Euro mags- jong europe question

[snowfire]

So I was planning a trip to Europe for the month of May, since it was the only month I have off. Unfortunately, circumstances have changed and I now find myself having to take a class in the spring (more fuckin' prerequisites).

So, the only time I have a month free in the next four years is approximately Dec 20-Jan 20. I was going to backpack in May, and also look for possible places to reside, but I figure skiing would be allright too. The problem is, if I get over there and the skiing sucks the whole time... that would suck.

So, I know none of us can predict the weather, but what is it generally like in different areas of Europe (specifically france, italy, austria and switzerland) in that month late Dec to late Jan? I just need something to go off of. Any suggestions of specific mountains to hit during that time? I searched for "Europe- Christmas" but all I came up with was a Punani drunk post.

gracias!

[Telepath]

Most likely you'll get very good skiing somewhere. Decide on what region as late as possible as only certain regions may be getting hammered while others can be pretty dry. By mid-October rain patterns and early snow normally hints pretty well towards what will be good and what won't.

If you need to book a flight now just book to some large airport close to the Alps; Milan/Turin, Geneva or Lyon work great. Paris ain't too much trouble, same goes for Zurich. When you get to said airport it's pretty straightforward to get to whatever region/resort you want.

Over the last eight full seasons spent in the alps (except for a us visit last winter) December 2000 was my best month ever with December 2002 being up there among the best five. Last December was really good too. December 1998 was completely dry; so was December 2001. 2001/2002 was a terrible year across the Alps except for western Austria but late 1998 was great in the northern Alps (well, pretty much anywhere exceept our valley). Just don't make specific plans too early and you'll be more than ok.

[Hicks]

Late December sucks everywhere due to the peak holidays (lots of crowds, overpricing). From second week in January this is gonna change. So if you can try to push your trip behind for about two weeks, this time is a lot more enjoyable.

On an average basis the northern Alps around the Arlberg region have the best snow coverage in the Alps at that time (it snows a lot there, I had a blast with tons of freshies last January) but again that's statistics. My two cents:
Wait till early December before you make your final decision depending on best snow conditions and post again for some help on lodging - surely anyone here can be of assistance for you depending on where you finally want to go. Budget for a car to get around and stay flexible + eventually be willing to take a short morning drive into a resort in exchange for affordable lodging. Besides the hubs telepath mentioned Munich is an option too but avoid Paris if you don't plan to sightsee the city (often delayed connections + French workers love to go on strike). Don't overfocus just on the big resorts, sometimes the smaller areas rock especially when it comes down to beating the crows (let us know if you need more suggestions on those).

Hope that helps a bit.

[supercastor]

Not much to add...

I hate to say that, but La Gr*** may be a good bet for a start (end of december). Usually it does get less crowded than classic french resorts during the holidays.

You can also be pretty sure to have good snow in the upper Tarentaise valley (Tignes, Courchevel), or even in Les Arcs/La Plagne.

Finally, I would try Central Alps, far into switzerland or Austria. And you can't go wrong with Chamonix, too. Argh

[TeleAl]

My 2 cents:
Find a place with a glacier. If nothing else, you will be skiing. Remember, it is preseason in the Alps. Glacier skiing is not the best, I know, but it is skiing. You have one month, some 30 days. If you wish to ski all 30, and I hope you do, then this is a solution. Should the snow fall somewhere, go there.

Saas Fee and Zermatt have a glacier each. As for Saas Fee and Zermatt, should the snow fall there, you scored. Both are excellent resorts. Over the other side of Zermatt is Cervina (you pay extra). One weekend last year it scored while Zermatt suffered. We went to Cervina for a day of waist deep. Well worth it.

Accommodation in Saas Fee should be a bomb shelter. Smelly, dark, and cheap (by Swiss standards). The Hotel Derby has one, 35 CHF/night, as does a bakery and another hotel (names if you need them...I need to search).

Zermatt has 2 hostels to note. One is the government hostel, very nice, good food, clean. It runs about 50 CHF/night (check that). Not cheap. The other is a private one, the Matterhorn Hostel (or something like that). Not as nice, not as expensive, not as clean, and skip the breakfast opting for store bought food. More like 30 CHF/night (check that too). Bums like me stay there when on budget.

