Mr. Bush's America - any SLC local scoop on this?

[meatdrink9]

So much for "serve and protect," then. Your local cops are doing a bang-up job!

What happens when an innocent bystander catches a cap in the head?

What about the druggie that B&E's and steals shit from people's homes to support his habit?

Hookers don't limit themselves to adults, they're perfectly happy to take money from young boys too.

They're still here doing their job. Some of their job get's done for them, but they're here too. I've only had to call them once but they got there fast and took care of business. I've seen them taking down people on numerous occasions. It wasn't a criticism of them, just a term that could summarize some of the area's problems. That's why I didn't mind the dude this thread is about going to the clink.

As for the rest of that shit. I agree with you. Again, that's why I said I had no sympathy for the guy going to jail.

[gonzo]

Yes. And now the Republican majority is attempting to pass (or has passed) a bill prohibiting the SC from ruling on the pledge of allegiance case. If that happens, I'm sure that will be the first foot in the door of a whole slew of SC restrictions that would effectively remove some of the checks and balances in the system.

don't worry - this won't ever happen. they basically would be trying to amend the constitution. the SC will strike it down unanimously if it passes.

Arnold Pants: A big part of the reason Breyer is such a fan is because he helped write them when he was a legislative staffer.

[Woodsy]

UPDATE:

Sentence 'unjust,' judge says
Even the judge is unhappy as he gives a drug dealer 55 years
By Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune

A federal judge on Tuesday reluctantly sentenced a Utah music producer to a mandatory 55 years in prison, then urged President Bush to commute the term to a more just punishment.
U.S. District Judge Paul Cassell said federal minimum mandatory sentencing laws left him no choice but to impose what he called an "unjust and cruel and even irrational" prison term on Weldon Angelos, 25.
Angelos will be 80 years old before he is freed. He did not speak at the sentencing.
The 55-year term was mandated by Angelos' three gun-possession convictions. For 13 other drug and money laundering counts, Cassell imposed one additional day behind bars.
Speaking to a courtroom packed with Angelos' family and friends, Cassell called on the president to intervene and said he recommended a sentence of no more than 18 years. He also urged Congress to modify the mandatory minimum law "so that its harsh provisions for 25-year multiple sentences apply only to true recidivist drug offenders."
Calling the case the most

RELATED:
Click here for the full text of the ruling.

difficult he has faced in his 2 1/2 years on the bench, Cassell said in a 67-page ruling that he could find no basis to declare minimum mandatories unconstitutional.
"While the sentence appears to be cruel, unjust and irrational, in our system of separated powers Congress makes the final decision as to appropriate criminal penalties," the judge wrote.
The U.S. Attorney's Office for Utah said the sentence is fair and will deter others.
"This sends the message that people who engage in armed drug dealing are going to face very serious consequences," assistant U.S. attorney Robert Lund said after the sentencing.
He added that there is "no chance at all" the president will reduce Angelos' sentence.
Defense attorney Jerome Mooney said he will appeal Cassell's ruling - a denial of Mooney's request to declare minimum mandatory sentences unconstitutional - to the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.
The debate over minimum mandatory sentences drew national attention to Angelos' case. A group of 29 former federal judges and prosecutors filed a friend-of-the-court brief asking Cassell to reject the mandatory term for Angelos.
They argued the punishment violates the Constitution by taking sentencing authority away from judges and essentially giving it to prosecutors, who wield tremendous power to decide which charges to bring.
At a news conference held on the steps of the federal courthouse in Salt Lake City by Families Against Minimum Mandatories (FAMM), Mooney contended congressional representatives are more interested in winning re-election than in justice.
"Congress should be ashamed of themselves for letting an injustice like this to occur," he said. "It's time for them to be brave and say, 'We've gone too far.' ''
FAMM spokeswoman Monica Pratt said Angelos' sons, ages 6 and 5, will suffer the harshest punishment - life without their father.
Defense witnesses at the trial testified that Angelos, founder of Extravagant Records, which produces rap and hip hop, earned the money he was accused of laundering legitimately. The music producer has indicated that the gun was only for his own protection.
But the federal jury convicted Angelos last December of 16 counts of drug trafficking, weapons possession and money laundering.
Federal law required him to be sentenced to at least 55 years in prison for three convictions of possessing a firearm in furtherance of a drug trafficking crime.
Angelos had a clean record before his conviction except for a minor nonviolent juvenile offense, according to the friend-of-the-court brief. It notes he originally was charged with only one count of possession of a firearm in furtherance of drug trafficking.
But after he refused a plea deal with a 16-year sentence, prosecutors asked a grand jury to return an indictment with additional charges.
Cassell in February asked attorneys in the case to submit briefs exploring the constitutionality of the stiff term mandated for Angelos. He pointed out then, and at Tuesday's sentencing, that aircraft hijackers, child rapists and murderers serve shorter mandatory terms for their crimes.
The judge also surveyed jurors in the case, who heard how Angelos sold marijuana from his Salt Lake City apartment - where he also kept a gun, sometimes strapped to his ankle - and the nine who responded favored a sentence of 15 to 18 years.
Lund said the long sentences for mixing guns and drug sales makes potential offenders think twice about carrying a weapon. In addition, the prosecutor said that if defendants commit the violent crimes listed by Cassell while carrying a firearm, they also would spend a long mandatory term behind bars.
Margaret Plane, staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Utah, said the Angelos case shows how minimum mandatory sentences can be unjust.
"They are applied without regard to the offense type and without regard to the offender," she said.
pmanson@sltrib.com
What's Next:

