SWIFT boat facts

[basom]

Originally posted by EPSkis
I have serious issues with GWB's environmental stance. Frankly, it boggles my mind how he can be so incredibly short-sighted when it comes to environmental issues.

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by The AD
But you were just griping a couple weeks ago that you haven't gotten a raise in four years! Let's see, oh yeah, that's back when Clinton was in office

I could see you trumpeting how great the economy is under Bush's regime if you were really benefitting, but it doesn't sound like you have. Oh, maybe your boss and the CEO of your company have made out like bandits and that's good enough for you.

Which is just the way this monstrosity of a Company operates. I'm sure I'm not the ONLY one.

My Boss and the CFO are definitely benefitting. My organization is Chrysler Financial's largest single client. The Owner is consistently in the Forbes Top 200, been in Top 100 a dozen times in the last 30 years. This is a strange industry, in that we aren't affected as much by swings in the economy.

As far as not benefitting? Check that thread again.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by Will
Republicans are having a hard time distinguishing between negative and/or hard-hitting ads and ones that peddle demonstrable falsehoods -- i.e., smears.

Name a single anti-bush television advertisement that has lied.
go on... do it. I dare you.

Exactly. There have been no 527 ads that have lied about Bush's record, as the 'Swifties' have tried to do to Kerry. What's great about the Moveon ad is that, propagandistic though it is, factually it's absolutely accurate about Bush' AWOL Guard stint.
And to bring up Michael Moore as if he's a Democratic surrogate the way the Swift boat guys are Republican surrogates is a red herring. Moore is certainly not an invention of the Kerry campaign, the way the Swifties are a creation of Rove, etc..

If anyone's military record should be at issue it's Bush's. He skipped ahead of 500 others waiting to get into the guard, disappeared from duty for over a year, missed a required physical, got assigned to flight school despite the lowest possible score, and has had his absence confirmed by his commander. Those are facts veterans should publicize, not the smears invented by liars upset Kerry indirectly criticized them 30+ years ago.

[Skip Dooley]

C.A.F.T.A.
(Central American Free Trade Act)

Joke.

[shamrockpow]

Originally posted by EPSkis
In this century, the greatest environmental progress will come about not through endless lawsuits or command-and-control regulations, but through technology and innovation.

Just read that again. Almost every environmental benefit we've received since WW2 had to be fought for tooth and nail with big industry. I'm not saying big industry is inherently evil, just that they have a profit motive irregardless of long-term physical damage to the environment.

Tearing down the regulatory apparatus that has served this country greatly for 30+ years is probably up on the top 10 list of blunders by the GWB administration IMHO. New Source was so villified in the media, b/c it was hurting the bottom line of companies, not b/c it wasn't making progress. The free market does work well in some pollution regulation, but allowing tradeable caps for heavy particulate waste (like mercury emissions) makes ZERO sense unless you are willing to bear direct responsibilty for making 1000 sq. mile tracts of inhabited land, hazardous waste dumps and causing birth defects and cancers in 1000s of residents who are too slow to move (often b/c the companies they work for will not even admit there is a problem until faced with the facts in a public lawsuit).


And saying that we're gonna reduce pollution by 70%, when the plan before you took office was for 90% reduction doesn't exactly make you an environmental champion...

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
If anyone's military record should be at issue it's Bush's. He skipped ahead of 500 others waiting to get into the guard, disappeared from duty for over a year, missed a required physical, got assigned to flight school despite the lowest possible score, and has had his absence confirmed by his commander. Those are facts veterans should publicize, not the smears invented by liars upset Kerry indirectly criticized them 30+ years ago.

"The swifties are a creation of Rove.." They are? Have I missed something? Have an reliable source of information on that?

Is Bush's record a "Military record" or isn't it? Cake or no cake?
What 500 others?
The records have been released, Dex. C'mon - keep up with your Party's rhetoric - it's only 6 months now.

Bah - making me repeat myself:

***Let me read that closely again. He had permission from his Superiors to attend drill in Montgomery. Should it NEED to go any deeper than this? Not really. When your Superiors speak, it's law - whether you're in Vietnam or KP duty in Hawaii. But go ahead & dig deeper. He missed a physical & was grounded because of it. He didn't get paid, and he didn't receive credits. Now - even through THAT - he still had enough credits, which means that he fulfilled his ANG obligation. Some could complain about HOW he did it - but the bottom line is that he finished it. So what is it NOW? Are they gonna gripe about the fact that he didn't go to Vietnam & call him a "draft-dodger", while belittling his ANG service
OR:
Are they going to do the only other thing they CAN do - which is to make his ANG service so profoundly important that it deserves a Congressional committee?***

Well - we ALL have our answers to that one, don't we? Mold the questions to whatever suits your intent.

