Solitude Expansion...

[wra]

FWIW
I had an Alta season pass for 25 years. The last few years I had it, rode lifts maybe 4 or 5 days. Mostly used for a lift to leave the area. I called it my bus pass.
They priced me out and I lost interest in fighting for first tracks, people pushing, trying to knock you off the traverse and using ski poles as weapons when passed.
The season pass was less than $200 in the beginning.
Before that we just bought ten riders on Albion and Majestic. there was no Supreme lift, no Snake Creek, no Crest, no Great Western, no Summit and no Mineral Basin.
There are plenty of lifts, no more are needed to serve the "greatest good".
My knees no longer enjoy the pounding so fucking leave what's left alone, coudja?

[mtnbirder]

I agree with Yeti in that people in this Forum can sometimes forget that there are other people in the world than maggots. Claiming that "people can already get into Silver Fork if they want..." That is ridiculous. There is all sorts of knowledge, gear, and physical fitness that are required to access that terrain that most skiers in the wasatch do not have access to. Sure, you might be able to make the claim that most maggots do, but that is not the issue. Personally, I would prefer if Solitude did not expand because if that happens in addition to the new lift at Alta, it will essentially merge BCC and LCC into one continuous area of development and human influence. Being a wildlife biologist, I am wary of the fragmentation of the wasatch which is already an extremely small patch of habitat. In addition, as a backcountry skier, Silver and Days are perfect spots for quick dawn patrols before work.

In essence, there are many views that need to be considered and the goal of FS land is not to cater to the majority position. It is to "sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation’s forests to meet the needs of present and future generations." Yes the land belongs to the public but that does not imply that all of the public should have access to it, as multiple people in this thread have argued. Ski resorts are simply one of the many "needs of present and future generations." These expansions have nothing to do with giving more people access to public land. They have to do with making more money.

[Trackhead]

There is all sorts of knowledge, gear, and physical fitness that are required to access that terrain that most skiers in the wasatch do not have access to.

Which is part of the appeal. Taking the time to acquire the skills and knowledge to do so, and to do so safely. Nobody wakes up, puts on a pair of skis, and skis 21 1/2 at Solitude like Alto. It takes years of experience to acquire those skills. Maybe we can bulldoze 21 1/2 so I can ski it safely.

[BobMc]

Goes both ways, look in the mirror. The original poster has a history of it too. There is some weird reaction by some resort skiers to think that we who only ski tour perceive ourselves as the elite. Not sure where you get that from.

A question/observation on the attitude of the message board was ugly contempt?

Yeah, I have no idea where that weird reaction came from. Could it be that perhaps every time someone asks about a resort, or snowcat skiing, or heli skiing, you have to have 15 people pile on about how the questionaire is a fag or lazy for skiing in the resort/heli/snowcat?

[Dantheman]

Claiming that "people can already get into Silver Fork if they want..." That is ridiculous. There is all sorts of knowledge, gear, and physical fitness that are required to access that terrain that most skiers in the wasatch do not have access to.

Please go back and re-read cololi's post. Dude was XC skiing in Sliver Fork at six years old. BC skiers are hardly the only user group. "Using" Silver Fork does not necessarily mean skiing the upper bowl. All anyone needs to enjoy Silver Fork is a pair of snowshoes which could probably be picked up at a swap or on ebay for under $50, and that is how lots of people do it. All of the summer trails in the Wasatch are heavily used in the winter by snowshoers and I have $100 that says snowshoers easily outnumber BC skiers in the Wasatch and in Silver Fork specifically.

Yeti - The only thing I have contempt for is you arguing that a lift up Silver Fork would be a greater public good than no lift. You dislike hiking, that's fine, nothing wrong with that, but this "greatest good for the greatest number" stuff is a ridiculous argument.

[tuco]

Claiming that "people can already get into Silver Fork if they want..." That is ridiculous. There is all sorts of knowledge, gear, and physical fitness that are required to access that terrain that most skiers in the wasatch do not have access to.

Seriously? Really it's ridiculous that you think it's ridiculous. This land is open to EVERYONE right now. Sure you need knowledge, gear and some degree of physical fitness. Even as a lift riding skier you need a certin amount of these aspects, so it's a moot point really. If you put a lift in there, then it is not open to everyone, because you have cut a segment of prospective users out of the equation. How is this not being exclusive? Oh ,it's not because you can still pay your $62(when a lift goes in, you can throw this figure right out the window) to use your own(public) land. That's bullshit and ridiculous!


That's akin to saying the freeways should be open to people that don't know how to drive(knowledge), don't have a car(gear) and are blind(physical fitness) because it public property.