* Weldon Angelos' attorney will appeal Judge Paul Cassell's ruling to the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.
* Cassell ordered copies of his decision, including his recommendation that President Bush commute the sentence to a shorter term, forwarded to the Office of Pardon Attorney and to the chairs and ranking members of the House and Senate Judiciary committees.
* Families Against Minimum Mandatories will continue lobbying Congress to change laws requiring mandatory minimum sentences.

aeiou and sometimes y

[1080Rider]

Lund said the long sentences for mixing guns and drug sales makes potential offenders think twice about carrying a weapon. In addition, the prosecutor said that if defendants commit the violent crimes listed by Cassell while carrying a firearm, they also would spend a long mandatory term behind bars.
^
From D-day's post above.
This is the point. The guys sentence sounds long but its due to the weapon's enhancement as well as being convicted of several charges (I assume, I don't know what all he was convicted of). That's the way it works. You do crime A and you get X time. If you have a gun when doing A crime then you get X+ time. If you commit A+B crimes you get X+Y time. I'm glad the idiot is off the streets.

I have a feeling most people here are pissed because "he was only selling weed." Until marijuana is legal to possess/sell you will go to jail for doing either of these. Pretty simple, stay away from weed (drugs in general), stay out of jail.

[natty dread]

I have a feeling most people here are pissed because "he was only selling weed." Until marijuana is legal to possess/sell you will go to jail for doing either of these. Pretty simple, stay away from weed (drugs in general), stay out of jail.

In the 60's, you could have said to black people: "Just stay away from the front of the bus/whites only areas, stay out of jail."

In the 90's, you could have said to gay people in places like Texas: "Just don't engage in 'sodomy' (even in the privacy of your home), stay out of jail."


Not the best analogies, I know, because I am talking about civil rights versus the right to sell/take drugs, but just because a law is a law, doesn't make it just, that is why I am pissed--that our nation's drug laws are unjust, that we have a drug czar like Walters spreading myths, that our cops waste their time, risk their lives (we lost a cop in Portland over a fucking pot bust), and waste our tax dollars busting potheads. Do you think our drug laws are just? Do care about justice? Or are the laws as written all that matter?

Rah rah "law and order," let's put the potheads, meth addicts, and heroin users in jail. Fucking brilliant strategy. It's working so well, thank god we're winning the war on drugs.

[1080Rider]

Allright natty, give me a list of ways drugs contribute to society. (should be a pretty short list)

PS- don't lecture me on justice. I sit here everyday trying to put assholes in jail who beat their wives. You know what really happens? The wives refuse to testify and the guy gets off. If you're wondering about "justice" in the "legal system" then you're looking in the wrong place.

[Buster Highmen]

1080, if I thought I could make a point with you, I'd try.

I appreciate the position you're in dealing with the dirtbags of society, seeing how fucked up stuff is and how innocent people are victimized. I honor your frustration and your efforts.

I'll leave it that we disagree.

Go home to your family and love your kids and wife and think some relaxing thoughts.

[PlayHarder]

Allright natty, give me a list of ways drugs contribute to society. (should be a pretty short list)

PS- don't lecture me on justice. I sit here everyday trying to put assholes in jail who beat their wives. You know what really happens? The wives refuse to testify and the guy gets off. If you're wondering about "justice" in the "legal system" then you're looking in the wrong place.