Weak.

And finally: "Those are facts veterans should publicize, not the smears invented by liars upset Kerry indirectly criticized them 30+ years ago."

Which liars, the same Veterans you referred to? The ones which should publicize Bush's record? Bush's record HAS been publicized. It's Kerry's that they (Veterans=Liars, whatever) want to talk about.

[The AD]

Originally posted by EPSkis
As far as not benefitting? Check that thread again.

Right on! Now that you're rich you're allowed to be a Republican I guess.

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by The AD
Right on! Now that you're rich you're allowed to be a Republican I guess.

So I'm official now?
I'd still like an opportunity to think about that one, since Camp Kerry owns a l'il place at Sun Valley. Beats the hell out of a ranch in Texass.

[jayfrizzo]

EP:

Just curious, are you saying the whole swiftie thing is OK, but people making an issue of GWB's service is not?

J-

[The AD]

Originally posted by EPSkis
So I'm official now?
I'd still like an opportunity to think about that one, since Camp Kerry owns a l'il place at Sun Valley.

Nah, he's just mooching off the missus.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by EPSkis
"The swifties are a creation of Rove.." They are? Have I missed something? Have an reliable source of information on that?

The ties to Rove and the Bush campaign run deep. Their initial funding came through a close friend of Karl Rove's--coincidence? Just like the Bush campaign's lawyer working for both groups? Of course not.

Is Bush's record a "Military record" or isn't it? Cake or no cake?

It's a fact--Bush was missing when he was supposed to be there. It's not cake or no cake, it's a matter of fact and record. He claims to have served when he wasn't there. That's it.

***Let me read that closely again. He had permission from his Superiors to attend drill in Montgomery. Should it NEED to go any deeper than this?

But he WAS NOT there. There are at least 13 months when he was missing, when claims to have been serving. His CO in Montgomery has corroborated this, as have others.

Not really. When your Superiors speak, it's law - whether you're in Vietnam or KP duty in Hawaii. But go ahead & dig deeper. He missed a physical & was grounded because of it. He didn't get paid, and he didn't receive credits. Now - even through THAT - he still had enough credits, which means that he fulfilled his ANG obligation. Some could complain about HOW he did it - but the bottom line is that he finished it. So what is it NOW? Are they gonna gripe about the fact that he didn't go to Vietnam & call him a "draft-dodger", while belittling his ANG service

Again, he claims to have served when he didn't. As for belittling his service, for the time that he actually he served I would give him credit, but it's worth noting that he avoided the draft as surely as Bill Clinton did. Why that's not an issue when it's a Republican who did it, I don't know. Using daddy's influence to skip over 500 others in line for the same chance at getting into the Guard sure doesn't make him a courageous guy.

OR:
Are they going to do the only other thing they CAN do - which is to make his ANG service so profoundly important that it deserves a Congressional committee?***

I don't know--how 'bout an independent prosecutor and $80 million? That's what the Republicans thought a possible blow job deserved.

Well - we ALL have our answers to that one, don't we? Mold the questions to whatever suits your intent.

Weak.

That's been the Republican strategy--and short of that, they resort to lies (ask Max Cleeland and John McCain how the Rove smear machine works).

]And finally: "Those are facts veterans should publicize, not the smears invented by liars upset Kerry indirectly criticized them 30+ years ago."

Which liars, the same Veterans you referred to? The ones which should publicize Bush's record? Bush's record HAS been publicized. It's Kerry's that they (Veterans=Liars, whatever) want to talk about.

Those veterans are grinding an axe against Kerry for what he said 30 years ago, and that's the only thing they're doing. They don't talk about Kerry's record at all, and everyone knows that. They regularly contradict themselves, those who actually served with Kerry and know the story, and the official record. That they lie about Kerry's record doesn't seem to bother Bush or his supporters, and that's shameful. Bush won't condemn the ads because he knows they're doing his dirty work.



edit: the following should be of interest to those who believe what Bush has claimed about his Alabama Guard duty:

#1 Bush never showed up in Alabama Air National Guard when directly ordered to do so, after requesting a transfer to work in Alabama.

