Proposal from Breck

[The Dude]

saw this article this morning:

Breck proposes Peak 8 lift

BRECKENRIDGE - What many consider to be some of the best advanced terrain the Breckenridge Ski Resort has to offer - Imperial Bowl, the Lake Chutes and Peak 7 Bowl - has been available only to those willing to earn their turns by hiking.

That could change soon.

Bringing to life a desire on its wish list since the late 1990s, the resort in October will formally propose to the U.S. Forest Service a new chairlift to run from the top of Chair 6 up the spine of Imperial Bowl.

Should it be approved, the detachable quad could be ready for operation as early as the 2005-2006 winter, depending on how fast construction goes.

The Breckenridge "Summit Lift," as the resort is calling it, would be relatively low capacity (600 passengers per hour, compared to the 2,800 per hour that Breck's Colorado Super Chair transports), and would separate its chairs by up to 300 feet, to give the entire structure a minimal wind resistance.

It would unload at 12,840 feet, about 60 feet from the summit of Peak 8, and would be the highest lift in North America - surpassing Loveland's Chair 9, which peaks at 12,700 feet.

It also would be fast, rising 940 vertical feet in 2.7 minutes, and would directly access both the south- and north-facing Peak 8 bowls as well as the Lake Chutes and Peak 7 Bowl, with a short traverse in either direction.

In a sense, it would transform a ski area that has often been labeled a beginner's mountain.

"This would probably change the perception of Breckenridge," said director of mountain operations Rick Sramek, who is leading the resort's push to get the lift approved. "It would certainly change the way advanced skiers skied the mountain."

The lift-building process

The lift approval process to this point has been relatively informal, one the resort has used to feel out the potential of the project. It began last fall with a general, here's-what-we'd-like-to-do briefing of the U.S. Forest Service.

In that meeting, Sramek outlined what the resort had done to investigate the impact the lift would have on the environment, both biologically and botanically. It would have little impact, the resort said.

After creating topographical images to represent what the lift would look like and exactly where it would be located, Sramek and lift director Jon Mauch held a "courtesy meeting" along with Dillon Ranger District Ranger Rick Newton and winter sports administrator Joe Foreman to alert the Breckenridge Town Council and Summit County commissioners of the project last week.

Both Breckenridge Mayor Ernie Blake and Commissioner Bob French - who deals with Breck issues - gave the project a thumbs up.

Sramek said the resort will present its formal proposal to Newton - who will ultimately decide whether or not the lift goes in - in mid-October.

According to Newton, the two primary cons the Forest Service will consider are the following: boundary issues - will this encourage people to use the ski area more to access the backcountry? - and visuals - how intrusive, if at all, would the lift be to those looking up from the town?

Newton, who is in his first year as DRD ranger, said that because there is no timber in the proposed impact area, "wildlife issues and ground-impact issues are pretty benign."

He also said that although public input would be something he'll consider, he's unlikely to be swayed in either direction by letter volume. "It's not a voting game," he said.

On that note, Mauch said, "I'm confident it'll get approved, personally."



Dividing the riders

The Forest Service's concerns aside, a go-ahead by Newton will likely divide a local population of skiers and snowboarders who can be at odds over what's best for Summit County's most visited ski area.

On one hand, although the lift wouldn't affect the resort's overall capacity of 14,500, it would certainly increase the number of people that frequent the exclusive, above-treeline terrain. Many see this as a negative.

"It's just going to open up too much terrain for people who shouldn't be on it," said Breckenridge local Monica Minogue, an avid Imperial Bowl hiker who has skied the mountain for 21 years. "It's too easy access with a lift - not to mention an eyesore.

"They (the resort) see it one way, we see it another way. They're a business, that's what they see it as. We've been skiing it for a long time, and we like it the way it is. There's enough other terrain to use, that I know they have access to. Why do they have to bring a lift to the top of Peak 8?"

On the other hand, the summit lift could help ease congestion on the two-person T-Bar, which often becomes crowded and frustrates those who yearn for a more efficient option.