Maybe if the system spent less time and money busting potheads, there'd be resources available to properly prosecute the people who deserve it.
Oh well, I guess its better to prescribe a million and one different chemicals to alter peoples moods than just let them smoke a fatty once in a while. For reference 1080, you may want to check on medicinal uses of marijuana.
For the topic, I don't see a problem with throwing the book at someone that thinks they need to pack a gun while selling - whether it's pot, coke, meth or whatever.

[shmerham]

This sounds like a "3 strikes you're out" situation. Wasn't that a Clinton thing?

That kinda sucks that his 3 offenses were all before being convicted of the first, but I mean, you get bagged once, you're supposed to learn, aren't you?

[1080Rider]

I guess my point is that if this guy was selling cocain to little kids, everyone on this board would want to have the guy hung by his balls, but since he was "only selling pot" then he's getting screwed. Given the view on pot around here there's very little credibility to arguements that this guy doesn't deserve what he's getting. If you think pot should be legal realize that you're in the minority, that's why its illegal. If you want to sell/grow/smoke pot realize that a majority of the people in the country beleive you should be penalized for it.

I'm mostly making a statement about the nature of the board and trying to point out that if you think he's getting screwed, you may not be looking at the situation impartially.

PS- for the record, I don't necessarily think possession should be a crime, big drug rings w/ guns and thugs should, but I don't write the laws...

[DougW]

Its funny north of the border most don't think it should be a crimmial offence. The gov't has introduced leg. that would make possession of enough dope for 100 joints a fine offence. ( kinda like spitting or chewing gum in Singapore)

But the police are saying " of course we don't want anybody to get a crimminal record for a couple of joints and we never enforce the law now so you don't need to change it" Seems a bit thin to me.

[KevinDineen]

Don't blame Bush. We had a prez for 8 years before him who was an admitted pot smoker and, unfortunately, a little more obsessed with getting his bone smoked than stopping this shit.

The "Clinton got a blow job" excuse is over. Please. Is that really the reason why our country is fucked? The current president is a documented Cocaine user, and the biggest republican talk show host is a convicted pill popper. Newsflash, politicians are hypocrates. This has nothing to do with anyone getting their rocks off, aside from the metophoric ass-fucking we are getting at the hands of the justice department, regardless of which party is in the white house. Janet Reno was as much of a tyrant as Asscroft.

[natty dread]

Allright natty, give me a list of ways drugs contribute to society. (should be a pretty short list)

Did you read what I posted? This does not address the point I am making at all, totally irrelevant. I posted nothing about drugs (or alcohol or tobacco) being a good thing. If you want to talk about the medicinal benefits of some drugs, I would welcome that discussion, as would many cancer/AIDS patients in some of the more enlightened states in America.

PS- don't lecture me on justice. I sit here everyday trying to put assholes in jail who beat their wives. You know what really happens? The wives refuse to testify and the guy gets off. If you're wondering about "justice" in the "legal system" then you're looking in the wrong place.

Just because the legal system is fucked and people like OJ and asshole wife beaters get of--after people like you work your asses off trying to do the right thing--doesn't justify making the system more fucked/dysfunctional by penalizing potheads. Maybe you could more effectively prosecute the real wackos if so much of our legal resources weren't squandered on the "war on drugs."

1080, if I thought I could make a point with you, I'd try.

I appreciate the position you're in dealing with the dirtbags of society, seeing how fucked up stuff is and how innocent people are victimized. I honor your frustration and your efforts.

I'll leave it that we disagree.

Go home to your family and love your kids and wife and think some relaxing thoughts.

I agree with the above sentiments wholeheartedly. Despite our differences of opinion, I appreciate the honorable work you do 1080.

[Buster Highmen]

The "Clinton got a blow job" excuse is over. Please. Is that really the reason why our country is fucked? The current president is a documented Cocaine user, and the biggest republican talk show host is a convicted pill popper. Newsflash, politicians are hypocrates. This has nothing to do with anyone getting their rocks off, aside from the metophoric ass-fucking we are getting at the hands of the justice department, regardless of which party is in the white house. Janet Reno was as much of a tyrant as Asscroft.

Aw c'mon, can't we all be more devisive? I mean, everything really is black or white and either you're with me or against me. Nitwit! Boob! Feckless mal mot munger!

