the paths presneted to us in life

[Snow Dog]

Ah grasshopper,
your journey through life will have many careers. You've completed your schooling and now it's time to be an engineer. That will pay the bills and allow you to continue your passion for photography. Life is about progression so use your corporate life to do corporate photography -- executives love to have their picture taken. Become a commercial photographer and use that to finance the photography you're passionate about.

You will always have two careers -- the one that pays the bills and the one that feeds the soul.

[Greydon Clark]

Take a risk and open the shop. Win or lose it will be a better experience than working for the man.

[Tippster]

2 words:

PLASTIC CAMERAS.

You'll own the world.



But seriously - I'd work in the field I studied...for a while, at least. You can keep up the shooting on your own time (weekends/vacations) whilst paying off those pesky loans. Believe me when I tell you that you do NOT want to default on those fuckers - it took me 10 years to finally get that crap off my credit rating!

Once you're free & clear of your financial leashes you can re-evaluate what you want to do. Don't forget that opening your own business is hard - most fail. You'll sink a lot of money into it, and even more time/blood/sweat/tears. You don't want prior financial burdens making your life that much harder. I'm not trying to discourage you; like everyone else who posted in this thread I think you're truly talented and have the possibility to make a career of photography. You also seem to be a realist and recognize that the field is VERY small to do what you do and make a comfortable living.

My wife owns her own residential remodeling business. It took us 5 years to get it to where it is today, and would have been impossible without my salary. (Hey - there's an idea - find a nice Cougar to finance your dream!) The upshod of her running her own business is that I get to take vacations alone all the time. I work for a great company that'll give me 4 weeks paid - she will not take off more than 2 weeks a year. She also works MUCH more than the standard 8 hour day.

And who knows - you might actually LIKE being a plastics engineer. You could invent the perfect swizzle stick. I'd buy it.

[powstash]

Wow, Freshies, your tale is very enlightening.

Aren't there plasitc engineers at Black Diamond? My buddy is an engineer who works at Black Diamond, and his existance certainly isn't that of the office space cube world that most speak of. Indeed he works, and hard. But the guy has mad quantities of gear, dawn patrols all the time for pow, climbs a ton, and works with one of the kewlist companies in the industry. Seems like a budding engineer with a passion for photography (and great tallent) could become a PT peon at a place like that, earn some $$ and have more than enough good athletes at his becon call to be able to shoot year round outdoor photos and make it in either direction.

Just my $.02.

[homerjay]

I'm an engineer and I'll tell you right now:

Don't do it. The further you get into corporate whore-dom, the harder it is to get out.

[powstash]

Originally posted by SheRa
You have an obligation to all of us to stay with it.

I call horseshit! (no offense intended to you SheRa) The way I see it, he's got an obligation to himself (and his school debt).

[tjb]

I'm an engineer and after 8 years out of college all I want to do is be a ski-bum or photographer dude etc.

I'm glad I've got some work experience under my belt though as it is tough completing with keen guys straight out of college who are willing to make the company their life.

MtBakerSkier, your work rocks btw ....

[shera]

Grant, you make the most beautiful ski pictures I have ever seen. You have an obligation to all of us to stay with it.

Maybe I shouldn't talk - this is coming from someone that left the Office Space after many, many years of TPS reports. I'd just hate to see you as a rat in a cage.

The camera shop in Breck does pretty well, I think. They take care of video stuff as well. If you sell calendars and tourist ski town goodies like postcards and whatever to supplement and you're on the main little ski town strip I think it would work.

If you've got a low interest rate on your student loans, you might think about forbearance, or whatever they call it when you put off paying...

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[mtbakerskier]

Thanks for all of the advice. Its a very tough decision, my heart tells me to open the shop, but my mind says, enter corprate whoredom and make some $$$$ first. Still I dont know, I got a idea for a shop that is different than the run of the mill camera / devloping shops, so it will either make it big or make me poor beyond poor. Plus can a college town really support a 4th shop??? All of the ???????????? sure makes it tought, but hey isnt the ????????? in life what makes are live so intersting anyways?