Check out train pass options in Switzerland. You might find a good deal for a month. The 1/2 price pass is a good one. I think it comes with first and last ride free (i.e. from and to the airport). Full price is ridiculous here.

I agree with everyone's input so far.

TelePath makes goods points. But TelePath, where were you in Dec '98? We were piled high with snow here Swiss French Alps! I remember on 18 December skiing waist deep at Isenau (next to Les Diablerets), a small resort that was the only one open near us in the early season during the week. I agree with what you're saying, some places get hammered, while others might be dry. Seems '98 was one of them. And our November was spectacular! However, I also remember rain to over 2200m sometime after that 18 Dec storm.

All hail Hicks on his French strike point. I was gonna point that out. Someone will be threatening strike, and it might affect travel.

The small resorts are the places to be during the holidays. If you find your way near me (Leysin), let me know and I can offer some small resort ideas. Ones that kick ass without the lift lines and for a cheap ticket. Of course weather will be the deciding factor early on.

Think 30/30!

[bad_roo]

Me and Mrs Roo are going to be in La Grave with Mulletizer and friends from 26th December through to the 31st so if you guys are about it'd be fun to show you around.

[verbier61]

mmmmh prolly the longer thread about this was
here
but you might help us by indicating your priorities. Something like striking BC over striking after ski, cheap over uncrowded, etc.

[Telepath]

Originally posted by TeleAl
But TelePath, where were you in Dec '98? We were piled high with snow here Swiss French Alps

Guisane Valley, i.e. Serre Chvalier. Alpe d*Huez, Les2Alpes and La Grave were also dry at the time. I spent quite a bit of time commuting via Italy to Orelle and the tram up to Val Thorens. December 98 was one of those times with a weird dry spell in one place and everythign else getting hammered. Payback was December 2000 with 26 days of snowfall and a terrible year almost everywhere except the southern Alps untill late March.

[snowfire]

aack, I lost this thread somewhere amid the jumble. Thanks for the replies, guys. I'll check out that other thread too.

As for particulars, cheap is definitely good. Cheap skiing, cheap lodging (which I can't seem to find ANY of, hostels starting as USD$75/bed? aack!)... and cheap transport.

I'm probably not looking to ski all 30 days, seeing as how I'm also going to be quasi-trying to find a place to live. I'd really like to live in Europe for awhile after doctorate school. I would like to ski a decent amount, though. I'll probably go where the snow goes to a certain extent and ski if it's good, because I'll be going on the cheap and don't want to pay for bad skiing. The days I can't find any good snow, I'll cavort around the towns looking for a fun place to reside. I figure it will all even out.

Roo, I would LOVE for you and the Mrs, etc, to show us around La Grave! It looks like we'll be getting to Europe on the 26th, not quite sure where we're flying into yet. We were thinking Paris but it seems like a huge pain in the ass, and if we did want to see the city it would be only for a day, just to say we'd been there and to eat. I'm not much for cities. I assume the closest international airport to La Grave is Geneva?

again, thanks! I really appreciate the input, and will probably be asking for more as we start to solidify plans.

edit:

small resort ideas. Ones that kick ass without the lift lines and for a cheap ticket.

Yes, this is what I'm looking for. I would like to spend a couple days in La Grave and Cham, but for the most part I'm thinking smaller/cheap.

Not much tree-skiing isn't a huge deal- I spent a season in NZ so I'm used to it. Looking for steeps, bowls, lift-serviced bc (or non-liftserviced if we happen upon someone who knows the area) and did I mention steeps? We're definitely not averse to hiking/skinning for turns, just hopefully not too much if we're paying a left nut for a ticket.

Nightlife isn't a high priority. It would be nice to have some here and there but I would prefer a quieter area with better skiing.

After reading the other thread, I think we'll try and push the trip back a week in hopes of better snow and less Christmas traffic. I think we'll be arriving on the 26th instead of the 20th and staying until the Jan 26 or so, missing the first week of classes.

Transportation... after reading the other post I'm a bit sketched out about trains. It seems like it would make it a bit hard to follow the snow. Would it be worth renting a small RV- would it be cheaper than paying public transport costs and lodging costs? Or not? What about renting a van or station wagon from the companies LITT mentioned? Would we freeze trying to sleep in a van, or is it doable?

Unlike glademaster, I think we'll probably be spending the majority of our time in France, with Switzerland probably pulling a close second (if we can afford it, I hear things tend to be very not cheap in Switzerland).

