SWIFT boat facts

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by The Reverend Floater
You should move to Venezuela. Seriously.

If it has not been possible to discern from my history of posting. I'm not a fan of communists.


Rev, to answer a question from the other day. CBC reports casualties from war world wide declined last year.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ace040829.html

[Stu Gotz]

nil.

[Blurred]

http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/m...ne_fighter.jpg

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by EPSkis
Name them? You asked:

Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Robert Anderson, EN2, USN (Ret.)
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. “Lord Mort” Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry “Buddy” Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert “Friar Tuck” Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Dennis Spranger
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. “Waz” Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN (Ret.)*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*
* signifying that they signed the original document from May 4, 2004.

Nice list of people who may have been on Swift boats at some point during Kerry's service--none of whom were on his boat. Completely irrelevant list of names.

If you're going to argue this point, how do you defend the guys in this group who have clearly lied, contradicting themselves and the official record just to grind an axe with Kerry? Their motives are clear--they don't like what JK said about them when he came back. That's the only reason they're lying like this.

[Will]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Yes I realize Kerry served near the Cambodian border. However, he was not in Cambodia as he has claimed numerous times.

And your proof for this is?

Aside from the simple "I don't like Kerry" where is your proof? So far you've got one quote from '79 where he got the president at the time wrong by one month (a mistake he did not make in 86), and...

..well, that's about it.

He was fighting right on the border, that you admit to. As of '67 US forces were crossing into Cambodia (including along the Mekong River), that is established fact. And according to the statements of the SBVT founder himself the swiftboats did indeed cross into cambodia.

So, what are the reasons that Kerry's couldn't ever-possibly-never-in-a-million-years have been in Cambodia? Let's hear 'em.
Prove to me the guys you're backing are more than lying sacks of shit.

[Dexter Rutecki]

He can't. They are lying sacks of shit, everyone who's not completely biased admits to that. And everyone who's not blinded by partisan craziness acknowledges that Kerry was in Cambodia on a Swift boat, just not on the date he initially claimed.

[mr_gyptian]

The fighting that occured in Cambodia started after Kerry left. We openly fought there during the Cambodian Incursion of 1970.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com.../cambodia.aspx


Again, the burden of proof is not on me. A simple release of his military records would go a long way in proving this.

"On Christmas Eve he was near Cambodia; he was around 50 miles from the Cambodian border. There's no indictment of Kerry to be made, but he was mistaken about Christmas in Cambodia," said Douglas Brinkley, who has unique access to the candidate's wartime journals.

Here's another indicator that Kerry's story about being shot at in Cambodia at Christmas 1968 is a complete fabrication: He claims to have been shot at by the "Khmer Rouge and Cambodians," clearly distinguishing between the Cambodian government forces and Khmer Rouge. Not bloody likely.

"The Khmer Rouge were a small force in 1968, by all accounts less that 2500 (compared w/ 30,000+ by 1973). They did not launch a major offensive against the Cambodian government until 1970 -- they were too small and lacked the capability. In 1968 ther were virtually unknown to Westerners and were not engaged in operations against the U. S. military. They finally overthrew the government and took Phnom Penh in 1975. Only then did they become well known to most Americans."

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
He can't. They are lying sacks of shit, everyone who's not completely biased admits to that. And everyone who's not blinded by partisan craziness acknowledges that Kerry was in Cambodia on a Swift boat, just not on the date he initially claimed.

yeah, and Bush was in Alabama, just not on the date he did not claim, because he knew the Pentagon's records would prove him correct. He did not have to say anything because he knew there wasn't a story there.

Kerry on the other hand has done nothing to rebut accusations or release military records. Oh, and where has he been lately? After the Jon Stewart interview John-John has kind of fell off the map, or might just be within 50 miles of it.

[shamrockpow]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian

Oh, and where has he been lately? After the Jon Stewart interview John-John has kind of fell off the map, or might just be within 50 miles of it.

Doing exactly what the other candidate did during his convention: keep a low profile and wait till next week b/f starting up serious campaigning again. Those are the freaking rules of the game.

