Solitude Expansion...

[BobMc]

Did you really count?

You don't have to count your lift rides, just log onto the website and it keeps track for you. I looked it up to let you all know how core I am. I rock the Moon unit.

I'll see you Sunday. I'll be in a tan/gray coat, black pants, grey helmet w/4 stickers, black goggles with yellow/amber lenses, red boots, fat 179 bros w/old ass bindings, black scott poles, and a pocket full of happiness.

[skifishbum]

This space reserved for the jeans skiing, eagle springs condo owner's input
where has he been on sabatical?

[Trackhead]

Wheres Powstash gone to?

Hunting elk in the canyon to the north.

[Trackhead]

You don't have to count your lift rides, just log onto the website and it keeps track for you.

I put one of those counters on Argenta. I'm going for the record this year.

[Sol Skier]

The french are assholes. What is a Sol Skier?

I ski in the sun a lot. Why is your avatar a turd, monsieur?

[StraightChuter]

The underlying issue with ski area expansion in the Wasatch is greed (aka "Capitalism" damn it, it's the 'Merican way).

On the skiers part, you have seven ski area (eight if you count Sundance) which are either literally touching, or a stone's throw away from each other. The Wasatch gets a ton of snow and any clueless tourists can always find fresh tracks, yet that's not enough for the Yeti's and Tin's of the world who always want more, and not only that, but more served up on a silver platter in the form of a high-speed quad. The quality already exists, but it never seems to be enough.

On the Forest Service's part, it is way more profitable to lease out public land rather than leave it as open space. The Forest Service manages land the way WalMart manages toaster ovens - to make a profit. There is no profit in empty shelf space or empty land. Smokey the Bear wants you to prevent forest fires not because he cares about the trees and his animal buddies, but because a burned forest can't be leased to Weyerhauser.

On the Ski Resort and developers part, well, greed is given. It is not about skiing and never was. It is all about capturing skier days and extracting more cash from each customer. In ski industry lingo this is known as "increasing the daily spend." Welcome to Utah, now buy some one-ounce cocktails.

All of this is just a fact of life in a Capitalist society, but the troubling part about ski area expansion is when it takes place at the expense of public land and public access. The land that the Forest Service leases to ski areas is about as public as Disneyland - everyone is welcome, just bring your credit cards and obey the rules.

[skifishbum]

The underlying issue with ski area expansion in the Wasatch is greed (aka "Capitalism" damn it, it's the 'Merican way).

On the skiers part, you have seven ski area (eight if you count Sundance) which are either literally touching, or a stone's throw away from each other. The Wasatch gets a ton of snow and any clueless tourists can always find fresh tracks, yet that's not enough for the Yeti's and Tin's of the world who always want more, and not only that, but more served up on a silver platter in the form of a high-speed quad. The quality already exists, but it never seems to be enough.

On the Forest Service's part, it is way more profitable to lease out public land rather than leave it as open space. The Forest Service manages land the way WalMart manages toaster ovens - to make a profit. There is no profit in empty shelf space or empty land. Smokey the Bear wants you to prevent forest fires not because he cares about the trees and his animal buddies, but because a burned forest can't be leased to Weyerhauser.

On the Ski Resort and developers part, well, greed is given. It is not about skiing and never was. It is all about capturing skier days and extracting more cash from each customer. In ski industry lingo this is known as "increasing the daily spend." Welcome to Utah, now buy some one-ounce cocktails.

All of this is just a fact of life in a Capitalist society, but the troubling part about ski area expansion is when it takes place at the expense of public land and public access. The land that the Forest Service leases to ski areas is about as public as Disneyland - everyone is welcome, just bring your credit cards and obey the rules.

It's an ounce and a 1/2 now but i'm gonna support the staightchuter and get me a kukuxumusu laken stainless steel flask and fill it with everclear or bacardi 151 so I can take the bite out of loosing my freshies to lift monkeys sweet it's got sheep on it baaaaaaaa.
J True did some surrender monkey frog just call Max a turd?

[skifishbum]

I put one of those counters on Argenta. I'm going for the record this year.