Anyone know anything about the town of Chambery?

[TeleAl]

I have never paid more than 50 CHF for a youth hostel room, and that included an excellent breakfast. That is about 35 USD. Normally, they are cheaper. Check your numbers.

Visit the parking lot at Argentiere Chamonix. People sleep in vans all the time (albeit with heaters going). It is doable. It rarely gets ridiculous cold here in winter. Given the choice, I would do that. But, figuring it all out (i.e. getting a vehicule like that) might take some effort. But a van gives, mobility, lodging, food prep zone.

[supercastor]

I agree with the van thing, but vehicles are quite expensive here in France (and in yurp, AFAIK), even for rental. And gas is more than 1 euro per litre.
Train = very bad for skiers.

Smaller resorts : check Les 7 Laux (close to Grenoble), Ste Foy&Montchavin (close to Bourg St Maurice), St Pierre de Chartreuse (Gre), Thyon/Evolène/Arolla/Zinal (Val d'Hérens/Val d'Hérémence, Sion, Switz.).

From Cham to La Grave, you'll have to travel a great part of the french alps. I suggest you start from one of those places and then go to the other stopping where you like (or where the snow is good).
I'll probly have a place to sleep for a couple people close to BSM or Gre, if it can spare you some cash to ski some more...

What do you want to know about "Chambé"? Very nice town, smaller than "Gre", a bit more expensive, less pollution (easy). Great lake to wakeboard and have fun in summer, close to the Belledone resorts in winter (the aforementionned "Les 7 Laux", plus a nice one I can't remember). Central.

[Lostinthetrees]

You wrote... "Transportation... What about renting a van or station wagon from the companies LITT mentioned? Would we freeze trying to sleep in a van, or is it doable?"


Don't rent anything for more than 16 days in Europe. You can short-term lease almost any new vehicle model produced by Renault or Peugot, you are 1st time owner, includes all paperwork, title, all insurances, plates, etc. And you can pick-up at CDG (or, other French intl airports) drive to any EU country, and drop at any intl airport in France w/o penalty. All paperwork done in the States, before you leave. I think you need to allow 60 days for processing. If you are looking and can't find them I can look for the websites.

Van vs 2-door econo car? Pick the econo car. Spend your money on warm rooms. Don't spend it on gas. Make sure you request "chains" with lease. You will be able to get anywhere almost anytime. Like SLC area, the roads are quickly cleared for the tourist ski dollars/euros.

I would fly into Paris. It is a perfect time to be there. Cheaper hotel rates. Very few tourists and the city will be decked for the Holidays. You may not like cities, but this is one that is worth the pain to see. Like NYC, there are a wide variety of neighborhoods; each with their own character. No car needed as Metro system is excellent. Suggest Marais district near Picasso museum.

Or, how about flying into Nice. Swing up the French Alpes to Chamonix. From Cham over the col de Forclaz into CH to ski Valais resorts. Then, thru the tunnel at the Grand St. Bernard into Italy. Down the Italian Alpes to the Ital Riviera and back to Nice. That's about 30 days worth of skiing and sightseeing!

LITT

[snowfire]

You guys are awesome!!

I would fly into Paris. It is a perfect time to be there. Cheaper hotel rates. Very few tourists and the city will be decked for the Holidays. You may not like cities, but this is one that is worth the pain to see.

From Cham to La Grave, you'll have to travel a great part of the french alps. I suggest you start from one of those places and then go to the other stopping where you like (or where the snow is good).

This sounds like a good option. We'll probably fly into Paris and see the city for a day or two. Then head for La Grave to ski with Roo and Co, since they'll be there right about the time we'll get in. Then go where the snow goes making our way to Cham. We want to try and hit places in Switzerland too, and maybe Northern Italy. I looked into flying into Nice, but it is WAY more expensive than Paris. Right now it's looking like we'll fly into Paris and back out of Geneva.

Van vs 2-door econo car? Pick the econo car. Spend your money on warm rooms. Don't spend it on gas. Make sure you request "chains" with lease. You will be able to get anywhere almost anytime.

Good advice, thanks. I'm going to look into that lease thing, and I'll let you know if I can't find the sites. Also hostels for $35 sound much better than $75... I must be looking in the wrong places. Hostelling International came up with some pretty expensive stuff. TeleAl, if you have suggestions of cheap hostels (or good books/sites to look for 'em), throw 'em at me.

