I knew this campaign would get ugly...

[natty dread]

but this is almost beyond belief. Cheney has really lost it this time. It's one thing for AWOL Shrub--did anyone see 60 minutes tonight?-- to refuse to denounce the swift boat veterans for "truth" ad (as mccain asked him to do); it's incredible for Cheney to suggest that a vote for Kerry is a vote for terrorism.


Cheney Spits Toads
By MAUREEN DOWD

Published: September 9, 2004

WASHINGTON — George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have always used the president's father as a reverse lodestar. In 1992, the senior Mr. Bush wooed the voters with "Message: I care.'' So this week, Mr. Cheney wooed the voters with, Message: You die.

The terrible beauty of its simplicity grows on you. It is a sign of the dark, macho, paranoid vice president's restraint that he didn't really take it to its emotionally satisfying conclusion: Message: Vote for us or we'll kill you.

Without Zell Miller around to out-crazy him, and unplugged after a convention that tried to "humanize'' him with grandchildren, horses and wifely anecdotes about his inability to dance the twist, Mr. Cheney is back as Terrifier in Chief.

He finally simply spit out what the Bush team has been more subtly trying to convey for months: A vote for John Kerry is a vote for the terrorists.

"Because if we make the wrong choice,'' Mr. Cheney said in Des Moines in that calm baritone, "then the danger is that we'll get hit again. That we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind-set if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts, and that we're not really at war.''

These guys figure, hey, these scare tactics worked in building support for the Iraq war, maybe they can work in tearing down support for John Kerry. They linked Saddam with terrorism and cowed the Democrats (including Mr. Kerry, who has never been able to make the case against the Bush administration's trompe l'oeil casus belli) and fooled the country into going along with their trumped-up war. So why not link Mr. Kerry with terrorism and cow the voters into sticking with the White House they've got?

It's like that fairy tale where vipers and toads jump out of the mouth of the accursed mean little girl when she tries to speak. Every time Mr. Cheney opens his mouth, vermin leap out.

The vice president and president did not even mention Osama at the convention because of the inconvenient fact that the fiend is still out there, plotting. Yet they denigrate Mr. Kerry as too weak to battle Osama, and treat him as a greater threat.

Mr. Cheney implies that John Kerry couldn't protect us from an attack like 9/11, blithely ignoring the fact that he and President Bush didn't protect us from the real 9/11. Think of what brass-knuckled Republicans could have made of a 9/11 tape of an uncertain Democratic president giving a shaky statement that looked like a hostage tape and flying randomly from air base to air base, as the veep ordered that planes be shot down.

Mr. Cheney warns against falling back "into the pre-9/11 mind-set,'' when, in fact, the Bush team's pre-9/11 mind-set was all about being stuck in the cold war and reviving "Star Wars" - which doesn't work and is useless against terrorist tactics. The Bush crowd played down terrorism because Bill Clinton and Sandy Berger had told their successors that Osama was a priority, and the Bushies scorned all things Clinton. The president shrugged off intelligence briefings with such headlines as "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States'' because there was brush to be cleared and unaffordable tax-cutting to be done.

After the blue-ribbon graybeards declared the Bush administration's pumped-up W.M.D. claims and Saddam-9/11 links bogus, the White House went into a defensive crouch - especially the man in the undisclosed bunker, who had veered wildly between overly pessimistic predictions of Saddam's nukes and overly optimistic predictions of grateful Iraqis with flowers and chocolates.

For a time, it seemed that Americans were realizing they'd been flimflammed by the Bushies. But at the convention, the swaggering Bush juggernaut brazenly went back to boasting about its pre-emption doctrine, tracing imaginary connections between 9/11 and Saddam, and calling all our foes terrorists.

Why should the same group that managed to paint a flextime guardsman as a heroic commander - and a war hero as a war criminal - bother rebutting or engaging with critics?

As the deaths of American men and women fighting in Iraq topped 1,000, and with insurgents controlling parts of central Iraq, the White House trotted out the same old discredited line, assuming it can wear - and scare - everyone down by November.

[trainnvain]

Excuse my forgetfulness, but who fills in when the VP gets assasinated?

House speaker?

[TJ.Brk]

Well Natty atleast GW isn't enshrined as a national hero in a communist country like Kerry is.

Ladies and gentleman we now return you to your: "TGR democratic party message board"



Somebody please post some skiing stoke

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

natty -- if yer still in here, get ye arse over to and through the secret door. could use your comments / feedback on some schtuff (the top thread).

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by trainnvain
Excuse my forgetfulness, but who fills in when the VP gets assasinated?

House speaker?

Chain of Presidency
1.Pres
2.VP
3. Speaker of the house
4. President Protem of the Senate

[Droopy]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Well Natty atleast GW isn't enshrined as a national hero in a communist country like Kerry is.

Ladies and gentleman we now return you to your: "TGR democratic party message board"



Somebody please post some skiing stoke

you say that like communisim is evil, open your eyes and see that it is only an idea that has been carried out in a bad way.