Also McG: I know you hate communists, but Hugo Chavez (whose policies only vaguely resemble his socialist party platform) was democratically elected and held his office in the face of opposition from much of the ruling class that has controlled Venezuelan politics for 50+ years. Do you oppose DEMOCRACY?

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Yeah, that's courtesy of the same right wingers orchestrating the Swift boat revisionism, upset because Kerry told the truth about Vietnam. I can't believe it's even an issue--is there any debate at all about the morality of that war, or that our soldiers committed atrocities? It's pretty much a settled issue--them trying to exact vengeance today, truth be damned, is low even for Republicans.

Dex I can understand your passion about this topic. Maybe I can clear some things up for you by giving a viewpoint of someone that experienced that time, and served in the military. Kerry's military past well it is sceptical. I commend him for volunteering. He did 4 months and went home. He got his 3rd Purple heart which was any servicemans ticket home.

Yes he got the 3 purple hearts garnering himself an early exist from combat. Each of his wounds were superfiscial in nature. Only 2 required stitches. A total of 13 is what I believe they released. Yes he won the Silver and Bronze star. However, he was awarded those medals from his own "After Action Reports". In other words he recommended himself. Now I'm not gigging him on that. Frankly there have been quite a few that have changed some reports to make themselves look good from past military combattive exchanges.

Now from what I have been told is that there were 3 AAR's done about the day Kerry fished the guy out of the drink from 2 other boat crews that were there. The Lt that was rescued stated: I was taking hostel fire, but did not know from where". I don't doubt that he was being fired upon. The poor guy was trying to stay underwater for his safety. He just knew that rounds were being fired. Frankly he didn't care where from, or who by because of his rush to get the fuck out of Dodge. However, before Kerry turned his boat around to fish the Lt out. His boat was on the other side of the delta channel. His boat was sending surpressive fire in the direction of the area the Lt, that Kerry would eventually pull into his boat. Kerry's boat ceased fire when headed into the direction of the Lt after that Lt was spotted by the rear gunnersmate manning the 50cal duely's at the back of Kerrys boat which was firing in the Lt's direction. Yes Kerry did pull the man out. But he was the only guy that could. Swift boat SOP is for all hands to man their gun stations in free fire zones. Kerry was the only guy that had hands free to pull him in. There is the fog of war. That Lt only knew that rounds were being fired around him. Abet a very short period of time. The other boat crews have stated that each boat did fire short bursts of cover fire over the zones they were to secure that day for a pick up of personel. That is standard SOP for teams personel pickup. That is why we always take cover, or blow smoke so the boat crews in the Zodiacs know where the friendlys are.

Scuttle butt that is being passed around is that Kerry's men were firing in the area before they knew that Lt was in that area according to SOP. But you have to realize the time, and the bad press that was going on regarding friendly fire incidents in Vietnam. The DOD, and the then current administration were getting killed in the court of public opinion regarding friendly fire incidents that caused injury or death to American service personel. It got major play on all the news networks. So any chance of "Friendly Fire" being the cause of any mission was covered up if possible by the DOD at that time.

Kerry ended up being the Navy's posterboy for positive PR. The other AAR's stated (from what the two other crews have said in interviews) that Kerry's boat was laying down surpressive cover fire in the general direction of where the Lt was rescued, but no enemy fire was noticed. Now you can trust me on this. When it comes from combat. You know what the enemy's weapons sound like, because your life depends on being able to recognize the sounds of rounds being dispursed by enemy weapons.


Those AAR's from the other 2 boats went missing 30 years ago. No explanation has ever been given why by the DOD. Well above tells why.

When Kerry testifide before Congress back in the early seventies, many from the DOD brought up those two missing AAR's. Kerry pissed off the DOD. But the DOD had made him their poster boy a few years earlier, but destroyed the evidence that could hang Kerry out to dry. I'm sure Kerry knew this.

Articles/facts released by DOD were given to favored reporters when the DOD needed positive media play. Still works that way. But the press release about the incident of the Lt rescue was a big love session. The press did a big rich kid volunteers play. "Lt. JG. Kerry volunteered and felt it is his duty. Kerry comes for an upstanding family from Mass". Or something like that. It was the DOD's way of saying we aren't just having poor boys fighting and dying in Vietnam, we have rich kids going there as well. Look what this hero did.