“I was there on a temporary assignment and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time” Bush said during a campaign stop in Tuscaloosa, AL, referring to his claim that he served in the Alabama National Guard. [Dallas Morning News, 6/26/00]

"He specifically recalls pulling duty in Alabama," spokesman Dan Bartlett said of Bush. "He did his drills." Bartlett said the Republican governor showed up "several" times while in Alabama, where he transferred from his Houston Guard unit in 1972 to work for the unsuccessful Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount, a friend of Bush's father. [Washington Post 6/25/00]

The Truth

Bush left Houston May 15, 1972 and went to work on a political campaign in Alabama. His first request for a transfer on May 24 was denied because the unit was inactive. His second request on September 5 to a different unit was granted. He was issued a direct order to report on specific days to the base, which he completely ignored. The order was issued on September 15 to report to then-Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed at Dannelly Air Force base in Montgomery, AL, on the dates of “7-8 October 0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600” His orders, dated Sept. 15, 1972, said: "Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training." [Boston Globe 5/23/00] http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc11.gif

· His Commanding Officer, William Turnipseed, says he did not show up.

"To my knowledge, he never showed up," Turnipseed said last month. [Boston Globe 5/23/00] In interviews last week, Turnipseed and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, said they had no memory of Bush ever reporting. ''Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not,'' Turnipseed said. ''I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered.'' Turnipseed also reports that the then-squadron operations officer of the Alabama Guard also has no recollection of having seen Bush.(The New Republic 10/16/2000)

“Furthermore, a spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.”(The New Republic 10/16/2000)

· There is no official National Guard record for George W. Bush’s service in Alabama.

“His official discharge records do not include any service after May 15 of 1972. Indeed, Bush's discharge papers list his service and duty station for each of his first four years in the Air Guard. But there is no record of training listed after May 1972, and no mention of any service in Alabama. On that discharge form, Lloyd (Albert Lloyd Jr., a retired colonel who was the Texas Air Guard's personnel director from 1969 to 1995 and was hired by the Bush campaign to make sense of the governor's military records) said, ''there should have been an entry for the period between May 1972 and May 1973.'' Said Lloyd, ''It appeared he had a bad year. He might have lost interest, since he knew he was getting out.'' [Boston Globe 5/23/00]

· No one in the Alabama National Guard ever saw him.

“A spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.” (The New Republic 10/16/2000)

Even though members of the Alabama Air National Guard have offered $1000 to anyone who can remember serving with Bush, no one has come forward to corroborate his service, with the exception of an old girlfriend who says she remembers him saying he was going, but does not have any other evidence, essentially making it her word against Bush’s commanding officers’ and a lack of official documents as noted above.

· Even the Bush campaign claims that he only showed up on a single day in November and made up missed weekends, not contesting the fact that he defied direct orders to appear on the dates stated above.

“National Guard records provided by the Guard and by the Bush campaign indicate he did serve on Nov. 29, 1972, after the election. These records also show a gap in service from that time to the previous May. Mr. Bush says he made up for the lost time in subsequent months, and guard records show he received credit for having performed all the required service.” [NYT 7/22/00]

The evidence to support Bush’s service on November 29, 1972 is highly suspect for the following reasons:

- The document offered to dispute the claim by his commanding officers in Alabama is a single torn document that does not have Bush’s name on it, is undated and unsigned. The document was “discovered” in 1998 by the man Bush hired to investigate his record, Al Loyd, and added to the official record. This late addition to the official record also raises additional chain of command issues.

- There are two different versions of the document. The one ‘discovered’ by Mr. Loyd and given to George Magazine has handwritten annotations. The other version came from Mr. Bush’s official record through a FOIA request by Martin Heldt. http://www.cis.net/~coldfeet/doc99.gif The FOIA version did not have any annotations.

- The document comes from the Texas National Guard Archives according to the numbering in the right hand corner of the document, even though duty reports were localized at the time, meaning his service in Alabama would not have been recorded by the Texas Air National Guard

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by jayfrizzo
EP:

Just curious, are you saying the whole swiftie thing is OK, but people making an issue of GWB's service is not?

J-

Nope - does it come across that way?

The questions about GWB's service arose loooong before the whole Kerry/SB thing did. It's HOW the whole thing plays out that kills me: GWB's record comes into question. How? Article from the Boston Globe. (Not exactly middle-of-the-road now, is it?)