Stay out of my secret stash homo

Yo ata have fun and stay safe down under too. I enjoy your reading your blogs although I'm boycotting backcountry. com cause the way they treated Powstash

[Buzzworthy]

Wheres Powstash gone to?

Look for a tall dude on Maestros at our mountain of much arguement this season once the snow actually arrives.

See ya'll sunday. Wearing ski clothes with ski type accessories and skis, don't worry, you will pass me.

I keep forgetting to log in.

[JTrue]

J True did some surrender monkey frog just call Max a turd?

Little late to the party, but yes he did. I might have to get Jesus on his ass

[RTR]

The underlying issue with ski area expansion in the Wasatch is greed (aka "Capitalism" damn it, it's the 'Merican way).

On the skiers part, you have seven ski area (eight if you count Sundance) which are either literally touching, or a stone's throw away from each other. The Wasatch gets a ton of snow and any clueless tourists can always find fresh tracks, yet that's not enough for the Yeti's and Tin's of the world who always want more, and not only that, but more served up on a silver platter in the form of a high-speed quad. The quality already exists, but it never seems to be enough.

On the Forest Service's part, it is way more profitable to lease out public land rather than leave it as open space. The Forest Service manages land the way WalMart manages toaster ovens - to make a profit. There is no profit in empty shelf space or empty land. Smokey the Bear wants you to prevent forest fires not because he cares about the trees and his animal buddies, but because a burned forest can't be leased to Weyerhauser.

On the Ski Resort and developers part, well, greed is given. It is not about skiing and never was. It is all about capturing skier days and extracting more cash from each customer. In ski industry lingo this is known as "increasing the daily spend." Welcome to Utah, now buy some one-ounce cocktails.

All of this is just a fact of life in a Capitalist society, but the troubling part about ski area expansion is when it takes place at the expense of public land and public access. The land that the Forest Service leases to ski areas is about as public as Disneyland - everyone is welcome, just bring your credit cards and obey the rules.

1. I’m not sure how you’re defining “underlying issue,” but in my lexicography, greed is not “also known as” capitalism. We can thank our capitalist economy for many of the blessings that we enjoy in this country (and many of the follies, I digress). God Bless America, damn it! I'm not saying that capitalism and greed are mutually exclusive, either.
2. Who counts Sundance? And if you did, I’d organize an event to see a stone thrown across AF canyon to Alta or the Bird. You could blog about it. Hell, I’d even make t-shirts.
3. The Forest Circus… er… Service has nothing but the best interests of the public in mind.
4. I love my toaster oven. I bought mine at Bed, Bath, and Beyond… because it was on sale, and I’m a capitalist.

Ski areas serve a grand purpose: They do a splendid job and corralling thousands of skiers into the confines of their nylon-roped boundaries. They do bring in millions of dollars in revenue that is somehow trickled down through America’s beautiful tapestry of macroeconomics. Yes, Dick Bass’s coffers might be getting heavy, or even those of the Forest Service; but it also helps the schindlerspiste’s and skifishbum’s of the Wasatch, too. Ski areas are hubs of entertainment, even for those of you/us that don’t frequent them often. Think of all the stoke enjoyed through various media: Magazines, MSP, TGR, MIT, CIA, FBI, professional photographers (I can name a handful, here in the Wasatch) gleaning art from the groomed photo sluts on un-groomed terrain, skiers pushing the limits on tricks, drops, spinny stuff… just to name a few. Think about how equipment has progressed because it can be brutally tested from 50,000 feet of vertical in a day. Think of the smiles of the children. Think of the tears of the children. For God’s sake, just think of the children. Though we’d surely all love to have our local hill truly be local, we have to understand that is such were the case, the skiing industry would scarcely be what it is today, and the implications of such are probably beyond our comprehension. [/verbarrhea]

I ask myself what the supply (of skiable resort acreage) is compared to the demand (of powder-hungry domestic/international transplant/vacationing skiers). Has the quantity of skiers coming into the Wasatch in search of the “best skiing on earth,” increased to the point of meriting a potential expansion of a (read: any number of) ski resort(s)? I doubt it. I hope not. Maybe. Perhaps an expansion of solitude would serve the public (read: greater good?). But I do empathize with the “Yeti’s and Tin’s of the world who always want more.” That’s the American way: wanting more. By the way, wanting more is not tantamount to I just try and hide my jealousy, wishing I could spend more than a dozen days a year at the resorts. Non omnia possumus omnes. (I blame Dibs, for forcing me into a mortgage.)

