some damn good IPA's out there

[EWG]

Costs:

I have some pretty good info, as we support the brewery biz. No brewery in the world is losing money on ANY beer they are charging $5.00/ can for. That's laughable.

I know for certain that a midsized, highly respected craft brewery (regional) analyzed their cost to produce a beer coming out of their taproom taps, and it was between 25 cents and 60 cents depending on the brew. That's just the ingredient cost - not overhead. Remember that stainless costs a fortune. Volume certainly helps, but it's not a cure all. Just as an example, you can get a really good 200 bbl fermentor for $30,000, whereas a top of the line 750bbl costs about $250,000 (Ziemmann's tank.) A big time custom brewhouse runs around 5 million. So on a per-barrel basis, the stainless actually gets more expensive for the important equipment, but it's far more efficient. A small brewery might run 9:1 on water to beer produced ratio, for example, while a really advanced high end craft brewery can get into the 4.5:1 ratio. That's where volume helps.

Of course, the little guys like Treehouse and Lawsons (I don't have a personal connection to either of those specific breweries, to be clear) did NOT get into the business to be efficient and make a fortune. Small breweries that are doing it out of love tend to be really wasteful with resources, money and personnel. Which is fine, they aren't business people. So their costs will be higher and the margins smaller. But the fact that they sell so much beer out of the brewery changes things dramatically. A Southern Tier (as an example) is selling a 6 pack (72oz) to a distributor for something like $6. Treehouse is selling a can (16oz) for $4. Trust me, unless they are horribly mismanaging things in multiple ways, Treehouse is doing just fine.

That's why the regional breweries have started to put so much emphasis on bottle and rarity releases. If you sell 500 cases direct from the brewery on a Saturday for $8 bottle (there's a brewer that I work with that does exactly that for barrel aged) you make $100,000 in a day. Way better margins than putting your product on store shelves.

[dookeyXXX]

I have a question about labeling.

Just got back from a trip to the Bay Area and hit up a coupla Sacramento breweries on the way home ($15 4-packs at one, $18 at the other).
I picked up a 4-pack labeled "India Pale Ale". Just cracked one open and it was heavy and rich. I twirled the label and on the back it says 9.3% ABV and describes the beer as an "Imperial IPA".
Most other breweries I buy from state if the beer is an IIPA or DIPA on the front of the label just underneath the name. I actually tend to shy away from IIPAs and DIPAs because they are a bit heavy for my taste and would never have bought this beer if it had stated it was an IIPA on the front of the label.
So, my question: does a brewery have to plainly state when it is an IIPA or DIPA due to the increased ALC/ABV?

[jackstraw]

Costs:

I have some pretty good info, as we support the brewery biz. No brewery in the world is losing money on ANY beer they are charging $5.00/ can for. That's laughable.

I know for certain that a midsized, highly respected craft brewery (regional) analyzed their cost to produce a beer coming out of their taproom taps, and it was between 25 cents and 60 cents depending on the brew. That's just the ingredient cost - not overhead. Remember that stainless costs a fortune. Volume certainly helps, but it's not a cure all. Just as an example, you can get a really good 200 bbl fermentor for $30,000, whereas a top of the line 750bbl costs about $250,000 (Ziemmann's tank.) A big time custom brewhouse runs around 5 million. So on a per-barrel basis, the stainless actually gets more expensive for the important equipment, but it's far more efficient. A small brewery might run 9:1 on water to beer produced ratio, for example, while a really advanced high end craft brewery can get into the 4.5:1 ratio. That's where volume helps.

Of course, the little guys like Treehouse and Lawsons (I don't have a personal connection to either of those specific breweries, to be clear) did NOT get into the business to be efficient and make a fortune. Small breweries that are doing it out of love tend to be really wasteful with resources, money and personnel. Which is fine, they aren't business people. So their costs will be higher and the margins smaller. But the fact that they sell so much beer out of the brewery changes things dramatically. A Southern Tier (as an example) is selling a 6 pack (72oz) to a distributor for something like $6. Treehouse is selling a can (16oz) for $4. Trust me, unless they are horribly mismanaging things in multiple ways, Treehouse is doing just fine.