Now - Kerry's record gets called into question. After all, he DID spend a whopping 4.5 months there. Well - it turns out there are many, many unanswered questions about Kerry's action in Vietnam. Turns out there are also dozens upon dozens of people that served ALONGSIDE him that say Kerry's presenting himself as something other than what he really is & the accounts of John Kerry's service vary quite a bit from person to person.

(Now I've gotta be honest - I'm FROM Boston & I've never - and I mean EVER...Liked John Kerry - so yeah, there's a bias. Not slanted towards GWB, just definitely away from Kerry.)

As far as I'm concerned, Kerry is & always HAS been a smarmy, holier-than-thou elitist who's concerned with little other than himself & his personal agenda. Suddenly now he's the common man's HERO? Please.

But facts is facts - oddly, I don't think ANY of us will get all of the facts - about EITHER candidate.

edit: I don't like the shit-slinging by EITHER party - but if Kerry's gonna sling it, why's he not prepared to stink too?

[Buster Highmen]

As far as I'm concerned, Bush is & always HAS been a smarmy, holier-than-thou elitist who's concerned with little other than himself & his personal agenda. Suddenly now he's the common man's HERO? Please.

But facts is facts - oddly, I don't think ANY of you will get all of the facts - about EITHER candidate.

[Will]

Originally posted by EPSkis
Now - Kerry's record gets called into question. After all, he DID spend a whopping 4.5 months there. Well - it turns out there are many, many unanswered questions about Kerry's action in Vietnam. Turns out there are also dozens upon dozens of people that served ALONGSIDE him that say Kerry's presenting himself as something other than what he really is & the accounts of John Kerry's service vary quite a bit from person to person.

Who?

Name them.

Not those that have filed "statements" based on what another person told them them they saw 35 years ago, but those who are shown by the military record to have served on the same boat as Kerry or within 100 feet. AKA - eyewitnesses.

Huh.... looks like your "dozens upon dozens" have diminished some... Who have you got now?

Also - I don't care what Rush said, that 4.5 number is partisan bullshit. Kerry served TWO tours in vietnam, for a combined total of 6 months. The Navy thought so much of his service that they made him an aide to an admiral at the end.

[mr_gyptian]

Bush Releases the Evidence
Newly released records show he did indeed serve in 1972.



Under pressure from Democrats who claimed he had been "AWOL" or a "deserter" during his time in the Texas Air National Guard, President Bush today released new documents detailing his service in 1972 and 1973.

In recent weeks, critics had suggested that the president did not meet Guard duty standards during the period from May 1972 until May 1973. Other than the president's recollection that he served during that time, there has, until now, been no evidence that he actually reported for duty. The new documents, which consist of pay records and attendance reports, show that the president missed some months of service during that period but met the yearly requirement for satisfactory service. (Click here for documents 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.)

EDIT: links 1-5 didn't show up.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush1.pdf
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush2.pdf
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush3.pdf
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush4.jpg
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/bush5.jpg
(The fourth and fifth are unreadable in .jpeg on my 'puter. no doubt, they detail Bush's heroic bombing raids over haiphong...or "near there")


The record "clearly shows that First Lt. George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both 72-73 and 73-74, which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner," wrote retired Colonel Albert Lloyd, a Guard officer who reviewed the records at the request of the White House, in a letter released at today's press briefing.

According to Lloyd, guardsmen were required to accumulate 50 points per retirement year in order to meet Guard standards. The records show that the president accumulated 56 points in the May 1972 to May 1973 time period. The president accumulated another 56 points in the months immediately after May 1973, shortly before he left the Guard to attend Harvard Business School.

The records do not address the question of where the president was when he served his Guard duty. A retired official of the Alabama Air National Guard has said he has no recollection of the president's reporting for duty in 1972.

Indeed, the records show that the president did not earn any points for service in May, June, July, August, or September 1972. He began to earn points again in October 1972, and by May 1973 had collected enough points to satisfy Guard requirements for the year.

The president's service was measured on a May-to-May basis because he first joined the Guard in May, 1968. There are no questions about his service for his first four years in the Guard; indeed, the Boston Globe reported in 2000 that during that time the president "logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called 'weekend warriors.'"