Frankly the DOD sat on/destroyed the other two AAR's disputing Kerrys claims at the time because they needed a poster boy for PR reason. Those AAR's like I said earlier became missing after Kerry was awarded his medal. I'm not saying the entire thing is right or wrong. But this is how things work from time to time in military circles when they need good press.

Now like I stated before. Men in military uniform have embellished the truth a bit when it comes to getting medals. AAR's have change drastically since that time. You have several men from your unit that submit one as well, along with other units in the area to get a clearer picture.

But after Kerry came home. He basically went before Congress and lied. Called all of us rapists, bruttle killers of women and children causing genocide, when he was never in any villages, or participated in any "SnD" missions. You would have to be a Vet to understand how bad that hurts. He broke the faith. When you are in the mudd all you have is each other. You keep the faith with your brothers and sisters in arms. Kerry broke that bond. Frankly everybody I know in the military is very scared if Kerry becomes President. They are afraid he will brake the faith again and just let us all hang out to dry and die.

Kerry pulled a political stunt after he testifided before congress. He tossed ribbons, not medals over the fence. He went on tv and said he was ashamed of his medals and tossed them over the fence along with some other fellow vets. He only tossed his ribbons. Little pieces of fabric on a small metal rectangular button. He keeps his medals in a display case and shows them off all the time. Even now to the press. His campaign is touting his medals, that he recieved from his own AAR's. The same ones he said he was ashamed of all those years ago, which he said he through over the fence but never did.

I went into the service a few years later after Kerry's protesting, and congressional testimony. I remember how bad what he did hurt many in the service. It's a deep wound. The man is touting his Vietnam record as the reason he should be President. Yet he called his fellow Vietnam Veteran's murder's, rapists, committing acts of genocide years before. It's very difficult for those that wear the uniform to trust him.

Now Clinton became president, and service in Vietnam was a non-issue then. However, if Kerry wants his service in Vietnam to be his platform on why he should be President. Maybe we should ask that gunnersmate that was manning the 50's at the back of Kerry's boat that day. He's the same guy that sued Kerry's campaign to have his picture taken out of the adds because he said Kerry was lying.

For myself. Well I justs don't know. There is the "Fog of War". Each person's take on events in that fog are completely different from the other people involved. However, I know the military political machine and how it works. The gunnersmate that will not support Kerry speaks volumns to me.

But for all of you. Keep an open mind regarding this election. But please do yourself a favor. Every now and again. Play "Devils Advocate" and pretend to be arguing for the otherside. It can be an eye opening experience.

Either way after this election is done. Well the snow will fall, and the lifts will open. And that is what is truly important eh!

[ak_powder_monkey]

Originally posted by BlurredElevens
Yes, Bush is an evil man. So is Kerry.....come to think of it, everyone is evil. Overthrow the government in Fall 2004. Good plan.

phUnk for president 2004

[TJ.Brk]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Yeah, that's courtesy of the same right wingers orchestrating the Swift boat revisionism, upset because Kerry told the truth about Vietnam. I can't believe it's even an issue--is there any debate at all about the morality of that war, or that our soldiers committed atrocities? It's pretty much a settled issue--them trying to exact vengeance today, truth be damned, is low even for Republicans.

Umm Dex. Does it mean anything to you that Kerry is a hero of a Communist country. And how they believe his actions help to kill many of the invaders. That's pretty bad man.

[Greydon Clark]

This is ancient history, I'll be voting based on events that happened in the 21st century.

[natty dread]

The repubs/Rove can sling as much mud as they want, but they can't escape the cold, hard fact that Kerry served and dick and shrub didn't.



Respect for Veterans, and Their Medals (5 Letters)

August 28, 2004

To the Editor:

Now, when we should be especially appreciative of military
service, people with close ties to the Bush campaign are
attempting to denigrate John Kerry's war record.

Their untruthful ads attack Mr. Kerry's official record of
service in Vietnam, not just his political positions
afterward. That is why Senator John McCain called them
"dishonest and dishonorable."