I'll probly have a place to sleep for a couple people close to BSM or Gre, if it can spare you some cash to ski some more...

That would be SO awesome if you could swing that! There will most likely be just two of us, maaaaybe three. But probably not. We're small and fit well in corners.

What do you want to know about "Chambé"?

Anything, really. I don't know much. Would it be a nice place to live? Good place to rent an apartment for a year or so that wouldn't cost a pair of nuts that would be pretty close to good skiing?


Again, you guys rock. Thanks! I've never been to Europe, so I'm really excited.

[snowfire]

I'm looking at the Renault vehicles now (ideamerge.com), and the cheapest is usd $799 for the first 17 days, and $18 for days after? Does that sound right? That's $47 a day, sounds a little steep to me. But maybe that's actually cheap? Any place I could get the same deal for cheaper?

edit: just got done watching High Life. Fast forward the next three months please...!!!

[supercastor]

Chambé : http://www.mairie-chambery.fr/

I've only been there a couple of times, for fiestas, so I don't know much.

I'd say : great town to live for a year or so, like a big charming village, close to the snow and everything at hand (even at least one theatre! wow ). 45mn from grenoble, 35 to albertville, 1h to Lyon.
A town full of skiers, you walk in the streets you see them passing by, skis on the shoulder and gloves dangling from the backpack.

Drawback is what we call "le coup de la vie", life's cost : renting a flat in chambé you should wake early and have about 450$/month (more than 400 euros) for 1 room+kitchen+bathroom. And the town policy is not really cool with cars. Parking lot are more than expensive (when you can find one).

If you need specific infos I can ask friends who live there, PM.

For the room I shall confess that I'm still in Toulouse right now ("packing for winter") so I don't have my new home secured. But whatever, you'll be welcome

[Mulletizer]

I will be in the area all winter should you or anyone else want the definitive advice of which "couloir" not to ski (at least not without a VERY long rope) I might be able to give it. Or at least try to sound authoritative.

BTW the other flight option is Lyon or Grenoble. Much closer to LG than Geneva and you can get up to Paris very fast (like 2 hours fast) by TGV if you really want to visit. Might even be cheaper than driving.

[Lostinthetrees]

Originally posted by snowfire
I'm looking at the Renault vehicles now (ideamerge.com), and the cheapest is usd $799 for the first 17 days, and $18 for days after? Does that sound right? That's $47 a day, sounds a little steep to me. But maybe that's actually cheap? Any place I could get the same deal for cheaper?

This is the company I used when we leased a car for 5 weeks in Europe. Obviously, pricing depends on the model-type/engine size/number of doors... you are choosing and the length of time.

http://www.kemwel.com/leasing.cfm

Also, remember the dollar is weaker to the euro...your getting ~ 0.80 centimes for a US dollar.

I live about 15 - 20 min away from airport. I can testify that it is not hard to find and easy to get in and out of. About 2.5 - 3 hrs from Verbier and about 1.5 - 2 hrs from Chamonix (rush hour dependent). Not a monsterous place like Denver, O'Hare or CDG.

litt

[snowfire]

cheers, looking into that website

[snowfire]

Originally posted by supercastor
Chambé : http://www.mairie-chambery.fr/

I've only been there a couple of times, for fiestas, so I don't know much.

I'd say : great town to live for a year or so, like a big charming village, close to the snow and everything at hand (even at least one theatre! wow ). 45mn from grenoble, 35 to albertville, 1h to Lyon.
A town full of skiers, you walk in the streets you see them passing by, skis on the shoulder and gloves dangling from the backpack.

Drawback is what we call "le coup de la vie", life's cost : renting a flat in chambé you should wake early and have about 450$/month (more than 400 euros) for 1 room+kitchen+bathroom. And the town policy is not really cool with cars. Parking lot are more than expensive (when you can find one).

If you need specific infos I can ask friends who live there, PM.

For the room I shall confess that I'm still in Toulouse right now ("packing for winter") so I don't have my new home secured. But whatever, you'll be welcome

Thanks for the info, and the room if you can get it.

The town seems a bit expensive for me... but we'll see. I hear it's REALLY hard for foreigners to get work in France.

edit: hahaha... and if the site were in English, I could read it!! I'm trying to learn French, but I'm not that good yet.