The lift also would cut a 30-minute trip to the top of Imperial into one that takes less than three minutes.

"I hike up there all the time," said Scott Yapkowitz, a Breck local of nine years. "I get enough exercise; I wanna go ski some good terrain. It'll turn Breck into a better mountain. And it makes it easier on the patrollers, too - then you can go up there and ski the waist-deep days without worrying about slides."

Sramek, who has worked at the resort since 1973 and was ski patrol director for 12 years, called the proposed lift a "guest-experience thing," aimed at improving the options available to advanced skiers and snowboarders.

He said that were the lift to be approved, the resort would likely begin construction next spring.

Cost would be around the $3 million range, but that shouldn't be a problem, according to Sramek. "This is one of those projects that has quite a bit of internal support," he said.

After the resort presents its proposal to Newton, there will be a 30-day public comment period followed by another of equal length once the USFS has created an environmental assessment.

From there, Newton said he'll make a final decision "within a few weeks" - or right around Jan. 1, 2005.

article is found here.

Dude

[Blurred]

It's going to happen. I wonder how sweet the bumps in Lake Chutes will be now. I can't wait to have the Breck ski patrol chase me down the SKY chutes to Copper....that could be fun. I guess on the other hand Crystal is that much closer.

[freshie247]

Hey El Duderino,thanx for the post,very interesting! I've never liked the crowds of beaters,lack of pitch ,congestion on the T-bar,parking,....etc at Breck. In my 14 season here,I've only skied the place a handful of times.I have to agree that this will change perceptions of Breck,even if only slightly. They talk about how fast it will get skiers to the top,that's because they don't have very far to go!

On the other hand: I think the new lift will present great opportunities for inexperienced patrollers to be 1st on scene for the inevitable carnage that will follow.The times I've been there I've seen several doinks body pack their way down Peak 8 & 7.

[Theodore]

If they do this will the Tbar stick around, or will it be replaced by a 2 person chair?

[Crinkle]

It will make Breck slightly more entising. But granted a very large number of people that should not be there will go there. That is a headache for patrollers and the mountain, just more gapers to dodge.

[shera]

Pretty sad news for me. My first hiking ever was up there. Take five steps and stop to gasp. I always thought the hiking terrain was the best thing about Breck after I got past the groomer stage. The terrain isn't really that serious up there, but it'll be sad to see it turned into a mogul field.

I still think about the old clock tower and get annoyed when I see those 5th Ave style shops.

But this is Breck and it's silly to think of it as anything but a mass produced skiing experience. I had a lot of good days there learning how to ski and I can't help but hope other folks will too.

edit - Thinking about it further, Breck lacks in the way of mogul runs, so this could work out well for those that like that sort of thing.

[Below Zero]

Originally posted by Theodore
If they do this will the Tbar stick around, or will it be replaced by a 2 person chair?

"On the other hand, the summit lift could help ease congestion on the two-person T-Bar, which often becomes crowded and frustrates those who yearn for a more efficient option. "

So from this quote, I guess they will be keeping the T-Bar. I say, just put in another T-Bar.

I don't like the idea. I really enjoy the hike to the top of Peak 7.

[The Dude]

That was the first t-bar I ever used with a snowboard attached to my feet and I hated it. After getting dragged the last 50 yards of the ride I learned to have both feet strapped in going forward. I'd hate to see it go, although I think it is inevitable that it will be replaced someday with a chairlift.

[Lane Meyer]

Whatever they do, Breckenridge is still flat and windy. If you really like to ski challenging terrain, you will go somewhere else, or hike to get after it OB elsewhere in the Tenmile Range.

Having frequented Breck during my CC days before I started realizing that ABasin was the place to be, I say it sucks they are putting in the lift. The Lake Chutes were a nice hidden gem that will no doubt go the way of the Fingers (which as many of you know now last about 10 minutes on a pow day) with a new fast lift over them. Too bad.

[CUBUCK]

This is too bad. The hiking was one of the few things at Breck I really enjoyed. I can see this lift being shut down half the year for weind though. So maybe it won't be that bad.