That's why the regional breweries have started to put so much emphasis on bottle and rarity releases. If you sell 500 cases direct from the brewery on a Saturday for $8 bottle (there's a brewer that I work with that does exactly that for barrel aged) you make $100,000 in a day. Way better margins than putting your product on store shelves.

Adds up, just ask Jim Koch.

[t-the-east]

I have a question about labeling.

Just got back from a trip to the Bay Area and hit up a coupla Sacramento breweries on the way home ($15 4-packs at one, $18 at the other).
I picked up a 4-pack labeled "India Pale Ale". Just cracked one open and it was heavy and rich. I twirled the label and on the back it says 9.3% ABV and describes the beer as an "Imperial IPA".
Most other breweries I buy from state if the beer is an IIPA or DIPA on the front of the label just underneath the name. I actually tend to shy away from IIPAs and DIPAs because they are a bit heavy for my taste and would never have bought this beer if it had stated it was an IIPA on the front of the label.
So, my question: does a brewery have to plainly state when it is an IIPA or DIPA due to the increased ALC/ABV?

I believe if they put a UPC barcode on it,it is subject to regulations. No barcode, no regulations. At least in my state

[Name Redacted]

Costs:

I have some pretty good info, as we support the brewery biz. No brewery in the world is losing money on ANY beer they are charging $5.00/ can for. That's laughable.

I know for certain that a midsized, highly respected craft brewery (regional) analyzed their cost to produce a beer coming out of their taproom taps, and it was between 25 cents and 60 cents depending on the brew. That's just the ingredient cost - not overhead. Remember that stainless costs a fortune. Volume certainly helps, but it's not a cure all. Just as an example, you can get a really good 200 bbl fermentor for $30,000, whereas a top of the line 750bbl costs about $250,000 (Ziemmann's tank.) A big time custom brewhouse runs around 5 million. So on a per-barrel basis, the stainless actually gets more expensive for the important equipment, but it's far more efficient. A small brewery might run 9:1 on water to beer produced ratio, for example, while a really advanced high end craft brewery can get into the 4.5:1 ratio. That's where volume helps.

Of course, the little guys like Treehouse and Lawsons (I don't have a personal connection to either of those specific breweries, to be clear) did NOT get into the business to be efficient and make a fortune. Small breweries that are doing it out of love tend to be really wasteful with resources, money and personnel. Which is fine, they aren't business people. So their costs will be higher and the margins smaller. But the fact that they sell so much beer out of the brewery changes things dramatically. A Southern Tier (as an example) is selling a 6 pack (72oz) to a distributor for something like $6. Treehouse is selling a can (16oz) for $4. Trust me, unless they are horribly mismanaging things in multiple ways, Treehouse is doing just fine.

That's why the regional breweries have started to put so much emphasis on bottle and rarity releases. If you sell 500 cases direct from the brewery on a Saturday for $8 bottle (there's a brewer that I work with that does exactly that for barrel aged) you make $100,000 in a day. Way better margins than putting your product on store shelves.

$100K in a day is not much (especially for a regional brewery) for beers that had to age in barrels for a year, paid for a warehouse to store em, bought the barrels, some of them went bad, labor, had the bottling line and process dialed so they were bottle bombs etc. etc. You aren't "Making a $100K in a day" that's not all profit. You are regaining $90K of your investment in a day after 6-12 months of paying for the thing I listed above. That isn't going to keep the doors open long. Yeah, margins are better out of the taproom, but the risk of not selling out is there too. What if it pours rain on the bottle release day?

