old maxim "good pitching beats good hitting" holds true in today's game.

[basom]

did my scouting:


starting pitching:advantage sox
bullpen: advantage sox
defense: advantage sox, but close and if cards take advantage of key weakness they could tip the scales
hitting: draw
managing: advantage cards
tougher oposing ballpark/fans: advantage sox

i really thought i would have found more advantage cards in my comparisons, but i didn't. its hard to compare numbers between leauges, and the sox have a worse interleauge record than the cards, so you could factor that in. The sox don't blow the cards away in anything but on paper i think the sox have a better than good chance at this. In my heart i know its not going to be easy. every game will be a battle. i also disagree with the ad on the 'good pitching and defense wins in october' see the florida marlins last year, and the angels the year before.

here we go wakefield, here we go. clap clap. here we go wakefield, here we go.

[Karl Stall]

And how does one measure this? And East-coast elitist? What does heartland or coast have to do with anything? I bet people here talk baseball all year more than there. and we were in SECOND PLACE behind NY all year. I saw no one here diss STL or their fans, but you are dissing Red Sox fans as some sort of bandwagon-jumpers. When a cold, rainy night game in April against Tampa Bay is SOLD OUT that shows something, BTW...
EDIT: Enough smack - let the games bgin, the rest of the mags are probably sick of this discussion..I just hope we jump out to a big first-quarter lead..

no smack-talking intended. just advocating for Cardinal Nation. But, your statement that people there talk baseball there more than here is dead wrong. Again, ask Peter Gammons, a Red Sox fan himself. Maybe you've never been here, but baseball is all we have...no ocean, no basketball, just one university, no heritage on par with the great history of boston, just Fucking baseball...understand.

I like the Red Sox, have always rooted for them, and always will, except for this week. I do not get involved with flame wars, but some good-natured ribbing is all good.

MaYBE you'll learn a bit more about baseball in St. Louis over the next several days.

[Karl Stall]

did my scouting:

defense: advantage sox, but close and if cards take advantage of key weakness they could tip the scales

What the fuck are you talking about - we have like a combined 17 gold gloves on our team. Renteria, Rolen, Walker, Matheny, EDMONDS.

Your pitching is way better and might spell the end for our glorious season, but that's why they play the games, right?

[DaveTV]

Maybe you've never been here, but baseball is all we have...

I drove thru there 1 hour before game 6 last week- I am aware that baseball is big there (what about the Ramses??) - we are hardly uninformed bandwagon-jumpers however... Why so sensitive, no one attacked the Cards or their fans...? They are well-respected thruout the country!

[basom]

Your pitching is way better and might spell the end for our glorious season, but that's why they play the games, right?

obviously.

theory is better pitching factors into your defense rating. and how the defense has been playing in the last two series. again, its a really hard thing to compare, and i obviously have only seen a handfull of cards games, so call horseshit if you will. we have a few pretty good fielders too my friend. Tito has a quiver of guys sitting who really compliment the team for defensive (and ofensive) situational stuff in the latter innings. but the defense is the closest thing besides depth of hitting, as i mentioned. and if the cards scheme to play the sox's weekness well, and take advantage of them they get the nod in that catagory, as i tried to note in my earlier post.

also, anyone in the media proclaiming one town the "best sports town" or one fan base the "bestes fans ever" is silly. even peter gammons is silly when he does it. it has no bering on anything, he is trying to sell something, and you are the customer. i admit he's good at it.

[Karl Stall]

I drove thru there 1 hour before game 6 last week- I am aware that baseball is big there (what about the Ramses??) - we are hardly uninformed bandwagon-jumpers however... Why so sensitive, no one attacked the Cards or their fans...? They are well-respected thruout the country!

I never once referred to Boston fans as bandwagon jumpers - I don't think that at all. I have full-on respect for Red Sox fans, and I don't mean to come off as overly sensitive. If they lose tonight, however, I might get a bit sensitive.

It's all good.

[shamrockpow]

Base: you're way off on the defense. Maybe if we were playing the whole series under American Leage rules you could stretch it and call the defense even, but we're not. With Ortiz playing 3 full games at 1B (Tito will only pull him if it's a huge blowout in our favor) that is a major strike against our defense. Ortiz will be playing first when Derek Lowe is pitching as well which can't be a good thing.

My breakdowns would look like this:
Starters: advantage Sox, but Woody Williams has been a big-game pitcher the last couple of years and Matt Morris is talented enough to turn it on. Where the Sox should get a boost is Pedro pitching on the extra day rest (something like 2.90 ERA vs. 4.77 ERA on 4 days). Look for Suppan to get absolutely rocked in game 4 which could help DLowe's confidence if he can hold the Cards down early.

Bullpen: Sox, but not by much. Izzy has been pretty solid and Ray King will be the best lefty Damon/Ortiz have faced in a month.

Defense: Cardinals, this shouldn't even be a question. Their worst fielders (Pujols and Womack) equal our guys at those positions (ignoring Ortiz). Sanders and Manny cancel out, and then they have gold glovers at every other position (although Mueller, Tek, and Cabrera ain't slouches)

Lineup: Cardinals have a tiny edge. Womack and Renteria are gonna put a lot of pressure on the Sox defense and that could be crucial in St. Louis. Damon/Bellhorn are better hitters, but they won't cause as many issues for the Cards pitching. Manny/Ortiz are about equal to Pujols/Edmonds, but Rolen and Walker are better protection than Trot and Tek. The Sox big advantage is at the bottom of the order: Mueller, Millar and Cabrera should be able to put some solid ABs together, while Sanders/Matheny/Mabry (or Cedeno) can all be pitched to.