[Hacksaw]

Originally posted by BlurredElevens
I can't wait to have the Breck ski patrol chase me down the SKY chutes to Copper....that could be fun.

It may not be that far off, that there will be an "Interconect Route" (ie the old Paul Ramer, Grand Tour) like in Utah, from A-Basin to Vail one day............

BTW, a lot of times the Sky Chutes really suck, because of their westerly aspect. Mainly just hard wind slab up high.

Cheers,
Halsted

[homerjay]

Terrible idea in my opinion. The only way to get away from people at that awful ski hill is to hike, now they're eliminating that. Plus, whoever said it is right, it'll be shut down for wind so much. Why not put a poma up there? That'll help alleviate the clusterfuck at the T-bar.

[iskibc]

Ohhhhhh how I love thee Gaperidge Resort

I guess all the Bro-Brahs in Breck will be super stoked for the super sickety sick hike-to terrain to be finally lift accessed so they can get some sickety sick sick sick laps in with all their other bro-brah crew.

Tip to recent transplants of CO: Avoid the place like the plague and your skiing experience here will be much happier.

[homerjay]

Goal for 2004-2005: zero breck days.

[Shake Zula]

I really enjoy the urban skiing experience that Breck offers.

NOT

[teledave]

Originally posted by homerjay
Terrible idea in my opinion. The only way to get away from people at that awful ski hill is to hike, now they're eliminating that. Plus, whoever said it is right, it'll be shut down for wind so much. Why not put a poma up there? That'll help alleviate the clusterfuck at the T-bar.

Cause Texans can't negotiate surface lifts?

My comment on lift expansions in general, we need more surface lifts! Some of the best runs I've ever had were laps off of T's & Pomas, they're incredibly efficient at moving people but the masses stay away from them because they can't stand up and stay in the track.

[summit]

This should give Gapenridge the steepest bump course in the country!

I've never been a Breck (mtn or town) fan... they keep sealing my deal.

[AntiSoCalSkier]

Originally posted by teledave
Cause Texans can't negotiate surface lifts?

My comment on lift expansions in general, we need more surface lifts! Some of the best runs I've ever had were laps off of T's & Pomas, they're incredibly efficient at moving people but the masses stay away from them because they can't stand up and stay in the track.

I'll second that. Surface tows have lots of advantages. They're cheap (at least I've always assumed that they're cheaper than even a fixed grip chair), wind resistant, and fast (faster than a fixed grip chair in most cases). The only disadvantages are the fact that they can only ascend moderate terrain (e.g. you couldn't replace the top half of the Mammoth gondola with a T-bar), gapers have a hard time on them (in many cases this is an advantage), and that snowboarders often refuse to double up, and insist on going single.

A surface lift is cheap way to provide access to/from steep terrain that is geared towards expert skiers. I'm surprised more ski areas haven't used them in their expansion plans. Vail has a few running along the ridge that are put to very good use. Crested Butte has also taken advantage of surface lifts. I can think of a lot of hills that could expand their terrain, by putting a surface tow up a well-established boot pack (in many cases, adding the lift "destroys" a backcountry area, but adds another one, since you can get even further out).

[Theodore]

Thats kinda why I was wondering about the tbar. I know it has its wind advantages, but I thought a reason for its survival might have been to keep gapers to a minimum even though there are easy ways down. If they put a chair lift in that goes higher, than the 'expert' terrain that the t-bar kept newbs out of will be easily accesible to them.

[Tavi]

Why the hell would you put a detachable quad at the top of chair 6 when chair 6 is a super low capacity lift. They must be planning to put a high capacity lift in to replace 6 as well. That area of the mountain is the only thing that makes Breck tolerable. A more crowded chair 6 and a new chair that will rarely open due to high winds? I must be missing the point.

[shera]

Originally posted by Tavi
Why the hell would you put a detachable quad at the top of chair 6 when chair 6 is a super low capacity lift. They must be planning to put a high capacity lift in to replace 6 as well. That area of the mountain is the only thing that makes Breck tolerable. A more crowded chair 6 and a new chair that will rarely open due to high winds? I must be missing the point.