Sadly, in the end, you and Trackhead are going to be correct. There more than likely will be a lift in there under the guise of the 'greatest good for the most people', when essentially it will really be about the almightly $$$.

[Trackhead]

Another piece of the Wasatch lost to development, lodges, condos, roads, lift towers, snow cats, snowmobiles, bombs, no uphill traffic. Gone, all for a private companies profits.

[mtnbirder]

Seriously? Really it's ridiculous that you think it's ridiculous. This land is open to EVERYONE right now. Sure you need knowledge, gear and some degree of physical fitness. Even as a lift riding skier you need a certin amount of these aspects, so it's a moot point really. If you put a lift in there, then it is not open to everyone, because you have cut a segment of prospective users out of the equation. How is this not being exclusive? Oh ,it's not because you can still pay your $62(when a lift goes in, you can throw this figure right out the window) to use your own(public) land. That's bullshit and ridiculous!


That's akin to saying the freeways should be open to people that don't know how to drive(knowledge), don't have a car(gear) and are blind(physical fitness) because it public property.

Sadly, in the end, you and Trackhead are going to be correct. There more than likely will be a lift in there under the guise of the 'greatest good for the most people', when essentially it will really be about the almightly $$$.

Look, I agree that the area is open to everyone right now. Your point about if there is a lift there, it won't be open to everyone is a great point.

I was trying to say that Yeti had a good point about some backcountry skiers having an elitist attitude, ignoring the opinions of other people because skiing backcountry is better. Obviously this is not true of all BC skiers but I have definitely noticed it. In this forum for example, the experience and background of skiers is exponentially higher than that of the population of SLC. The people in this forum are the best of the best. So naturally you would expect to overlook the fact that the percentage of the population that does not have the ability to access Silver Fork, be it on snowshoes or whatever, is small. Just because Cololi went in there when he was 10, does not mean that the general public should strap on their snowshoes and head up.

This is not a bad thing. I agree with TH, that is part of the appeal. I was simply pointing out that some of the attacks on Yeti were slightly flawed.

This had nothing to do with my opinion for the lift however. As I said in my second paragraph, I am in no way in favor of any more develpment of the wasatch.

[tuco]

Look, I agree that the area is open to everyone right now. Your point about if there is a lift there, it won't be open to everyone is a great point.

I was trying to say that Yeti had a good point about some backcountry skiers having an elitist attitude, ignoring the opinions of other people because skiing backcountry is better. Obviously this is not true of all BC skiers but I have definitely noticed it. In this forum for example, the experience and background of skiers is exponentially higher than that of the population of SLC. The people in this forum are the best of the best. So naturally you would expect to overlook the fact that the percentage of the population that does not have the ability to access Silver Fork, be it on snowshoes or whatever, is small. Just because Cololi went in there when he was 10, does not mean that the general public should strap on their snowshoes and head up.

This is not a bad thing. I agree with TH, that is part of the appeal. I was simply pointing out that some of the attacks on Yeti were slightly flawed.

This had nothing to do with my opinion for the lift however. As I said in my second paragraph, I am in no way in favor of any more develpment of the wasatch.

Understood. I wasn't personnally attacking you, nor have I personally attacked Yeti. In fact, he is about the only one to bring any decent points at all in favor, except for the points he brought up three posts of his back.

In the end we are all just stating opinions, right or wrong, I'm not going to think Yeti or any of you is a douche just because you might want a lift in Silver. I'm sure he's a cool dude and could probably have fun skiing with the dude.

Like I said, I hold a pass there and will ski that area regardless. I just haven't heard an argument that really makes me believe that this is the most good for the most people, period.

If you think about the layout in Silver, one lift ain't gonna do shit! Especially for you all that don't want to hike a little or traverse. So lets just say what it really is: the full development of Silver ie.. more than one lift and more than likely some base type development like TH mentioned.

I'm with TH, Soli can suck his after touring all day in Silver, SWEATY FUCKING BALLS !

[Adski]

Took a few visits to read through this thread, but it's an interesting one. I also started skiing in Silver Fk when I was a little kid, going to the mine in the flats on skinny skis with my mom wearing legwarmers for gaitors (yep it was the early eighties, yep Flashdance was hot). Was a regular in the Davenport Lodge before it was burned by visiting lift skiers.