When he left the Guard, in 1973, the president was honorably discharged. The White House has maintained that that fact alone proves the president completed the necessary Guard requirements. But Democrats, including presumptive presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry, have said that the simple fact of an honorable discharge does not prove that the president did his duty.

The White House hopes that the release of documents today will quell criticism over the president's service. However, if Tuesday's press briefing was any indication, the questions will persist. Reporters from the broadcast television networks grilled White House spokesman Scott McClellan about the months in which the records do not show any service points earned by the president. McClellan, beyond stating repeatedly that the records prove the president met his obligations, was otherwise not familiar with the details of the documents, and the White House did not provide an expert who could interpret them for reporters.



The .pdf's detail exact dates.

Dex, I know I'm flying under "ignore". However, your first post is exactly why the S.S. Kerry has run aground. Respond to critiques and questions of service with a rebuttal, not accusations regarding who in the SBVT is connected to whom(especially when one of your own is working for a 527, along with another from the DNC providing the same advice to another 527). This strategy of continually revising your candidate's previous statements, recorded in the pages of the Globe and on the Senate floor is obviously not working. Also, if Vietnam is going to be a central part of your campaign, learn the geography. "within 50 miles of Cambodia" comprises around 60 percent of what is Vietnam. You cannot be in between Vietnam and Cambodia. They are nation states that share a border.

The beauty is, the fun hasn't even started. The dem's couldn't even get out of August before losing this.

[Will]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian

Also, if Vietnam is going to be a central part of your campaign, learn the geography. "within 50 miles of Cambodia" comprises around 60 percent of what is Vietnam. You cannot be in between Vietnam and Cambodia. They are nation states that share a border.

The beauty is, the fun hasn't even started. The dem's couldn't even get out of August before losing this.

I Love you G. Your main appreciation of Bush seems to be that you like his dirty-tricks "kick-em in the nuts" style of politics. Do you actually care for his politics or is it the lying and mud slinging that turns you on?

As for Cambodia where's the evidence against Kerry being there? We've got Kerry's journal and we know that swiftboats operated near the border, and we know US forces regularly crossed the border. What have we got against Kerry?

True, in one mistatement in a movie review in 1979 Kerry remembered the wrong president. And Cambodia is the place the SBVT founder John O'Neil said Kerry could never have gone or he'd be court-martialed; yet as it turns out O'Neil was in cambodia and admitted it to Nixon in person! So clearly, a court-martial wasn't in the cards.

Now where did that "50 mile" lie come from? Why let's ask a SBVT himself:

(with apologies to the Daily Howler)

GARDNER (some TV interview): Well, let’s clarify what you just said. John Kerry has already admitted that he was not in Cambodia when he was—on Christmas of 1968. He was setting in the city of Sa Dec, which is a small town fifty-some miles from the Cambodian border. Now that’s in his words, from his diary.

And yes, that is in Kerry’s diary. Kerry spent the evening of December 24 in Sa Dec, as Brinkley notes in Tour of Duty (page 219), quoting Kerry’s journal. But as Gardner knows Brinkley spends the ten previous pages describing the rest of that “memorable” day. Were they anywhere close to Cambodia? The answer to Norville’s question was quite simple—yes:

BRINKLEY (page 209): Christmas Eve, 1968, turned out to be memorable for the men of PCF-44 though not in the jingle-bells sense folks were enjoying back home. The only concession to the holiday spirit was that morning’s rare breakfast of scrambled eggs, after which the crew headed their Swift north [from Sa Dec] up the Co Chien river to its junction with the My Tho only miles from the Cambodian border.

Pitiful, isn’t it? For the next ten pages, Brinkley—quoting from Kerry’s journal—describes the firefights the crew engaged in that day. For Wasser, the combat this day was life-changing and yes, these events took place “at a bend just as they were approaching the Cambodian border” (page 214). Were they anywhere near the Cambodian border? The answer was simple—yes, they were. And Gardner, who was on the boat that day, knew they hadn’t just sat in Sa Dec. But knowing that the press didn't have fact-checkers on hand to confirm otherwise, he brazenly lied on national television.

[Stu Gotz]

The 2003 Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States recently came out.