[snowfire]

Okay, need some more help:

I'm looking at the car lease from the website that LITT gave me. I talked to the guy on the phone and it's looking pretty good but there's a couple of questions he couldn't answer for me, thought some of you with experience could.

1. The smallest/cheapest economy car they had is the Peugeot 206 1.1, which is 60 horsepower. Question is, is 60 hp going to get me around in the mountains? Or am I going to slide backwards down the hills with not enough oomph? If that isn't sufficient, what's the minimal hp that would do ok in the Alps?

2. Diesel vs. petrol: It's more spendy to rent a diesel, but is it worth it to save on petrol costs? How much less is diesel than petrol? How do diesels do in the winter and in the mtns (never driven one)?

3. LITT and anyone else who has rented from this company (Kemwel)-- which car did you get? Did you find it had enough hp or needed more? could you fit the skis in the car or did you end up buying a ski rack ($80 USD from Kemwel for the bars and another $130 for the rack)? What was your overall impression of the car/company?

Would a pair of 178 skis fit inside the small Peugeot 201?

This is really starting to come together...thanks for all the input, guys.

Roo- unfortunately, unless my boyfriend changes his mind and decides he doesn't need to go home to Pittsburgh for Christmas before we go to Europe, we probably won't make it to La Grave before you guys leave. I was really looking forward to the tour. I'm still trying to convince him to miss Christmas, but it's worse than pulling teeth. I'll let you know though, and thanks SO much for the offer.

[Mulletizer]

In answer to your questions:

1. Not a problem. I drove a 750cc in the Alps last time I was there. No power probs, just breakdown trouble (it was 12 years old and Italian though...)
2. Depends on the price difference and the mileage you will do. The two fuels cost almost the same but diesle gets you further - about 25% I would guess. The fuel sold in the Alps has additives so it shouldn't wax up.
3. Don't know. I fitted 188s in a smaller car than that but you might get screwed out of a deposit if they make a mess of the seats.

Good luck.

[Lostinthetrees]

Originally posted by snowfire
Okay, need some more help:

... a couple of questions he couldn't answer for me, thought some of you with experience could.

1. The smallest/cheapest economy car they had is the Peugeot 206 1.1, which is 60 horsepower. Question is, is 60 hp going to get me around in the mountains?

Yes. But it may not be large enough to hold all your luggage/ski gear. Not sure. I see small cars in ski parking all the time. Kids manage to get 3 - 4 people and snowboards in, skis on top. Make sure back seats fold down (usually do) to increase your hatch space.

2. Diesel vs. petrol: It's more spendy to rent a diesel, but is it worth it to save on petrol costs?

Diesel is much less expensive in France. Unleaded 95 is cheaper in Suisse. Go diesel and manual as it looks like most miles will be in France and/or Italy.

3. LITT and anyone else who has rented from this company (Kemwel)-- which car did you get? Did you find it had enough hp or needed more? could you fit the skis in the car or did you end up buying a ski rack ($80 USD from Kemwel for the bars and another $130 for the rack)? What was your overall impression of the car/company?

Yes. Leased 3 years ago for 35+ days. Pickup and drop at CDG. NO HASSLES, on either end. Got free service at Peugot dealership in Briancon in 4 hours (as stated in agreement). Needed oil change. Great new car (break or station wagon model) for family vacation travel in Provence, Coted'Azur and camping in FR Alpes.

Would a pair of 178 skis fit inside the small Peugeot 201?

Cannot comment on your model size. Not sure if you can get skis inside or you need the rack.

Another BIG reason for leasing vs rental. No VAT on lease arrangement. VAT is ~ 20% for car rentals in FR. Also, I did not have the airport & city tax, or road fees associated w/ rentals.

Always ask if VAT is part of price of something.

litt

[supercastor]

206 would be fine. I had a 205 (older model) when I lived in Grenoble and sometimes we would head up to Chamrousse or 7laux with 4 people in there, plus their gear, and, well, the little girl would do the job. Moaning, but she'd do the job.

Take a diesel. Diesel is way cheaper (Al? WTF?) about 30% less (80cts+ vs 1€+).