In all seriousness, I agree with most of what you are saying. In the personal, I want Silver Fork to remain inaccessible by lifts.

Now please forgive my post of bounded rationality.

[StraightChuter]

It's an ounce and a 1/2 now

Nothing really says "Utah Tourist" like people who order cocktails here. The look on their face when the Martini arrives with a quarter inch of liquid at the bottom of a big glass is priceless. ?? WTF? Did the waiter spill my drink or something? I feel hung over after two Utah Margaritas more from the massive sugar intake than the liquor.

[skifishbum]

Slung drinks for most of my adult life was amazed by the whacky booze laws here, but if you take care of your bartender, flavorings and creative spill sheet accounting will get ya a stiffy and one of those sheep bahhhhhh flasks never hurt. Although I like lexan to get by secrurity at concert venues. Things are getting better doing away with the private club nonsence was a good step.

[Mofro261]

Resort expansions, Tourists, Utah liquor.

You know what's to blame for the whole mess?

Fat Skis.

[skiski]

creative spill sheet accounting

They make you keep a "spill sheet"? Good god the fuckers who run this state are crazy.

And, to really digress, straightchuter, what do you propose as an alternative to capitalism? I mean, it's not perfect, but it seems to result in a higher standard of living than the alternatives.

[StraightChuter]

Capitalism goes wrong when it crosses over into excessive greed. In the case of ski area expansion, it is like someone complaining that their 20,000 square foot house isn't big enough and they need a special exemption/variation to expand onto free neighboring property to survive or they'll somehow go out of business and take the rest of the community with them. This is especially pathetic considering the resorts/home owners are way over their heads in debt in the first place (with the exception of Alta and DV) and the whole thing is just speculation. The American business mentality is "grow or die" which most companies take to mean grow physically, not in quality. I liked how Alta upgraded Collins and Watson's Shelter over the last few years, verses how Snowbird just keeps their same old crappy infrastructure and insists that they need more acreage to stay viable with places like Vail, Aspen and Whistler.

For the sake of wilderness and open space, I'm still hoping the economy shits the bed.

[Buzzworthy]

In the personal, I want Silver Fork to remain inaccessible by lifts.

Easy, I know where you live....or about to live.

[Johnny Deep]

They make you keep a "spill sheet"? Good god the fuckers who run this state are crazy.

Kinda obvious, eh?

[skifishbum]

^^^^ or how the powder turds need to fly two ships in order to be "profitable" .

[ill-advised strategy]

fat skis and AT bindings.

strange but true.

For the record I am not as much a fan of the high speed quad as I am the centerpost fixed grip double. I am however more of a fan of the high speed quad than skinning. I like skiing, so I do always want more area to ski, you are correct there.

I don't care how many pictures Powder Magazine prints of people slogging uphill (fuck, it's almost more than people skiing anymore), or that there are more pictures of children in the park than men and women skiing inbounds steeps, I will not be ashamed to enjoy what I enjoy.

You guys who know me know that I can spend all day long lapping the Tram at snowbird, lapping the powho lift, or the summit chair, literally skiing "my line" in the trees somewhere until the bump line is exactly what I made it to be, then sessioning that bump line through an entire high pressure system. This is how I roll. I am really only good at a handful of things across the broad spectrum of life, one of those things is skiing lift served bumped out steeps. I grew up in Michigan skiing the same GS or SL course over and over again trying to nail it. I grew up skiing the same bump lines over and over again trying to nail it. This is how I like to ski. It doesn't mean the course doesn't change, you want a different course every day or a variety of courses, or fun places to take a visiting friend...options. You want room to move on a pow day. More good, steep lift served terrain is more of what I enjoy more than anything else in skiing.