Bench/managing/intangibles: Even. Tito isn't the greatest manager by any measure and he's nuts if he doesn't start Mirabelli tonight, but he's got the team believing in him. Larussa has been overrated for years. The Sox bench gets a check, but St. Louis just seems like one of those teams that works well together (and they don't have Dale Sveum coaching third base).

PS: couldn't get it together to sleep out for tickets last night, hopefully my dad has a line on a seat for me sunday (he's in already), but I'll be at Brother Jimmy's in Harvard for the game tonight...

LETS GET IT ON!

[Karl Stall]

I thought you guys would find the following amusing (from the StL Post-Dispatch):

"I'm trying to understand how it is that the Red Sox are being portrayed as a scrappy, hustling, ragamuffin, underdog, against-all-odds team when in fact they've won more than 100 games this season, and have been bankrolled for a player payroll of $128 million. These are not the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, OK? Boston is hardly the Little Engine That Could.

Just because the Red Sox grew some whiskers, wear baggy uniform pants and have a few colorful personalities, we're supposed to believe that they're the baseball equivalent of the basketball movie, "Hoosiers?" Sorry, no sale."

[Karl Stall]

My Sentiments exactly: (again below from Bernie Miklasz of the post):

"And now we present our first official second-guess of La Russa. He's made all the right moves in this postseason, but I'm puzzled as to why he refuses to give Haren a starting assignment. Haren was easily the Cardinals' most effective pitcher on Saturday night; he took control of a runaway game and held the Red Sox in place with 3 2/3 innings of poised relief. Haren throws a terrific split-fingered fastball that's equally nasty to hitters on both sides of the plate.

And Haren's impressive outing only reinforced his presence as someone who could make a difference. It's not as if La Russa and pitching coach Dave Duncan are teeming with options. Jeff Suppan and Williams have earned their places in the postseason rotation. But the other two starters, Jason Marquis and Matt Morris, have combined for a 5.91 ERA this postseason. In 24 innings they've allowed 26 hits, including eight homers, and have walked 16. Right now, Haren has the fresher arm and superior stuff. And at Fenway, he proved he wouldn't be rattled by the setting. "

[DaveTV]

I thought you guys would find the following amusing (from the StL Post-Dispatch):

"I'm trying to understand how it is that the Red Sox are being portrayed as a scrappy, hustling, ragamuffin, underdog, against-all-odds team when in fact they've won more than 100 games this season, and have been bankrolled for a player payroll of $128 million. These are not the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, OK? Boston is hardly the Little Engine That Could.

Just because the Red Sox grew some whiskers, wear baggy uniform pants and have a few colorful personalities, we're supposed to believe that they're the baseball equivalent of the basketball movie, "Hoosiers?" Sorry, no sale."

They did not win 100 games this year, and whatever FOX is portraying them as, it's for their ratings..We know what they are.. And they ARE scrappy and hustling with an all-for-one TEAM mentality. Why the animosity, would you rather be playing the Yankees?

[Karl Stall]

Dave,

Are you high? What about me putting up a sportswriter quote can be construed as animosity? I just thought it was funny. Jesus - mr. sensitive. You must be used to the dickhead Yankees fans. No, I would rather play the Sox, but I'd also rather have some starting fucking pitching.

Also, 8 plus however many they won during reg. season must equal 100 or more.

[DaveTV]

The facial hair is a slap at the Yankees. Meester Steinbrenner does not allow facial hair or long hair(Ask Esteban Louiza, who had to shave his longtime beard before joining the empire.) And I AM high.. And whatever our payroll is, we just dope-slapped the team with a payroll 1/3 higher than OURS. And we are quite giddy about it.

2004 MLB Payrolls
Team Payroll
N.Y. Yankees $182,835,513
Boston 125,208,542
Anaheim 101,084,667
New York Mets 100,629,303
Philadelphia 93,219,167
Chicago Cubs 91,101,667
Los Angeles 89,694,342
Atlanta 88,507,788
San Francisco 82,019,167
Seattle 81,543,833
St. Louis 75,633,517
Houston 74,666,303
Arizona 70,204,984
Ch. White Sox 65,212,500
Colorado 64,590,403
Oakland 59,825,167
Texas 54,825,973
San Diego 54,639,503
Minnesota 53,585,000
Baltimore 51,212,653
Toronto 50,017,000
Kansas City 47,609,000
Detroit 46,353,554
Montreal 43,197,500
Cincinnati 43,067,858
Florida 42,118,042
Cleveland 34,569,300
Pittsburgh 32,227,929
Tampa Bay 29,506,667
Milwaukee 27,518,500

[Karl Stall]

I AM high..

[/i]

Well, O.K. then. I might have to join you.

[BigJay]

I tried to stay out of this thread, but I just had to throw out my opinion about this. I see the redsox with an advantage in starting pitching, relief pitching, and closer. And in todays game, good pitching still beats good hitting. Why do you think Maddux has 300 wins in his career. He is a good pitcher. If any pitcher is bring his best stuff with good control any offense is going to have a hard time to put runs on the board. Right now all the Sox pitchers are bringing good stuff.

Right now the Redsox have so much momentum they will be hard to stop. When you get 5,6,7 guys in a lineup who are all hitting well at the same time you will score a lot of runs and get clutch hits. Right now the Cards pitching is struggling, the Sox pitching has never been better, and the Sox bats are alive. We got Pedro on the hill Tuesday working with a fresh bullpen. Ortiz is scary at first but hopefully Francona will use him just like Milar. Hitting wins games, defense wins championships.