[Woodsy]

Grant,
1st, your photos in the new Couliour are freaking awesome,

2nd, jumping at your dream & all is a wonderful experience, but can be consuming. Running your own place will become a passion on par with skiing & shooting. If your photos are any indication, you dont do anything 1/2 way. If you are running a shop, you will be three ALOT. I say this from the experience of finally achieving my dream & skiing less than I did as a downtown corp whore.
Factor this in.


I would work p/t in your field, make some $$. Plastics engineering can be lucrative, no?

you can work for Huntsman in UT and finally do some real skiing! ( although our photog market is a bit full....)

[mtbakerskier]

Originally posted by Woodsy
Grant,
1st, your photos in the new Couliour are freaking awesome,

Do tell more, I havnet even seen it yet. Hopefully it arives today

[optics]

Use your skills/knowledge to differentiate yourself from a run of the mill camera shop. Widely-available product won't keep anyone afloat these days by itself.

Maybe offer services which improve photo jong's pics. Simple p-shop/cropping work could seem like magic to the average consumer, and perceived value is a great thing.

With the way all retail is headed, the only way to stay afloat with an actual physical shop presence is to have your service make it exceptional.

Your photos are great. Good luck.

[joshbu]

Shoot the hostage.










What? Somebody had to say it.

[Snow Dog]

The people I know with their own shops are all shop slaves. It takes an enormous time commitment and they can't afford to hire trustworthy people to mind the store while they're off playing. I understand the be-your-own-boss desire -- just don't underestimate the time it will suck out of you. (On the other hand if you have a partner then you can split the work.)

Originally posted by homerjay
I'm an engineer and I'll tell you right now:

Don't do it. The further you get into corporate whore-dom, the harder it is to get out.

You're just doing it wrong.

I have worked at tech companies that very people friendly. You're not always locked in a box. As long as the project was on schedule I was free to take off whenever.

[release]

One thing that I have learned is that there are certain qualities that a self-employed person has to have and one of these is being a "people person". Whether you like it or not, you have to take a good look at yourself and see if you really know how to get along with people.

There are plenty of talented and smart people out there who think they can rule the world, but they just don't get it when it comes to managing a business. Chances are you may have had only one class of Professional Practice in your college ciriculum. I work with a lot of engineers and they are mostly smart and can do the job, but they could never run there own practice because their people skills are terrible. If you are a "people person" then your opportunities are endless. If you can satisfy customers, train employees, and manage employees then your dreams can become reality. One of the most exciting parts of being self-employed is watching your dream and vision grow. If you have the qualities to be succesful then you may find yourself exceeding your wildest expectations.

Have a vision and goals, but be prepared to change directions when something comes your way. You may find yourself taking wedding photos, but if you can hire good photographers to do this and manage them well, then you can potentially minimize your interaction and time with these customers yet still reap the financial rewards. I do not know much about the photography business, but when it comes to the basics most all businesses have the same basic principals for success. When you refer to having your own shop, I guess you are coming at the business from the retail side which has to be a tough market, but if you know your stuff (and again, can train and manage employees) then I believe you will be able to find a market for customers who want good service. You cannot compete with Wal-Mart so don't try. On the other hand, you can learn a lot from Wal-Mart. Sam Walton had three basic beliefs which can guide any business to success: 1. Respect for the individual. 2. Service to the customer. 3. Strive for excellence. If you are smart enough to keep these simple yet broad notions in mind then success in business is attainable. However, as mentioned never expect it to be easy.

Again, look inside yourself and reflect on your experiences thus far. If you have found yourself getting along with your clients, meeting deadlines, returning phone calls promptly, getting the proper information out, making minimum errors, doing quality work, etc. then that is a good sign. I know that if there is a profession where rude and arrogant people can be successful, it is in the art industry, but even then there are only a few artists who are so gifted that they can be assholes and still sell their artworks.