P.S. me = drunk

[trainnvain]

Originally posted by Droopy
you say that like communisim is evil, open your eyes and see that it is only an idea that has been carried out in a bad way.


P.S. me = drunk

Yep, on paper it's a beautiful thing. Add the human element and urges and it's doomed. It can be carried out in very small controlled states, but a whole governing body of a country, doubtful forever.

Thanks TJ, that's what I thought.

[natty dread]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Well Natty atleast GW isn't enshrined as a national hero in a communist country like Kerry is.
Ladies and gentleman we now return you to your: "TGR democratic party message board"
Somebody please post some skiing stoke

What does your above "point" have to do with Cheney equating voting for Kerry with voting for terrorists TJ? Your obtuseness/inability to argue a point are an endless source of amusement--please keep it up.

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by natty dread
Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Well Natty atleast GW isn't enshrined as a national hero in a communist country like Kerry is.
Ladies and gentleman we now return you to your: "TGR democratic party message board"
Somebody please post some skiing stoke

What does your above "point" have to do with Cheney equating voting for Kerry with voting for terrorists TJ? Your obtuseness/inability to argue a point are an endless source of amusement--please keep it up.

Ok I will bite a bit on this topic. Now back in the early 70's Kerry testifide before congress telling all how we Soldeirs, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen" fighting in harms way for freedom: "committed genocide, raised villages, raped women and children, mutilated bodies beyond recognition, etc"
. It was a great moral booster to the NVA. It speared them on. After Kerry's testimony before congress the NVA pushed for more American POW's to renounce their government like Kerry the hero did before our own US Gov't.

Now these men that kept the faith that kerry forgot in POW camps. Most never made it home because they refused to sign a document that had Kerry's words on it from his testimony before congress. Because they wouldn't tell lies like kerry did (Kerry admitted later on that he never saw any of those things he testifide under "OATH" about before congress) He was just going by somebody else's story.

You can't really understand this Natty. I wish you could. But you've never put on the uniform. When it all boils down to it. It comes down to keeping the faith. It's is going to get worse in this war on terror. Kerry sold his own country men out at one time when they needed him the most. 4 months of service in Vietnam be damned. What he did afterward. Well I'm telling you strait up that not one swinging dick/tit in the USA armed forces supports him.

Frankly. Well we all feel he sold us out once. His action caused for many to be tortured to death because they wouldn't sign a document that had the words, which John Kerry spoke at a congressional hearing calling us murders, and renouncing our gov't.

Those men died keeping the faith because they stood up for America and would not sign the document including Kerrys testimony.

So sit behind your desk. Enjoy your comfort. Be glad for it. But would you honestly vote for someone that purposefully went out to harm US service personel, knowing that his testimony would caused American deaths in POW camps because they would not sign the: "Kerry Doc", after they were brutally tortured to death. And don't give me some song and dance how times have changed. Kerry is the Manchurian Candidate. He sold us out once. He'll for sure do it again.

And you expect us to trust him now. He talks US defense but he voted against even giving body armor to our people in harms way now. Body armor that does save USA lives.
"Sorry mam. But if your son would have been supplied with the body armor Pres Bush asked for, that Sen Kerry voted against every time military bills came to the Senate. Well that 7.62 Ak round wouldn't have entered his chest cavity spinning around tearing out all of his heart and lungs.

We are at WAR. If you like it or not we are at WAR. Tell ya what. Get ahold of the Veterans Administration. Ask them the link to get the names of Vietnam POW prisoners that died after Kerry testimony before Congress. Then go visit the wall.

[White Chocolate]

The ONLY thing scarier than our current administration is that fact that so many voters in our country support it And people wonder why other countries and groups don't care for us

Are there any single canadian females around? I live close and am willing to move

[White Chocolate]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Ok I will bite a bit on this topic. Now back in the early 70's Kerry testifide before congress telling all how we "Soldeirs, Marines, Sailors, and Airmen" fighting in harms way for free. It was a great moral booster to the NVA. It speared them on. After Kerry's testimony before congress the NVA pushed for more American POW's to renounce their government like Kerry the hero did.

Now these men that kept the faith that kerry forgot. Most never made it home because they refused to sign a document that had Kerry's words on it from his testimony before congress. Because they wouldn't tell lies like kerry did (Kerry admitted later on that he never saw any of those things he testifide under "OATH" about before congress) He was just going by somebody else's story.

You can't really understand this Natty. I wish you could. But you've never put on the uniform. When it all boils down to it. It comes down to keeping the faith. It's is going to get worse in this war on terror. Kerry sold his own country men out at one time when they needed him the most. 4 months of service in Vietnam be damned. What he did afterward. Well I'm telling you strait up that not one swinging dick/tit in the USA armed forces supports him.

Frankly. Well we all feel he sold us out once. His action caused for many to be tortured to death because they wouldn't sign a document that had the words, which John Kerry spoke at a congressional heary calling us murders, and renouncing our gov't.

Those men died keeping the faith because they stood up for America and would not sign the document including Kerrys testimony.