More than once over that time Solitude has petitioned the W-C NF to expand into the drainage. Thanks to the work that SOC, SL City Utilities, homeowners, the FS (to their credit, they see ski resort expansion on FS lands as a headache), and the BC and lift-skiing public has put into the issue, the requests to expand into Silver have been routinely denied. I imagine this request will be denied, too. W-C NF likely sees little purpose and need for Soli to expand, esp. when weighed against watershed concerns, critical summer range for wildlife, avalanche control logistics and slippery slope considerations of granting this request to expand on FS land (it would be the first in how long? Since Albion Basin? Gad Valley? Even those are patchwork patented claims and FS lands right? It would surely reignite all the other ski resorts' rush to expand). I hope I am right, for all (most) our sakes.

That said, letter sent!

[ill-advised strategy]

I would say this, having really thought about this probably more than I should have and slept on it for a few days....If they do allow for development it should certainly be with some careful oversight to ensure that whatever is built is built in a minimalist way. I would also say, as I did earlier with regard to condos, if this would involve roping an area of forest service land off from the non-soli-customer public, forget it- I can't support that....that's ridiculous and I can't for the life of me believe Alta and Solitude get away with that now. What a crock.

I suppose when I think "new lift" I imagine the best case kind of scenario because I remember when wolf creek put the waterfall lift in and it was really, really low impact. I've been visualizing that chair and the honeycomb chair for a lot of this discussion. I can't imagine the difference in water quality between water coming out of honeycomb with or without that honeycomb chair. Start bulldozing a lot of roads and constructing buildings and cutting a lot of timber and you probably have a different outcome. I also have this sense of all these early seasons of my life when all of a sudden you get a new chair and new terrain that wasn't there yesterday, it's a good feeling and I like it. At what cost...I don't know. There is an awful lot of due diligence involved in something like this and I sure hope the FS makes the effort to get it right, if I've learned anything from this it's how much people need/enjoy those sanctuaries right next to the city.

I wanted to post to give you all the satisfaction of knowing that you all have expanded my mind on some things. Thanks for that.

[Shredgar]

I think a little kid could do just fine in there, today or yesterday. Maybe not a novice little kid though.

My daughter skied silver fork a few years ago when she was 11yrs old.

Took a couple of her girlfriends along, ages 9 & 11.

On tele gear.

As part of a Brighton > TLP > Davenport > Silver > Days tour - w/a car drop.

Those in favor of chairlifts, do your husbands ski?

Heh heh.

Wra is right as always, too many lifts already.

[ill-advised strategy]

Those in favor of chairlifts, do your husbands ski?
Heh heh.

okdude...

[tuco]

I can't imagine the difference in water quality between water coming out of honeycomb with or without that honeycomb chair.

I don't have any sort of data on this and no sort of educated guess, but I have seen the remnants a couple times of burst hydraulic hoses on snowcats--not pretty!(just thought I would edit this to say neither time was at Soli) And I would imagine they leave behind some sort of greasy residue from diesel fuel exhaust. Not debatin'-just sayin'.

[ill-advised strategy]

yeah, I guess any time you've got machinery in the mix it's a potential watershed issue.

[tone capone]

I was having this same argument with my dad recently. I really think it is hilarious that people who are always arguing in favor of lifts to everywhere play the elitist card and yet have never once in their life had the experience of earning their turns. Then they tell you that you should just suck it up and have to ski crap hardpack and moguls with thousands of other people and pay the better part of 100 dollars for it and for a quality of experience that is 1/10th of what you are used to. They want to tell you that it's for the greater public good and all that shit which is an obviously flawed argument as has been demonstrated numerous times in this thread.

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to skin and how many options you have each day that won't put you in danger of losing your life. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need a lift to make every turn that you see fit to make. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day that makes you think twice about your attitudes about quantity over quality.

Not really trying to insult or attack anyone, all I am arguing in favor of is to have the OPTION to travel uphill under my own power to ski how I see fit on REASONABLY ACCESSIBLE public lands. Be careful what you wish for down there.

[ill-advised strategy]

1) If I'm wearing a bunch of clunky safety-rescue equipment in order to go skiing, it's already not a good day.

2) I have skied powder, lots and lots of powder. I'll still take 10 runs on steep styrofoam or decent bumps over 2 hours of xc skiing and 1 run in pow.

3) Nobody ever told you that you have to ski anything. What I said way way back in this thread is that if you want to get away from lifts it's not hard...you know where they are. If there's a lift in silver fork nobody is going to force you to ski there and only there.

4) Not everyone is like you. Posting that you just wish people were like you so they could like what you like and that it sucks to be anybody who doesn't think like you....fucking lame bro.
Let me try it on you and see how it feels on your end:

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to ski bumps and how many options you have each day to find good snow inbounds. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't put the miles in to acquire the skill it takes, and it sucks for you that you need to XC ski to get to hero snow to enjoy skiing. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you get 20 long really super high quality runs in instead of a handful.

not cool really...