In case Bush's speechwriters are having a hard time getting a grip on his record, here are some stats to help frame it:

Change, real median household income (2003 adjusted dollars)
Bush II: -$1,535
Clinton: +$5,489
Bush I: -$1,314

Change, number in poverty
Bush II: +4,280,000
Clinton: -6,433,000
Bush I: +6,269,000

Source (PDF)

[schuss]

John Kerry is not perfect. John Kerry can be a bit aloof, and has played legislative vote-trading games for quite a long time. However, he is nowhere near as bad as Bush is for this country. You know what will happen under Kerry? For the first 2 years at least, the same as Clinton: Gridlock. What happens in government gridlock? People do whats best, which ends up benefiting everyone. Not to mention Kerry has a health plan that makes sense and won't cost us something like 7 Trillion to fund (which bush's plan will, the source is business week btw, not exactly a liberal rag). Bush has been running this country into the ground in every possible way since he took office, and I simply cannot see how he has done a whit of good for anything (he did depose saddam and the taliban, but bungled the aftermath).
As a fiscal conservative myself (despite being a rather involved dem), I cannot see how old-school republicans can tolerate this neocon travesty of an administration. Don't want to vote for kerry? Write in McCain. Just not this sack of useless trash.

[EPSkis]

Originally posted by Will
Who?

Name them.

Not those that have filed "statements" based on what another person told them them they saw 35 years ago, but those who are shown by the military record to have served on the same boat as Kerry or within 100 feet. AKA - eyewitnesses.

Huh.... looks like your "dozens upon dozens" have diminished some... Who have you got now?

Also - I don't care what Rush said, that 4.5 number is partisan bullshit. Kerry served TWO tours in vietnam, for a combined total of 6 months. The Navy thought so much of his service that they made him an aide to an admiral at the end.

Name them? You asked:

Daniel Aguilar, OSC, USNR-R
Pat Alexander
Roy Alexander*
Robert Anderson, EN2, USN (Ret.)
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.*
Arturo Arias, QM2, USN (Ret.)
Daniel V. Armstrong, BM2*
Douglas Armstrong, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Harry Ball, Cdr., USN (Ret.)
Ray Lewis Ballew*
Sonny Barber, USN (Ret.)
John Bare
Alexander Bass*
George "M." Bates*
Richard Beers*
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN*
Edward J. “Lord Mort” Bergin, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Henry “Buddy” Berman, QM2*
Herb Blume, Lt.
Barry Bogart, EN2*
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN* (Ret.)
M.T. Boone*
Benny Booth
David Borden*
Carl Bowman
Vern Boyd*
David M. Bradley, LCdr.*
Robert Bradley, Lt. USNR - inactive
Robert “Friar Tuck” Brant, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Briggs*
Carlyle J. Brown, EN2*
Donald Brown, RD3
Kenneth "Buck" Buchholz, GMM3*
Michael C. Burton
Tom Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.*
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR*
James Carter
Billy Carwile, EN3*
Virgil Chambers, RD3
Jack Chenoweth, Capt., USNR, (Ret.)*
William Colgan, RD3*
Bill Collins*
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR*
James M. Corrigan, QM3*
Terry Cosstello, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Tom Costarino
Toi Dang, GM3
John H. Davis, Lt.*
William K. Daybert,Cdr.*
James Deal*
Richard Dodson, Capt., USN (Ret.)
John Dooley, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Dale Duffield, CWO USN (Ret.)*
Robert G. Elder, Lt.*
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Bill Eshelman
Claude Farmer, Cdr., USNR (Ret.)
Michael Fasold
William Ferris, Capt., USNR (Ret.)
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN (Ret.)*
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
James Foster, GMG1, USN (Ret.)
William E. Franke, Lt.jg*
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)*
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR (Ret.)*
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3*
Ray Fuller, GMG3*
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR (Ret.)*
Steve Gardner*
Bill Garlow*
Les Garrett*
Tony Gisclair, BOSN2*
Robert Gnau, QM2*
Donald Goldberg*
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN (Ret.)*
Kenneth Golden*
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN*
Roy Graham
John C. Graves*
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN (Ret.)*
Dennis L. Green, GMG*
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR*
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.*
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
F.L. Skip "Mustang Sally" Gunther, Lt. USN*
Louis Hahn ETCM (SW) USN (Ret.)
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR (Ret.)*
Don C. Hammer, Lt.*
Rock Harmon*
Keith C. Harris, RD2*
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN*
Stirlin Harris, BM2*
Gene Hart, RD3*
Bob Hastings*
Curt Hatler*
John Hecker, RD3*
Chuck Herman, RD3*
Raul Herrera*
Tom Herritage*
Grant "Skip" Hibbard*
Bill Hickey
Rocky Hildreth*
Gary Hite
Jim Hoffmann, RD3
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN (Ret.)*
William P. Holden, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR*
Duane Holman, QM2
Robert Hooke, Lt.*
Bill Hoole
Andy Horne*
John Howell*
Warren Hudson*
Charles W. Hunt, EN3*
Robert Hunt*
Gail E. "Ike" Ikerd, Cdr. (Ret.)*
Bert Jeffries, QM3
Richard Jenkins
John Paul Jones, QM3*
Tom Jones*
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN (Ret.)*
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Thomas H. Klemash*
Kenneth Knipple, EN1*
Robert Koger, QM2*
Mike Kovanen, RD3*
Bob Kreyer, GMG2*
Jack K. Lane, GMG3*
William T. Langham*
William Lannom*
Alan Lapat
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN (Ret.)*
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jim Madden, RD3*
William S. Mann, Jr., Lt.jg*
Jim Marohn, GMG3*
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR*
Tom Mason, Lt.*
Donald Matras, EN2 (Ret.)*
Thomas Mason, Lt.*
Louis Masterson*
Donald Matras, EN3
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR*
Kenneth B. McGhee*
James McNeal, ENC*
Errol Meleander, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Jack Merkley, Lt.*
James M. Miller*
John Miller, ENC (Ret.)
Martin Miller, ENC (Ret.)*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3*
Edward Morgan, Capt. USN*
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.*
Tom Morrill, EN3*
Wayne H. Moser*
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.*
Frank Mueller*
Marc Milligan, GMG2*
Ed Mundy*
Van Odell, GMG1
Richard Olsen, Lt.*
Richard O'Mara, RD2, USN
John O'Neill, Lt., USN, (Ret.)*
Albert Owens*
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR (Ret.)*
Richard Pees, Lt., USNR
James Penkert, ENC
Thomas Petersik
Robert Phalen, GMG2*
Charles Plumley*
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN (Ret.)*
Chuck Rabel*
Bob Reller
Steve Renfro, RD3, USN (Ret.)
Don Renshaw, EN2, USN PCF 93
Frank Rockwell
Bill Rogers, Lt.*
Patrick Sage GMG3*
Gary W. Sallee, BM2*
Burke Salsi, RD2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3*
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3*
Robert Scattergood*
Jim Schneider, EN2*
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN (Ret.)*
Jack Shamley*
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
Paul Shepherd, QM2*
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg*
William Shumadine*
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2*
John Singleton, ENC
Darryl Skuce, GMG2*
John J. Skura*
Gerald H. Smith*
Bob Smith, GMG2
Gerald Smith
Roy Smith*
B. Tony Snesko BM2*
Mike Solhaug*
Dennis Spranger
Jack Spratt, LCDR*
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN (Ret.)*
James Steffes*
Fred E. Stith, USN (Ret.)*
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN (Ret.)*
Weymouth Symmes, RDM*
Tony Taylor
W.P. "Sonny" Taylor*
Dewey Thedford
James P. Thomas*
Eldon Thompson, Lt.jg*
Larry Thurlow, Lt.jg
Joseph Timmons, RD3, USN
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC*
Gary E. Townsend*
William F. Trainer*
Mark Tuft, Capt., USN (Ret.)
Michael Turley, BM2*
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3*
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, Lt.jg*
David Wallace*
Greg Ward, EN2*
Larry J. “Waz” Wasikowski, Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve*
Pete Webster*
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN (Ret.)*
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3*
George Wendell, En1, USN (Ret.)
Bruce Wentworth, Lt., USNR
George H. White, II*
R. Shelton White, Lt.*
Gary K. Whittington, EN3*
James D. Wiggins*
Tom Wilkins
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.*
Bernard Wolff*
Thomas W. Wright, Cdr., USN (Ret.)*
John Wyatt, GMG*
John Yeoman, Lt.*
* signifying that they signed the original document from May 4, 2004.

Served directly with him / within 100ft of him?
All are listed above. The nature of the Swift Boats was to fight in groups. You fought alongside other boats. Of all the men he served with, he's been able to convince a half dozen of them to support him. How about other Officers that served with him? THREE out of 23 support him.

(As you can see, we're WAY beyond "dozens".)

I have no idea what Rush says or has had to say about the issue - I used to listen occasionally, but stopped when he got busted for being a drug addict. So what DOES he have to say about this whole thing? I'm sure it's interesting.