Equipment is a capital expense that is depreciated over time and while it does affect the bottom line, it usually isn't factored into the price of the product as it is an expense that every brewery shares. However, your point is correct that the bigger the equipment, the lower it costs per bbl usually, however, bigger batches require much more quality control to avoid loss. A 750 bbl batch goes bad and you are putting a lot of beer (and money) down the drain. Not to mention that NEIPAs specifically have a very small window of freshness, so to sell 750 bbl (46,000 4 packs of 16oz cans) you better have a pretty damn popular product that is dialed. Not to mention the significant amount of loss to the trub monster.

I don't know about the east coast breweries, but many of the guys doing these NEIPAs aren't brewing them in massive batches. Our local NEIPA superstar brewery is only brewing in 15 bbl batches and selling cans out the door and in a small tap room in a strip mall. They are actually using a mobile canning company to can their beers too, which ups their costs significantly. Labels are even more expensive for these one-off beers. You want just 1000 labels? You could be paying around $.40 a can, and you are paying a kid $12 an hour to put them on by hand on a roller. Of course this isn't the case everywhere, but at the really small guys it is.

Obviously, economies of scale apply in every facet of this, but the bigger the brewery, the less of the mystique behind the brand. You think Sam Adams could have a can release and have a line around the block charging $8 a can? Nope. But the guy on a 15bbl located in a shopping mall with far less overhead can. The trick is, how do you keep that mystique as you scale up?

The margins are tighter than you might think on these breweries is my point. I doubt many of them are laughing their way to the bank, and all it takes is a downturn or change in the market and you'll see the ones who didn't do their homework start to get filtered out.

[Name Redacted]

I believe if they put a UPC barcode on it,it is subject to regulations. No barcode, no regulations. At least in my state

Nope, ABV is not required to be listed, neither is style, or nutritional info unless you are selling a shitton of it. I think that when it crosses state lines this changes. However, why wouldn't you call it a DIPA and charge more for it, and list the ABV as a selling point. I had a triple IPA recently that didn't list the ABV? WTF? but they aren't required to believe it or not.

[prsboogie]

$100K in a day is not much (especially for a regional brewery) for beers that had to age in barrels for a year, paid for a warehouse to store em, bought the barrels, some of them went bad, labor, had the bottling line and process dialed so they were bottle bombs etc. etc. You aren't "Making a $100K in a day" that's not all profit. You are regaining $90K of your investment in a day after 6-12 months of paying for the thing I listed above. That isn't going to keep the doors open long. Yeah, margins are better out of the taproom, but the risk of not selling out is there too. What if it pours rain on the bottle release day?

Equipment is a capital expense that is depreciated over time and while it does affect the bottom line, it usually isn't factored into the price of the product as it is an expense that every brewery shares. However, your point is correct that the bigger the equipment, the lower it costs per bbl usually, however, bigger batches require much more quality control to avoid loss. A 750 bbl batch goes bad and you are putting a lot of beer (and money) down the drain. Not to mention that NEIPAs specifically have a very small window of freshness, so to sell 750 bbl (46,000 4 packs of 16oz cans) you better have a pretty damn popular product that is dialed. Not to mention the significant amount of loss to the trub monster.

I don't know about the east coast breweries, but many of the guys doing these NEIPAs aren't brewing them in massive batches. Our local NEIPA superstar brewery is only brewing in 15 bbl batches and selling cans out the door and in a small tap room in a strip mall. They are actually using a mobile canning company to can their beers too, which ups their costs significantly. Labels are even more expensive for these one-off beers. You want just 1000 labels? You could be paying around $.40 a can, and you are paying a kid $12 an hour to put them on by hand on a roller. Of course this isn't the case everywhere, but at the really small guys it is.

Obviously, economies of scale apply in every facet of this, but the bigger the brewery, the less of the mystique behind the brand. You think Sam Adams could have a can release and have a line around the block charging $8 a can? Nope. But the guy on a 15bbl located in a shopping mall with far less overhead can. The trick is, how do you keep that mystique as you scale up?