As commander in chief, President Bush has the duty to
protect the system. By refusing to disavow these ads, he is
permitting disrespect of combat service at the very time he
is ordering our troops to fight in Iraq.

Should the Bush campaign be allowed to select which combat
veterans deserve their honors?

Ed Reed
Port Aransas, Tex., Aug. 27, 2004
The writer was in the
Army from 1970 to 1972 and volunteered for Vietnam in 1971.


?

To the Editor:

If you are an American man, wouldn't you be harboring guilt
at having evaded your duty to fight in a war? Wouldn't you
be threatened by those who did take up the call to arms?
Wouldn't you deal with your unease by trying to diminish
those who make you look like a coward?

In their attempt to reduce cognitive dissonance - the
discrepancy between who they are and who they know they
should be - the supporters of the Swift boat ads attacking
John Kerry are using slime and calumny to deflect their own
self-images onto their opponents.

Hazel Kahan
Mattituck, N.Y., Aug. 27, 2004
The writer is a
psychologist.

?

To the Editor:

Is it not absurd that the degree of John Kerry's bravery in
Vietnam should be a subject of debate, while during that
war his opponent courageously volunteered to defend Texas
against a sneak attack from Oklahoma?

Mark Roth
Breckenridge, Colo., Aug. 27, 2004

?

To the Editor:


Larry Heinemann, a Vietnam veteran, says that "in Vietnam
medals were handed out like popcorn" (Op-Ed, Aug. 27). This
has the ring of truth to anyone who has ever been a part of
any organization that confers awards.

But by calling into question whether John Kerry deserved
his medals, the partisan political revisionists known as
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have assailed the integrity
of the process by which medals have been awarded to
Americans serving in all wars.

Paul Alan Laughlin
Westerville, Ohio, Aug. 27, 2004

?

To the Editor:

As
a Vietnam veteran, my experiences reflect those of Larry
Heinemann (Op-Ed, Aug. 27). Medals were generously
distributed, almost for the asking, in Vietnam. I also
remember that avoiding the obligation to go to Vietnam by
legal means was popular during that time.

Given these two conditions, we really cannot be surprised
by John Kerry's pursuit of medals or the Bush folks'
avoidance of the draft or Vietnam service.

What is upsetting is Mr. Kerry's self-serving political use
of his short Vietnam experience, especially in light of his
post-Vietnam activities.

Equally disturbing is the mudslinging or silence of those
who were able to avoid Vietnam against those who did serve.
We who served should be respected.

Let Vietnam rest. Let's move forward to the more important,
real issues.

J. C. Mallia
Basking Ridge, N.J., Aug. 27, 2004

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/28/op...95c09ec046124b

[schuss]

kerry did not write his own reports and had no influence upon their writing. This has been established time and again.

[Blurred]

Ask yourself if we'd be better off with a guy that used to do coke, or a guy that gets vietnam flashbacks....

Our choices are outstanding.

[schuss]

vote banana in 2004. Because fruit can't hurt you.

[teledave]

Originally posted by BlurredElevens
Ask yourself if we'd be better off with a guy that used to do coke, or a guy that gets vietnam flashbacks....

Our choices are outstanding.

I'm not sure if it's insightful or just plain scary that blurred is the voice of reason in this thread.

His statement reallty sums things up with this whole election.

(Just my $.02, now putting on the Nomex suit and preparing to flamed by both sides.)

[DaveTV]

Does it mean anything to you that Kerry is a hero of a Communist country.

Huh?
And according to the convention drivel last night, only REPUBLICANS died on 9/11 ...

[Grange]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk

The Lt that was rescued stated: I was taking hostel fire, but did not know from where". I don't doubt that he was being fired upon. The poor guy was trying to stay underwater for his safety. He just knew that rounds were being fired.

Now you can trust me on this. When it comes from combat. You know what the enemy's weapons sound like, because your life depends on being able to recognize the sounds of rounds being dispursed by enemy weapons.

Either way after this election is done. Well the snow will fall, and the lifts will open. And that is what is truly important eh!