Be smart, work hard, learn from others, read about the business, and go for it. Keep your options open. If you are young now is the time to do it.

[summit]

Seriously, if you haven't noticed a lot of camera shops are going under because of digital and because they can't compete with Wally World, B&H/Adorama/CWO and ebay. That sounds like a loosing proposition.

OTOH you already know the pay scale for a pro ski shooter. The handfull that I know personally barely scrape, sleeze themselves out (use people over, "photo for food, lodging, and pass" kinda stuff and compromise their photographic soul for the $$$) etc, or simply work it as a side thing to their "real" job. You arleady know that. OTOH, you have some of the best images I've seen so you could be one of the few, but you'll never get out of debt doing it I don't think. But you know all that.

I think the person who said work a flexible engineering job for a few years to pay stuff off while continuing to build your photo career during that time is the way to go. Then you can fly either way.

[Ski Beaver]

Originally posted by homerjay
I'm an [Insert sensible career option here] and I'll tell you right now:

Don't do it. The further you get into corporate whore-dom, the harder it is to get out.

I am beginning to find this out now.

In an ideal world I would leave the finance industry, drive my Dad's taxi for 6 months of the year and then take off and ski-bum / travel the other 6 months of the year.

[Snow Dog]

Originally posted by Ski Beaver
I am beginning to find this out now.

In an ideal world I would leave the finance industry, drive my Dad's taxi for 6 months of the year and then take off and ski-bum / travel the other 6 months of the year.

On the other hand, I met a finance guy on top of a mountain last summer. He retired at 38 and spends his days hiking and biking and boating...

[Ski Beaver]

15 years to go then.

[mtbakerskier]

Originally posted by Summit
Seriously, if you haven't noticed a lot of camera shops are going under because of digital and because they can't compete with Wally World, B&H/Adorama/CWO and ebay. That sounds like a loosing proposition.

OTOH you already know the pay scale for a pro ski shooter. The handfull that I know personally barely scrape, sleeze themselves out (use people over, "photo for food, lodging, and pass" kinda stuff and compromise their photographic soul for the $$$) etc, or simply work it as a side thing to their "real" job. You arleady know that. OTOH, you have some of the best images I've seen so you could be one of the few, but you'll never get out of debt doing it I don't think. But you know all that.

I think the person who said work a flexible engineering job for a few years to pay stuff off while continuing to build your photo career during that time is the way to go. Then you can fly either way.

Ive worked at / manageda very high end privately owned camera shop for 7 years so i knwo the camera / photo retail business inside and outm, and i know hwat it takes to make it be successfull without directly competing agaisnt ebay, bh and the box stores, but i also know hte investment and risk involved, wich only complicates the matter. Do I really want to take on the risk, in order to have hte possiblilty of greater scucess than i would working as a corprate whore.

[midget]

Originally posted by mtbakerskier
Ive worked at / manageda very high end privately owned camera shop for 7 years so i knwo the camera / photo retail business inside and outm, and i know hwat it takes to make it be successfull without directly competing agaisnt ebay, bh and the box stores, but i also know hte investment and risk involved, wich only complicates the matter. Do I really want to take on the risk, in order to have hte possiblilty of greater scucess than i would working as a corprate whore.

Sounds like you have your answer then.

Here's an advantage I think you will have. You are now an established name in the ski industry....people will want to come in and buy from a pro.....a real pro in what joe gaper sees as a very glamourous biz. Most shops don't have that. They have someone there that might take HS senior portraits at best. Of course yer going to get those that pick your brain then buy on ebay, but with your experience in that shop you've been in can do it for you......

Have you looked for an investor to partner with???