The margins are tighter than you might think on these breweries is my point. I doubt many of them are laughing their way to the bank, and all it takes is a downturn or change in the market and you'll see the ones who didn't do their homework start to get filtered out.

I would much rather pay 45-46 for 3- 4packs than 2!

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[Name Redacted]

Economy is good, job market is good, people don't mind throwing down significant cash to up their image. I mean sure, it is $8 a can, but being able to post a single pic to TGR, Instagram, multiple Facebook groups, Twitter, Rate beer, Beer Advocate, Untappd, Snapchat, etc.
Who can put a price tag on that?

[retirwntm]

Economy is good, job market is good, people don't mind throwing down significant cash to up their image. I mean sure, it is $8 a can, but being able to post a single pic to TGR, Instagram, multiple Facebook groups, Twitter, Rate beer, Beer Advocate, Untappd, Snapchat, etc.
Who can put a price tag on that?

Wait to go asshole. I was thinking about posting a pic as I read this. Now I’m thinking...is there anything more expensive or exotic so I don’t feel so plain when I’m instagramming the shit out of my life [emoji6]


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[Vt-Freeheel]

I like tasty beer and reading the [mostly] non hipster db descriptions offered hear.


Yuck, cheap swill. So Pabst paying $17-8 a barrel?

Pabst says MillerCoors wouldn’t agree to an extension unless Pabst paid $45 per barrel — “a commercially devastating, near-triple price increase” from what it pays now. At the March hearing, Paris said MillerCoors knew Pabst couldn’t accept that proposal “because it would have bankrupted us three times over.”


http://time.com

[EWG]

That is some cheap swill. 31 gallons per barrel = approx 4,000 oz. That's about 330 cans. Which means PBR was buying their beer from MillerCoors for 5 cents per 12oz, and the price is going up to close to 14 cents. That's so stupidly low. However, they are selling it to distributors for about 30 cents per 12oz.

Kinda a whole different world from the $5-6/16oz craft guys.

[ColMan]

$100K in a day is not much (especially for a regional brewery) for beers that had to age in barrels for a year, paid for a warehouse to store em, bought the barrels, some of them went bad, labor, had the bottling line and process dialed so they were bottle bombs etc. etc. You aren't "Making a $100K in a day" that's not all profit. You are regaining $90K of your investment in a day after 6-12 months of paying for the thing I listed above. That isn't going to keep the doors open long. Yeah, margins are better out of the taproom, but the risk of not selling out is there too. What if it pours rain on the bottle release day?

Equipment is a capital expense that is depreciated over time and while it does affect the bottom line, it usually isn't factored into the price of the product as it is an expense that every brewery shares. However, your point is correct that the bigger the equipment, the lower it costs per bbl usually, however, bigger batches require much more quality control to avoid loss. A 750 bbl batch goes bad and you are putting a lot of beer (and money) down the drain. Not to mention that NEIPAs specifically have a very small window of freshness, so to sell 750 bbl (46,000 4 packs of 16oz cans) you better have a pretty damn popular product that is dialed. Not to mention the significant amount of loss to the trub monster.

I don't know about the east coast breweries, but many of the guys doing these NEIPAs aren't brewing them in massive batches. Our local NEIPA superstar brewery is only brewing in 15 bbl batches and selling cans out the door and in a small tap room in a strip mall. They are actually using a mobile canning company to can their beers too, which ups their costs significantly. Labels are even more expensive for these one-off beers. You want just 1000 labels? You could be paying around $.40 a can, and you are paying a kid $12 an hour to put them on by hand on a roller. Of course this isn't the case everywhere, but at the really small guys it is.

Obviously, economies of scale apply in every facet of this, but the bigger the brewery, the less of the mystique behind the brand. You think Sam Adams could have a can release and have a line around the block charging $8 a can? Nope. But the guy on a 15bbl located in a shopping mall with far less overhead can. The trick is, how do you keep that mystique as you scale up?