I see the Lt said he was taking hostil fire and according to your own words someone in combat would know what hostil fire sounds like. So my question is it unreasonable to believe that the Lt could recognize that there was enemy fire like the official reports indicate. So as you asked everyone else, play "Devils Advocate" and pretend to be arguing for the otherside.

Now I whole heartedly support your last point.


As far as Mr. G's comment "The fighting that occured in Cambodia started after Kerry left. We openly fought there during the Cambodian Incursion of 1970", I have to disagee. According to my father who was there in '68 and a couple of other vets I talked to said they were in Cambodia before '70. My father would not elaborate as to what he was doing since he still doesn't talk a lot about Vietnam.

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by Will
No.

Not all the members of SBVT.

The ones who are shown by the military record to have been eyewitnesses to Kerry's actions! It's no good that these people were in vietnam at some point in time and on a swiftboat. If these people are going to say that the official Navy record is wrong then we need evidence that they were, in fact, eyewitnesses.

That joke of a list you posted is just folks with a grudge about Kerry's 1971 testimony.

Hell, I was in texas at one point in time but if I were to say that "I saw George Bush do a line of coke 8 feet long and then fuck a 12 year old" you would rightly ask me for some kind of proof that I actually could have seen this. Were I a SBVT I would refuse to provide any.

And, yes.... Kerry did serve two tours. Go here and read. You can try and discount it as a partisan news site, but The Columbia Journalism Review really only gives a shit about the press getting the facts right, they don't give a damn about either party (watch them slam Kerry reporters for not fact-checking his statements about the loss of public vs. private sector jobs).

Those aren't all the members of SBVT - those are Veterans that served on the boats with Kerry in Vietnam who don't believe Kerry is fit for command. I will work on getting verification of those names & who was actually close enough to smell his ass-crack, if that's what it takes for you to admit that they were "eyewitnesses".

Again - a "tour" of Vietnam was, is and will always be universally recognized as a one-year term.

Here's a breakdown of Kerry's "Two tours":

December 1967 to June of 1968 he worked in the electrical department of a frigate in the Gulf of Tonkin a couple hundred miles removed from Vietnam. It is not "action" in Vietnam, nor is it a "tour".

June 1968 to December 1968, he was in Long Beach, CA. (This 7 months considered part of his Vietnam service? It HAS to be if the "two tour" story is to be believed.)

Kerry began his swift boat "career" in December of 1968.
Kerry requested reassignment in March of 1969.

This isn't brain surgery. He was "In country" from early December to mid-March. This information is readily available. Not 2 tours, it was less than half of ONE "tour". He was only in Vietnam for four and one half months.

[Dexter Rutecki]

But for how many months did he defend Texas? Alabama? How long was he AWOL?
GWB leads the league in all those categories.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by TJ.Brk
Every now and again. Play "Devils Advocate" and pretend to be arguing for the otherside.

So you're arguing for the intelligent side?

[DougW]

I don't pretend to follow US race and don't know all of the facts or heard all of the non facts.

But being a Life member of the US Naval Institute , far left org. if there ever was one, there was a letter from Kerry's XO of a cruiser who said that Kerry was top rate . Now here is a guy who could of spent all of his time floating around offshore with a .1% chance of getting killed and volunteered to go brown water navy. Hello that in it self shows a hell of alot more balls that Mr. ANG ( coward).

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
But for how many months did he defend Texas? Alabama? How long was he AWOL?
GWB leads the league in all those categories.

This response is what I referred to in earlier posts.
So his service to the Country is minimalized because he "only" served in the ANG in Texas & Alabama?

As far as an AWOL accusation, are you not JUST as outraged at the Military's shoddy record keeping?

We don't have an itinerary for Kerry's stay in Long Beach. (While he was apparently accruing his chest full of medals in his 2 Vietnam tours.) Since we don't have an accurate record of his time there, we MUST assume that he spent his 7 months there surfing the Cali coast, partying in Hermosa and house shopping in Beverly Hills. All the while preparing his anti-war media blitz. Surely, he didn't have time to worry about the military.

Disprove it.