So sit behind your desk. Enjoy your comfort. Be glad for it. But would you honestly vote for someone that purposefully went out to harm US service personel, knowing that his testimony would caused American deaths in POW camps because they would not sign the: "Kerry Doc".

And you expect us to trust him now. Enjoy your comfort

How many people have been tortured and killed because of the actions of bush and cheney?

Also, how are you enjoying our RECORD $420 billion dollar deficit? Although it is the democrats fault right?

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by White Chocolate
How many people have been tortured and killed because of the actions of bush and cheney?

Also, how are you enjoying our RECORD $420 billion dollar deficit? Although it is the democrats fault right?

Why don't you ask the people that died on 9-11. Better yet. Ask the mothers and fathers of the children that were murdered in Russia a few days ago.

I can handle a deficit if we are keeping children safe. Don't mind paying for children to be safe one little bit. It's you don't GASchit?

[White Chocolate]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Better yet. Ask the mothers and fathers of the children that were murdered in Russia a few days ago.

Uh, what does a group of people that have been fighting for independence for years in Russia have to do with our current political situation?

Also, is our deficit keeping us safe? Because it seems to me that there is A LOT of fear about another terrorist attack hitting our country. That money isn't doing shit if people are dying

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by White Chocolate
Uh, what does a group of people that have been fighting for independence for years in Russia have to do with our current political situation?

Well there is a big difference fighting for freedom and just terroristic murder.

Or didn't you notice those so called independence fighters in Russia murdering all those women and children in those 2 planes

Or murdering all those children in a school. Ya that's fighting for independence "Hey lets go murder a bunch of kids on the first day of school so we can rule our own country." Ya murdering innocents kids is fighting for freedom all right.

[Game Over]

T.J. you make me laugh.

[White Chocolate]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Or murdering all those children in a school. Ya that's fighting for independence "Hey lets go murder a bunch of kids on the first day of school so we can rule our own country." Ya murdering innocents kids is fighting for freedom all right.

I take it you are not familiar with the situation in Chechnya? I am NOT condoning this terrorist act in ANY way, but the russians have killed hundereds of thousands of chechens over the years, many i'm sure who were not soldiers.

What does any of this have to do with john kerry taking a stand agaist further military actions in vietnam?

[chippersmullet]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk

You can't really understand this Natty. I wish you could. But you've never put on the uniform. When it all boils down to it. It comes down to keeping the faith.

Kerry is the Manchurian Candidate. He sold us out once. He'll for sure do it again.

And you expect us to trust him now.

Where were GWB and Dick when Vietnam was happening? Who has consistently lied to you - the American people - about Iraq and the reasons for going to war there amongst other things?

I mean, it does seem a bit weird that you are willing to slag Kerry off for stuff he did all that time ago having been there and then stick up for Bush who got out of service due thanks to his Dad and has done an awful lot of lying since he got into power.

[Stu Gotz]

T.J. -

Have you actually read Kerry's testimony before congress?
The basis of Kerry's testimony is that the policy of the Vietnam War was killing America's young and causing soliders to commit atrocities for a cause that was not just. Kerry was not turning on his fellow soldiers but calling out for America to bring home its sons and daughters from a hellish place where they did not belong.

"Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to dies in Vietnam? How do ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

[DaveTV]

Typical NEO-CON tactics of spin, scare, dance, dodge and change the subject..

[Canuk]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Sounds strangely familiar....does this ring a bell with anyone else?



quietly leaving this debate now...

[jayfrizzo]

TJ, don't you live in Canada?

[tuffy109]

Originally posted by jayfrizzo
TJ, don't you live in Canada?

no, he only plays softball there.

[jayfrizzo]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
But you've never put on the uniform.

Neither has Bush or Cheney.

[jayfrizzo]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Well I'm telling you strait up that not one swinging dick/tit in the USA armed forces supports him.

My father-in-law, a Marine, supports him. Hoo-rah, motherfucker.

And what's with this swinging dick/tit lingo? Don't they take away your jargon book when you leave the forces?

[Grange]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Well I'm telling you strait up that not one swinging dick/tit in the USA armed forces supports him.

Frankly. Well we all feel he sold us out once.

He sold us out once. He'll for sure do it again.

Give me a break. There are lots of armed forces personnel out there that support Kerry. Both current and past veterans. My father who served a tour in Vietnam is without a doubt more pissed at Cheney, who dodged Vietnam with 5 deferments, and Bush who used his connections to get into the ANG, which was basically just another way to avoiding Vietnam, than Kerry for his statements about the atrocities committed by US soldiers. I do believe that there were only a small number (and I stress small) of soldiers that commited the atrocities in Vietnam.

So by using your logic that all armed forces personnel are against Kerry for talking about atrocities that a small number of soldiers commited they must also be against Rumsfield for speaking out about the Abu Garib Prision scandal. I bet those acts also have an affect on the abuses being commited against our soldiers over seas.

I look at the soldiers who commited those acts in Vietnam the same way I look at the soldier who commited the acts in Abu Garib Prision in Iraq, shameful. They put a stain on the rest of the soldiers who are serving honorably.