The margins are tighter than you might think on these breweries is my point. I doubt many of them are laughing their way to the bank, and all it takes is a downturn or change in the market and you'll see the ones who didn't do their homework start to get filtered out.

And those cans from said brewery (strip mall) are starting to sit around longer lately. Probably more a reflection of the time of year but we'll see. One ($22/4pack) is approaching 30 days on the shelf. I've found them to really start to drop off after 60 days.

One brewery that appears to be printing money from the haze craze is Monkish. Those guys do at least 1-2 can releases per week and are charging $22-$24 per 4pack. They sell out consistently within a few hours. They have been mostly doing 15bbl runs but also just jumped up to occasional 30bbl releases as well. So $20k-$50k+ per week in can sales alone. On top of that they charge $28 growler fill. When I was there in August, there was a long wait with a ticket system. Easily filled 60 of them in a short time on top of everyone queuing up to drop $7-$8 for pours. Cha-ching!

[dookeyXXX]

... One ($22/4pack) is approaching 30 days on the shelf...

One of the NorCal breweries I dig (Hen House in Santa Rosa) prints the following on their cans:

"...These cans are perishable and this beer expires in 28 days. Do not save, drink now. Like right now. Why are you still reading, you're wasting time! Hop aromatics start to fade the moment beer is packaged and heat speeds up the process. So stop waming up this can and drink the beer!"

Another local brewery I frequent when I get down to the Bay Area, Temescal, one of their bartenders told me not to exceed 3 months and even that was pushing it. I have noticed cans I've purchased and drunk a few immediately and then the others a few weeks later change their taste profile after those few weeks. So I've attempted to stick by the 28 days (1-month) rule as much as possible.

[HankScorpio]

This is not what I expected. IPA with hibiscus. More sweet than hoppy, color is little purpleish. Had a nice refreshing taste, drinks like a 4-5%er but is 7% ABV. I’ll buy it again, no doubt.


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[Self Jupiter]

^Four Quarters brews one of those. Me like.

[Peruvian]

[Doremite]

What do you think?

[Peruvian]

What do you think?

It’s delicious. I’ve had it many times and always enjoy it.

[retirwntm]

I don’t know about him but being in Portland today I approve. It’s very drinkable especially in front of poutine at duck fat.


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[Doremite]

It’s delicious. I’ve had it many times and always enjoy it.

Was just curious as I’ve had a few times myself. Have really enjoyed it on tap but had a couple so so can experiences. I am convinced BB is way over hyped but maybe I am just cranky or setting my bar at knee buckling greatness. It’s just beer =)

[prsboogie]

Was just curious as I’ve had a few times myself. Have really enjoyed it on tap but had a couple so so can experiences. I am convinced BB is way over hyped but maybe I am just cranky or setting my bar at knee buckling greatness. It’s just beer =)

Have to say you might be being a little picky on this one. I haven't had a bad or not great Subby in cans.

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[Peruvian]

I don’t know about him but being in Portland today I approve. It’s very drinkable especially in front of poutine at duck fat.


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We had lunch at Duckfat. I had the original milkshake instead of a beer. It was a proper choice.

[retirwntm]

Well played! I hope you went outside and did a thousand sit ups afterwards [emoji6]


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[Doremite]

Have to say you might be being a little picky on this one. I haven't had a bad or not great Subby in cans.

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Likely guilty as charged. Last time I had it I was drinking/sharing lots of different beers and styles so my pallet may just have been in a tizzy. The more hyped a brewery is the more critical I tend to be as well. By no means would I say Substance is a bad beer.

[jackstraw]

Likely guilty as charged. Last time I had it I was drinking/sharing lots of different beers and styles so my pallet may just have been in a tizzy. The more hyped a brewery is the more critical I tend to be as well. By no means would I say Substance is a bad beer.

Yeah, it's their daily driver. It's solid, but there are many better ones out there including their Swish.

This was ok...but by the time I had 4oz left it was really good! Funny how that works sometimes.

Picked up some mixed holiday cheer with that one