[Lynx]

a) with school debt, i think i would be tempted to find the most flexible-houred (is that a word?) engineering job possible, and do that for a little while simultaneously continuing to shoot and ski as much as possible while paying off your debt. (i know you mentioned a specific job once that was possibly offering that....didn't you say you might even get to ski MORE?)

b) most of my friends are engineers who have gone out and gotten real jobs. serious jobs. or they are non engineers who have gone out and gotten real jobs, or they are still in school, be it under-grad or grad school pursuing some lucrative "real job". a real serious job. as one who has currently chosen the path of the "starving-artist-type" i found myself questioning whether i too should step up to the plate and stop playing around and having so much fun and go out and get a real..serious...job. so i can stop making excuses for shooting cheesy mountain portraits last season or aspiring to wait tables this season.

c) i am currently visiting my best friend from college.....in the mojave desert. i met her through skiing....and she now lives in the mojave . HOWEVER, she works for NASA. sounds pretty cool, right? she has health insurance, and enough income to pay off her school debt, and buy a new car, and ski at mammoth every weekend come winter. but she recently told me she has decided to quit her job and take a break from engineering. she told me she even envied my position. ME!? while i am very lucky that i do not have any school debts to pay off....i am now in more debt with my credit card and money i have borrowed from the good old bank of mom and dad than i care to let on. how does anyone envy that? i have no health insurance and my dream job this winter is waiting tables at night. dream job- waiting tables. envious of me? WOW, kind of an eye opener. here i thought any engineer would look down on any bum..... but maybe i just grew up around too many bitches in CT.

d) anywho.....i love life. i am broke. and i love it. for a while i lost sight of how great it was to spend my entire summer on a mountain and not in a cubicle, but when i come back to my senses i know it ruled and i am super lucky to have that experience. and i realize just HOW MUCH i LOVE to pick up my camera and shoot and create something new.

ok....so now that i'm done writing all that....i guess i am just trying to say that i'm a firm believer in being happy and making the life choices that will make you the most happy. (which i could have probly said with out writing the short novel above, but i'm not deleting it now so suck it up) although i am also one of those practical yet idealistic types that would suggest trying to get the engineering job with the super flex time so you can pay off the debt....so it's not hovering and bothering you, which can also contribute significantly to happiness.

[Xover]

Originally posted by Bum Z
and engineers don't ski a lot.

I am more than happy with the amount of days I've gotten in the past few years

Plus, Harpo works more than all of us, skis less and still goes bigger and faster than all of us except DTM. What you say now Z??

GG,

My aged wisdom would be to work a few years as an engineer, get the school debt paid off, bank alot cause you're gonna need it to start the shop, freelance on the side as much as you can until then and in meantime get all your ducks in a row and then go for it when the time and finances are right.

[shera]

Originally posted by powstash
I call horseshit! (no offense intended to you SheRa) The way I see it, he's got an obligation to himself (and his school debt).

Non taken. But you don't see any obligation to skiing and the depiction of it?

Lynx, I liked your post a lot.

I'm in the middle of looking for a job up here in Summit County. As many of you know, I've been bumming for over a year now after writing environmental software in the big city for many, many years.

And I've got a chance to help run a computer store up here. We're talking management and money in the high country, opportunities that are few and far between. But I simply can't buy into an 80 hour per week gig - I might as well go back to Denver. So I am trying to very carefully discuss skiing and scheduling and see if there is some compromise we can come to. I'd like to have the job, but I'm more than prepared to wait tables at night so I can ski. That's my priority.

[Hicks]

Originally posted by The AD
I would consider taking an engineering job for a few years to get on a good financial footing, then think about opening that camera store.

One thing you might be mistaken about is having MORE flexibility by owning your own business. Yes, since you're the boss technically you can set your own hours, schedule vacations when you want, etc. But remember a lot of business owners have to put in lots of hours. You may end up getting more skiing in as an engineer.

Word!

I got both - an engineering degree and stuck with an own business.

First: make sure to clear your debts up front with a job you can get that done.
Second: use your job to fund some money to enable you looking around and decide whether to change (with an own business you described or not) - with more overall experience decisions always become more certain to match your own real needs.
Third: decide yourself what's best for you without listening too much to others (particulary from this board - you'll always wish you would be skiing more anyways).