And no, my friend - a tour of duty in Vietnam is/was ONE YEAR.
John Kerry served 4 months and 12 days. A far cry from a SINGLE complete "Tour", let alone TWO.

[Will]

No.

Not all the members of SBVT.

The ones who are shown by the military record to have been eyewitnesses to Kerry's actions! It's no good that these people were in vietnam at some point in time and on a swiftboat. If these people are going to say that the official Navy record is wrong then we need evidence that they were, in fact, eyewitnesses.

That joke of a list you posted is just folks with a grudge about Kerry's 1971 testimony.

Hell, I was in texas at one point in time but if I were to say that "I saw George Bush do a line of coke 8 feet long and then fuck a 12 year old" you would rightly ask me for some kind of proof that I actually could have seen this. Were I a SBVT I would refuse to provide any.

And, yes.... Kerry did serve two tours. Go here and read. You can try and discount it as a partisan news site, but The Columbia Journalism Review really only gives a shit about the press getting the facts right, they don't give a damn about either party (watch them slam Kerry reporters for not fact-checking his statements about the loss of public vs. private sector jobs).

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by Will
I Love you G. Your main appreciation of Bush seems to be that you like his dirty-tricks "kick-em in the nuts" style of politics. Do you actually care for his politics or is it the lying and mud slinging that turns you on?

As for Cambodia where's the evidence against Kerry being there? We've got Kerry's journal and we know that swiftboats operated near the border, and we know US forces regularly crossed the border. What have we got against Kerry?

True, in one mistatement in a movie review in 1979 Kerry remembered the wrong president. And Cambodia is the place the SBVT founder John O'Neil said Kerry could never have gone or he'd be court-martialed; yet as it turns out O'Neil was in cambodia and admitted it to Nixon in person! So clearly, a court-martial wasn't in the cards.

Now where did that "50 mile" lie come from? Why let's ask a SBVT himself:

(with apologies to the Daily Howler)



And yes, that is in Kerry’s diary. Kerry spent the evening of December 24 in Sa Dec, as Brinkley notes in Tour of Duty (page 219), quoting Kerry’s journal. But as Gardner knows Brinkley spends the ten previous pages describing the rest of that “memorable” day. Were they anywhere close to Cambodia? The answer to Norville’s question was quite simple—yes:

BRINKLEY (page 209): Christmas Eve, 1968, turned out to be memorable for the men of PCF-44 though not in the jingle-bells sense folks were enjoying back home. The only concession to the holiday spirit was that morning’s rare breakfast of scrambled eggs, after which the crew headed their Swift north [from Sa Dec] up the Co Chien river to its junction with the My Tho only miles from the Cambodian border.

Pitiful, isn’t it? For the next ten pages, Brinkley—quoting from Kerry’s journal—describes the firefights the crew engaged in that day. For Wasser, the combat this day was life-changing and yes, these events took place “at a bend just as they were approaching the Cambodian border” (page 214). Were they anywhere near the Cambodian border? The answer was simple—yes, they were. And Gardner, who was on the boat that day, knew they hadn’t just sat in Sa Dec. But knowing that the press didn't have fact-checkers on hand to confirm otherwise, he brazenly lied on national television.

Oddly, his Senate floor speech states it was "seared...seared into him" but his diary tells a different story. weird, you'd think if something was seared into you, you'd remember times and dates. Kind of like "where were you when Kennedy was shot, Challenger went down etc."

Yes I realize Kerry served near the Cambodian border. However, he was not in Cambodia as he has claimed numerous times. Thus, his incorrect claim that he was fighting an illegal war for Nixon, who wasn't even president.

Oh, and since you asked I really enjoy the brand of politics/policy Bush/Rove employ. It weeds out the weak nicely.

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Oh, and since you asked I really enjoy the brand of politics/policy Bush/Rove employ. It weeds out the weak nicely.

You should move to Venezuela. Seriously.

[Stu Gotz]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Oh, and since you asked I really enjoy the brand of politics/policy Bush/Rove employ. It weeds out the weak nicely.

Its too bad that the class bully is also the village idiot. Although that is usually the case.

[Blurred]

http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/m.../room_care.jpg

[The Reverend Floater]

Originally posted by BlurredElevens
http://brawl-hall.com/gallery/data/m.../room_care.jpg

Yup. This is exactly the problem.