Politicians are doctors too?

[1080Rider]

Natty- thanks for the kind words. It can get frustrating.

I can see the point people are making regarding wasting resources for pot busts. In our town there aren't a ton of possession tickets filed. There isn't a huge amount of resources spent and really the penalties don't go to jail time until you've been caught a bunch of times. I really don't know about the felony level. I think they spend their time on meth and crack around here. I think you need to have a shitload of pot to even get to the feds. Those are the cases that take tons of man hours and take up a bunch of resources.

I guess one other point is that there is little "justice" in the justice system. It's not the perfect system. I think its a good system even though the guilty often times get off. But there is a lot that can be improved...

[Buster Highmen]

Allright natty, give me a list of ways drugs contribute to society.

Better that we miscreants should stay home buried in candy wrappers with the hoonamunchies, poking at pcs and video games rather than out drinking and driving or participating in politics, huh?

Besides, you're supposed to be headed for home by now.

[natty dread]

In the Mt. Hood national forest near my town a few months ago, they found an outdoor grow operation with a few million dollars worth of pot. It took 3 deputies a week's worth of overtime to cut the plants down so they could be removed from the forest by helicopter! This is but one small town example of the useless, pointless squandering of tax dollars for the war on drugs. I would much rather prosecutors/cops had this money to prosecute/form task forces/etc. to get the wife beaters, robbers, and rapists. But this is another subject than the topic of whether it is just for a pot dealer to get more years than a rapist...I wish you well in dealing with the frustrations of your job and I hope the small victories over the course of your career outweigh the defeats (apart from your cases involving non-violent drug offenders of course ).

[mr_gyptian]

The "Clinton got a blow job" excuse is over. Please. Is that really the reason why our country is fucked? The current president is a documented Cocaine user, and the biggest republican talk show host is a convicted pill popper. Newsflash, politicians are hypocrates. This has nothing to do with anyone getting their rocks off, aside from the metophoric ass-fucking we are getting at the hands of the justice department, regardless of which party is in the white house. Janet Reno was as much of a tyrant as Asscroft.

you are obviously getting over that alley whipping two weeks ago quite nicely.

[gramps]

Well, at least it was on the front page of the Tribune today. Seems even conservative SLC is taking notice of this miscarriage of justice. Yeah, the guy was selling pot - how much I haven't heard. Yeah he had a gun on him at times - but so does a good percentage of the population of Utah - concealed carry permits are passed out like candy here. According to the Tribune article, he had NO priors, except some minor thing when he was a juvenile. I don't see how anybody could say he deserves 55 years in prison. Absolutely outrageous. The fact the prosecutors went ahead and did this, knowing the mandatory minimums they were going to get at sentencing is stomach turning in itself. Hopefully the appeals court will have the nerve to declare this unconstitutional - I think there's precedent for overturning absurdly long sentences, on constitutional grounds right?

[KevinDineen]

If you think pot should be legal realize that you're in the minority, that's why its illegal. If you want to sell/grow/smoke pot realize that a majority of the people in the country beleive you should be penalized for it....

The majority of people in this country smoke or have smoked weed. Therefore, they believe I (we) should be penalized, but that they should not.

Here's an example of such thinking (though pertaining to pharmies, not weed):

MIAMI, Florida (Reuters) -- A legal dispute over whether prosecutors violated conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh's medical privacy during an investigation into possible misuse of prescription painkillers was sent to the Florida Supreme Court Wednesday for review.

Florida's 4th District Court of Appeals, which last month ruled that prosecutors acted legally when they seized Limbaugh's medical records during the investigation, denied motions by Limbaugh's lawyers to rehear the case, but sent it to the state Supreme Court.

Palm Beach County prosecutors are investigating whether Limbaugh went from doctor to doctor to obtain multiple prescriptions for controlled drugs, a felony known as "doctor shopping."

Limbaugh, who has not been charged with a crime, admitted an addiction to prescription painkillers last year and took time off from his popular syndicated radio show for drug rehabilitation.

Limbaugh's lawyer, Roy Black, has said there was no doctor shopping but the radio host should not have to give up his right to privacy to prove his innocence.

Police obtained a search warrant and seized records in November 2003 from three doctors and a clinic that had treated Limbaugh. Limbaugh said his constitutional right to privacy were violated because the search warrants were issued without giving him prior notice or a chance to challenge the seizure.