(chambé site has a little UK flag on the top right, meaning there's pages in english, this language you speak )

[TeleAl]

Hostels, a partial list:

Zermatt (there are at least 2)
The Matterhorn
And the Government one
www.hostelz.com/view.php/Switzerland__Zermatt_Hostels

Saas Fee
Hotel Derby (not a hostel, but bomb shelter in hotel)
saas-fee.ch/en/hotel.cfm?ID=DERBY

Chamonix (Argentiere actually, better place to be for skiing)
The Belvedere
www.holidayfrance.com/index.cfm/property/2138

Verbier
No hostel. Bomb shelter only. It sucks. But the skiing rocks.
Find a beautiful Nordic woman (I suggest a blonde one), and curl up in her fur coat.
Or, stay in another town that leads into the ski area (Nendaz for one, and there are some other towns). I am not sure of the names. I take the train into Verbier, ski the day, and leave before nightfall.

Champex le Lac has a hostel.
The town is so small, you cannot miss it.

Super St. Bernard is not a town, rather an exit off the road with a parking lot and lift. I love that place. Go only if sunny! Follow road to Gd. St. Bernard pass, exit when you see sign and before you enter tunnel (note: the tunnel is not the covered road, the tunnel is the tunnel as in rock all around.)

At SSB there is one 4 person lift plus a Poma. It is enough. There is a tunnel to ski through about 20m below the top of the lift, do it!!! And, conditions permitting, make your last run down the Italian side and return by bus. You need to make your intentions clear when you buy your lift ticket (some 34 CHF/$20 btw). Note, as I understood it, the bus runs once per day only! Ask, they will help you.

If I am not being clear about SSB, let me say it again, this place is awesome!
Not having a resort, it's not super popular. And, go only when there is visibility because there isn't a tree around. But, I digress.

Andermatt
Has a government youth hostel (doubt you'd miss it).

Murren
Has a private youth hostel (Rick Steve's guide lists it).

Need more? Tell me where. Or PM me.

Incidentally, at every Swiss Government Youth Hostel there is a map of Switzerland with all the Youth Hostels listed, plus all their info. In any private hostel, there will be a panel of fliers from many other private hostels.

Good luck.

[Lostinthetrees]

Looking back at my post last post; it may not be clear, but I answered your questions within your quoted message. Someone else chimed in that the 206 will perform. Renault has the exact same program, but I do not know the web address or name of the company that manages the "min 17 day & max 180 day" lease program for Renault.

Reading TeleAl's comments I have this to add:

Verbier: avoid at all cost over the Holiday's. Idris said the same thing about Chamonix. By Jan 3, both should be cleared out of ski posers, holiday trippers, and prices for housing in Jan should be 1/3 to 1/2 of the Holiday rates. I avoid Verbier on the weekends, too. I always preferred Alta or Sundance over Park City if you know what I mean.

Le Chable is the name of the town in the valley below Verbier. Plenty of budget places to stay and you can walk to the telecabine to be taken up to Verb in about 5 minutes. MUCH better than driving up! But, if you are looking for a glitzy resort, fur coats, and the bar scene, then spend more money to stay in Verb. If you want to see a real working Swiss village then Le Chable.

SSB. TeleAl,
I never knew you made the trip over to Italy (Etroubles)? We were up there and decided against it 'cause we had a friggin' boarder with us who was going to have to posthole his way into Italy!!! I am taking the trip into Italy this year. I have skins. Let's do it!

SSB, not to scare you off, but strongly reco skiing w/ transceiver, shovel and probe for each of skier. It is one of my favorite places (when it is not lost in fog/clouds!!!), but it can be one of the most dangerous I ski at. 2 marked pistes. 2 huge treeless valleys of off-piste. I do not reco it without someone who knows the place. Happy to run join you at SSB, but you must have minimum avi kit to ski with me.

GSB - Another and safer idea is to skin up to the Refuge at Grand St. Bernard and spend the night. It is a very large refuge, old church, good resto, St B. dogs, and awesome scenery. Make reservations by phone before skinning up from the SSB parking lot. It is a well marked trail up and down and safe climb. It is a very popular skin destination on weekends. Suggest any day mid-week and you will see few others. I will be doing it this season, too. Happy to skin up with you.

Leysin - is where TeleAl hangs it worth seeing/skiing. Very nice views, dramatic rock walls, and can be some of the best skiing depending on conditions. Good tree skiing too, ...which is very hard to find in CH. No avi kit needed, but we always ski with them turned on.

litt