I dunno. I'd rather ski peak 10 than 6 chair. Seems like way too many people trash all that terrain so fast and it also seems to be 10 degrees colder than anywhere on the 4 mountains. Some kind of cold sink in that little basin or something. And there's really no pitch anywhere. The trees are kinda cool. But that snow isn't even really soft because the wind and sun just work it so hard. The snow always feel so weird under my feet there.

I'd guess that the new chair would be accessed by a peak 8 quad. Two fast chair rides to the very top. That'd actually be pretty amazing. Maybe first chair on a 12" day would be very worth it. Ach they'll have to do avy control on all of that, so I dunno. And it'll be moguled up anyways.

/too much jibberjabber

[Tavi]

Originally posted by SheRa
I dunno. I'd rather ski peak 10 than 6 chair. Seems like way too many people trash all that terrain so fast and it also seems to be 10 degrees colder than anywhere on the 4 mountains. Some kind of cold sink in that little basin or something. And there's really no pitch anywhere. The trees are kinda cool. But that snow isn't even really soft because the wind and sun just work it so hard. The snow always feel so weird under my feet there.

/too much jibberjabber

Ya, 10 can be very good early. We usually try to hit 10 early, 6 mid morning, copper top for late morning, then lick the Devil's Croch, Tom's Baby etc., for the afternoon if the snow is good. Although 6 is not scary steep, it usually has good powder stash all day if you know where to look. I always take powder over steeps but prefer both. The other nice thing about 6 is that you can head along the ridge for the bowls on the t-bar side, which usually have deep turns, without having to ride the t-bar. I guess it reminds me a bit of Blackcomb. "Little Blackcomb" mind you.

[jonski]

I reckon they'll put that in.

From the sounds of the description, it actually wont be so much from the top of 6, as from the top of the new 4 chair (SuperConnect), or near enough.

Then its a case of Quicksilver -> 4 -> Summit lift. thats about 12mins from the parking lot in Town/The Maggie, to the summit. as long as you don't get the unavoidable stops on Quick where the gapers get freaked by the 2 chairs !! Even if you factor in 6, its only gonna take 20 mins, 35 for the complete idiot gapers!

As for T-bar, I asked the same question when I used to work there. Apparently there are a few things; the wind doesn't affect it so much, Forest Service wouldn't allow the 'eye-sore' of a detachable, but also the actual lift line. The reason that the T-bar has such a weird path up and down the mountain is because of tha fact that they had a real hard time getting enough depth in the rockface to set adequate footings for the T-bar, let alone a chair!

Unfortunately, it will increase traffic, although probly only hugely noticeable in Horseshoe and the T-bar side, afterall we have to be pretty lucky for the Lake chutes to be open consistently till later in the season.

However, as spoiled as it all may get, I reckon it could have advantages. Under Breck's area operating license, they have to maintain the terrain on the backside of Lake Chutes, and the terrain just the other side of the boundary as you hike up to Lake and go by at WayOut/Double barrel all the way down to boneyard and 6 chair before it joins back up with the boundary by E-Chair. Although at the bottom its flat, the back side of Lake looks pretty fun. If they are looking to expand that, with say just a simple fixed grip to return you, it MAY JUST, POSSIBLY be worth it.

However for now, the real big thing is it probly helps with the skier density figures - invaluable if they are to get the gondola from miners lot in Town put in up to the proposed Peak 7 Base area, and then across to the redeveloped Peak 8 Base area. If it looks as if you can spread people around more and reduce crowding, its easier to get the agreement to bring more physical numbers onto the hill and not be 'overcrowded'.

anyway, going on ab it now so...

just my $0.02....and all hearsya and theory!

j

[jonski]

ohh, and just quickly, Jon Mauch has been in the lift game for a hella long time, and on an international level pretty much too.

If he's confident it'll happen, it probly will!!

[Below Zero]

Originally posted by jonski
I reckon they'll put that in.

However, as spoiled as it all may get, I reckon it could have advantages.

Texas? Kentucky?