The appeals court said in October that a Florida law requiring prior notice applied to medical records subpoenaed in civil cases, and not to criminal investigations.

Limbaugh, one of America's most influential conservative commentators, has said the investigation was motivated by political opportunism on the part of the Democratic state attorney, Barry Kirscher.

The medical records were sealed and the investigation was been put on hold pending resolution of the appeal.

[Storm11]

Here's some sad statistics for ya...
Approx every 44 seconds, someone is arrested for a marijuana related crime in this country. Every 7 (or so) seconds, a woman is beaten by her spouse or significant other. Yet there are more arrests for marijuana related crimes than there are for violent crimes....only in the US.

[Spats]

Selling weed is one thing. Nothing scary there. But packing heat while selling (I wonder why).

I wonder why? Well, if you're selling drugs and you get ripped off, you can't exactly call the Better Business Bureau. This is true of any illegal business. Prohibition is the *cause* of drug violence, not the solution.

Remember your history: when alcohol was prohibited in the 1930s, the Mafia moved into this country to supply the continued demand, and what had been a legal business became a source of gang violence.

Prohibition has not worked for alcohol and it has never worked for any other drug. But we are dumb enough to keep trying, and will continue to suffer street crime and pay tens of billions of dollars in extra taxes until we smarten up.

[13]

Lund said the long sentences for mixing guns and drug sales makes potential offenders think twice about carrying a weapon.

From his high perch, I'm sure he's never had to stop and think about it. Drug dealers packin' heat on their way to a deal aren't gonna stop and think: "This gun is gonna get me sent up for 50 years if I've got it in my possession. Hold on now, I'mma put this bitch back in my dresser!"

Yeah, right. They're thinking about the more realistic consequences (getting robbed or whacked) vs. less realistic consequences (getting busted).

This Lund guy needs to stop tickling his colon with his nose.

As a lawyer, I'm sure you're aware of how many laws there are, each with their own little loopholes and technicalities and precedents, and I'm sure you'd be willing to admit that no lawyer or judge knows them all.

How come you guys expect us hooligans to know them all? I bet I break 20 laws a day that I'm not even aware of.

I have a feeling most people here are pissed because "he was only selling weed." Until marijuana is legal to possess/sell you will go to jail for doing either of these. Pretty simple, stay away from weed (drugs in general), stay out of jail.

While I'm not a fan of crack, glass, and skag, I don't feel that pot is harmful to our society as a whole. The evidence is "out there" -- if you look at countries where these drugs are legal or at least not criminalized, I think you'll notice that their rates of violent crime are very low, and when there is violent crime, it is usually organized crime networks instead of random, senseless violence.

I know where my bias lies, but I don't let it cloud my common sense.

I know that when you criminalize something, you are in essence creating a power structure, and there is going to be conflict, often very complex and multi-pronged. And all too often, power struggles manifest themselves in violent ways, be it drug dealers over turf, religious minorities vs. religious majorities, political ideologies, family affairs, etc. The list goes on and on and on.

[Woodsy]

more trib front page
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2464294

[mildbill.]

From his high perch, I'm sure he's never had to stop and think about it. Drug dealers packin' heat on their way to a deal aren't gonna stop and think: "This gun is gonna get me sent up for 50 years if I've got it in my possession. Hold on now, I'mma put this bitch back in my dresser!"

Yeah, right. They're thinking about the more realistic consequences (getting robbed or whacked) vs. less realistic consequences (getting busted)....

I know that when you criminalize something, you are in essence creating a power structure

yeah, and these guys are using gun violence to exploit that power structure. oh, poor them, drug dealing is dangerous, and that is the ONLY way they can make money to buy some bling for their escalade after the government subsidized their food and housing. sorry, I'm just as much for common sense drug regulation as anyone, but once you get a bunch of gangbangers packing heat running around the neighborhood trying to protect their turf, my sympathy for these hard luck dealers goes out the window. lock them up before I catch a stray.

deterrence is not the point. anti-pot legistlation is not the point. anti-gun legislation is not the point. getting people who perpetuate gun violence off the street is the point.

another edit (I will penalize myself another 500 points for political posting): Don't give me that "it's the system's fault they sell illegal drugs" horseshit. Yes, pot should be legal. That doesn't absolve anyone from killing someone over it (or, by packing heat while dealing, making that a possibility). The blame there does not lie with those that made pot illegal, even if they were wrong. Common sense has to go both ways.