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to go to church and how many options you have each day to find salvation in Jesus. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't prayed in church, and it sucks for you that you need to drink and fornicate to have fun. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have the peace of God in your life.


It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to go down to the ocean and how many options you have each day to find really good waves. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need to sit around town doing nothing when you could be surfing. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day that makes you think twice about the ocean.


It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to make money as a gay prostitute and how many options you have each day to roll in the money. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't tried it, and it sucks for you that you need to go to some real job. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you make a thousand dollars giving handjobs in an alley.

It's just really sad is all, If only most of those folks knew how easy it is to get to heaven with 77 virgins and how many options you have each day to become a martyr for allah. That's all I'm saying, it sucks for those knocking it who haven't studied the koran, and it sucks for you that you need to keep living when you could be in heaven with all that virgin poon. I sincerely hope that you guys just once in your life can have a day where you really understand what islam is all about.

[skiski]

okdude...

Why do you put down xc skiing? Several times in this thread you used the term "cross-country skiing" to describe skinning, and used the term in a way that implied xc skiing was synonymous with "lame". Isn't that sort of elitist? Do you think that xc skiers don't ski steep bump lines just because they lack the skills to do so? Maybe they just don't want to risk fucking up their knees. Maybe they really enjoy the glide and the cardiovascular work out.

I think you've had a good open mind in this discussion, for the most part. But I think it's funny that those who claim backcountry skiers are elitist and think their better than everyone else have another group of skiers they clearly look down on.

[ill-advised strategy]

Why do you put down xc skiing? Several times in this thread you used the term "cross-country skiing" to describe skinning, and used the term in a way that implied xc skiing was synonymous with "lame".

Yeah, I'm not into XC. I was raised on nordic skiing. Nowadays if I want to go for a walk I just go for a walk instead of going to some place and putting on a bunch of gear to go for a walk on snow.

Isn't that sort of elitist?

Not after I spent a good deal of time explaining that I don't think a person's choice of recreation is a good way to judge a person's worth. For example, that guy in the photo. I think he looks like a fool at that moment, but who hasn't looked like a fool, and what's to say he's not a great guy. Determining what's elite in terms of different sports is totally subjective, relative and almost meaningless. They think our sport is dumb, we think theirs is dumb, who fucking cares.

Do you think that xc skiers don't ski steep bump lines just because they lack the skills to do so? Maybe they just don't want to risk fucking up their knees.

I just think people like what they like. What kind of skiing you do doesn't really determine how manly you are. If Shredgar wants to imply I'm queer because I like chairlifts, I'm going to post some nordic skier in gayish stretch pants because what kind of skiing you do isn't a function of how macho you are (when I posted it I didn't really think it needed a big explanation, but I guess I was wrong). If you nordic ski solo across greenland or you alpine ski the hahnenkamm off chairlifts or you A/T timpanogos or superior or whatever...that's muy macho: not just putting the gear on and doing the sport. That's how this works imho.

Maybe they really enjoy the glide and the cardiovascular work out.

well that's very richard simmons of them.

[wra]

So, what's elite about bc skiing in Silver Fork?
Little children are doing it as has been posted several times.
Yetiman just wants a new bump run?

[ill-advised strategy]

yeah. that's what the 20 pages of writing was: my epic swan song to bumping up the backcountry.

[bl2000]

Parley's Canyon/Snyderville Basin has 3 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs. DV and the Canyons are expanding every other year.

LCC has 2 f'in HUGE ski areas covered top to bottom with runs (closer to SLC than S'tude, by the way), they've expanded, most recently into Mineral Basin, built a tunnel to get there, have a tram tower you can see from the valley (and, shit, the front side of the Bird was BC less than 40 years ago), blah, blah, blah.

It sounds to me like a lot of folks here are singling out BCC for the only canyon NOT allowed to have ski area expansion. Like I said earlier in this thread, put the lift in, let S'tude do avy control, watch SF get - maybe - 10-20% tracked out (like Honeycomb does now) and go do AT there also.

[Trackhead]

It sounds to me like a lot of folks here are singling out BCC for the only canyon NOT allowed to have ski area expansion. Like I said earlier in this thread, put the lift in, let S'tude do avy control, watch SF get - maybe - 10-20% tracked out (like Honeycomb does now) and go do AT there also.

Yeah right.

What the fuck are you smoking? Do you even ski tour? Have you ever been in the Wasatch on a sunny, bluebird saturday?

[bl2000]

Yeah right.

What the fuck are you smoking?

I'm not smoking anything. Duh, that MUST be my problem.

[Trackhead]

So have you ever skied in SF?