Nothing anybody says is ever going to alter my lifelong love for skiing lift served terrain. Call it what you want, it's the most fun thing I get to do. Want to start grouping "resort skiers" into a stereotype, or people who like to lap terrain into some ridiculous caricaturist ethos? Better include every world cup downhiller, every world cup bumper, every IFSA skier lapping a venue, and the vast majority of strong alpine skiers before mainstream modern A/T bindings. If the only kewl thing to do as a skier is BC ski, fuck it, I'm just not going to be cool...just like I've decided I'm wearing carhartts for the rest of my life even if someday they're not cool anymore. Fuck it.

I imagine this is similar in nature to the fact that nothing I or anybody else says is going to keep the skiers who love touring and love the BC from loving what they love. My only point with regard to that, is that the venue for BC skiing is, really, almost any place with mountains and snow. Having flown over the wasatch in a helicopter a lot (fucking hold your fire SFB, it was summer/fire stuff ) I can say that the ski areas are a small, small amount of the snowy mountains where a person who likes BC could go ski. The ratio is remarkable really. Take a look.



What's to say that the BC that becomes sidecountry/slackcountry with an expansion isn't just as good or better than the current sidecountry being absorbed? How is it a given that this will have the posited effects: harming the wasatch BC skiing experience, furthering retarded condo crap, turning soli into vail/killington/DV? I just don't see it.

re: The Big Forest Service Conspiracy Theory:
StraightChuter, you are just plainly incorrect as to the rationale at work within the Forest Service. I did a workmanlike job of explaining how that goes earlier in the thread, you may disagree, but you would be incorrect. However it plays out, however it may appear, and whatever your cynical impression of it, the agency will consistently do its best to manage the land in ways that benefit the most people for the longest time. Anything other than that, from a policy standpoint, slights the public out of their agricultural land by design. This is not a park, it's not managed as a park with an aesthetic/preservation objective! The debate here is over what use best accomplishes that "greatest good" objective, not over the existence of some hidden forest service agenda.

[Trackhead]

For the sake of wilderness and open space, I'm still hoping the economy shits the bed.

Yeah, then much like the auto industry, Obama/Geitner will 'buy' the ski industry. We'll have a gubbernment run Wasatch Lift System.

Obama skis, right?

[BobMc]

For the sake of wilderness and open space, I'm still hoping the economy shits the bed.

Hell yeah! I'm hoping the Afghanistan war blossoms, so all the 18-30 year olds get drafted. That way I'd not have to worry about as many crowds at the resort, it'll be sweet!

[StraightChuter]

re: The Big Forest Service Conspiracy Theory:
StraightChuter, you are just plainly incorrect as to the rationale at work within the Forest Service. I did a workmanlike job of explaining how that goes earlier in the thread, you may disagree, but you would be incorrect. However it plays out, however it may appear, and whatever your cynical impression of it, the agency will consistently do its best to manage the land in ways that benefit the most people for the longest time. Anything other than that, from a policy standpoint, slights the public out of their agricultural land by design. This is not a park, it's not managed as a park with an aesthetic/preservation objective! The debate here is over what use best accomplishes that "greatest good" objective, not over the existence of some hidden forest service agenda.

I worked for the Forest Service for a season as well and have also dealt with them on permitting and land use issues, which is where my "cynical impression" comes from. I think the foot soliders of the FS (Rangers, Avalanche Forecasters, etc.) care a lot about the environment, but the agency as a whole is tasked with managing/profiting from the the natural resources. Backcountry skiers, hikers, bird watchers, hunters and picnickers contribute zero to the permitting process, whereas ski resorts and heli operations contribute cash. I don't think that has anything to do with the greatest good for the greatest number of people, especially looking towards the future. It is hardly a conspiracy theory as it is right out there in the open. When and if enough people value open space to push it into the Wilderness or Park realm, that will be a different thing, but until then the FS (For Sale) is going to manage it for a profit. It is their job.

And, you seem to have some sort of chip on your shoulder about enjoying resort skiing.

[frozenwater]

trying to keep tabs on this thread is getting a bit hard. Will someone PM me when the lift gets in so I can start skiing Silver Fork? Think it will happen this week or are they going to need till after christmas to get it in?


Also, is it easier to do it a drainage at a time like this, cause I think we should start the ball rolling asap on the lift up to the top of cardiac ridge.

Kthanksbye.

[skifishbum]

They're waiting for Iceman to arrive and cut the ribbon