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Thread: FEB. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER

  1. #26
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    Originally posted by Yossarian
    what gave you that idea?
    Do ideas come from the brain or from the mind?

  2. #27
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    Natty, here is a little graphic on those nefarious 527's. Read the Swift Boat book. I assure it has absolutely nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with Kerry's betrayal of his "band of brothers"

    Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
    Receipts: $ 158,750
    OpenSecrets.org Description: "SBVT represents Vietnam Swift boat veterans who are critical of Democrat John Kerry's decision to make his military service a major part of his campaign for president. The group questions Kerry's record in Vietnam and denounces his anti-war activities following his military service. The group's donors include some major Republican contributors."

    It sure is a good thing that Kerry doesn't have any 527's doing his dirty work. Except these, of course:

    Media Fund
    Receipts: $ 28,127,488
    OpenSecrets.org Description: "One of the leading Democratic interest groups dedicated to defeating President Bush in November. Plans to raise close to $100 million for a massive issue-ad campaign to support the Democratic presidential nominee. The ads will air in 17 battleground states."

    America Coming Together
    Receipts: $26,905,450
    OpenSecrets.org Description: "One of the leading Democratic interest groups dedicated to defeating President Bush in November. Run by longtime Democratic operatives and financed in part by wealthy Democratic donors, the group plans a massive voter mobilization effort in 17 battleground states."

    MoveOn.org
    Receipts: $9,086,102
    OpenSecrets.org Description: "Begun in 1998 to protest the impeachment of President Clinton, the group has become a powerful political force since then. Its political action committee, the MoveOn PAC, spends millions of dollars to support the election of Democratic candidates. The MoveOn.org Voter Fund is raising soft money, which may be contributed in unlimited amounts, for TV ads in key battleground states that are critical of President Bush."
    "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher

  3. #28
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    Originally posted by mrw
    My problem with Kerry is that it looks like he did his brief tour knowing that he was going to run for office and orchestrated the whole affair to make himself look heroic.Most guys with his type of wounds never even bothered to apply for a purple heart.They got stitched up and hit the trail.
    Your theory has two problems:

    1) If Kerry's service was a calculated effort to get into politics then why did he protest the war? He was hated beyond all reason for his anti-war activities (far more so than today, remember the Vietnam war was popular once).
    Imagine it's the early 1970s, who do you think is more likely to get elected:
    - Yale-educated returning vet with several medals (aka - captain america)
    vs.
    - Ungrateful long haired America hating freak who just went on the TV to tell mom and pop America that their sons had been killing babies in 'nam

    If Kerry was thinking politics when it came to his military service then he would have never protested the war. Didn't he lose his first political race in part because of his anti-war activities?

    2) According the rules of the Navy at the time, a sailor does not determine if he is up for a medal, that is left to his commander. Kerry's commander at the time of his first purple heart (Grant Hibbard) now questions whether Kerry deserved that medal, implying that Kerry somehow demanded the medal. Of course, the reality is that for Kerry to get his purple heart Hibbard had to recommend him for it! As you might have guessed Hibbard now hates Kerry for his anti-war activities.
    More info here

    And didn't Bob Dole's first purple heart come from a scratch to the leg from a fellow soldier's grenade that bounced off a tree? Sure, he lost his arm to German fire later, but I don't hear you calling him a pussy in regard to the first medal.
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  4. #29
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    Who needs 527s when you have Scaife and Coors as your sugar daddies doing all of you dirty work.
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  5. #30
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    Originally posted by Will
    Your theory has two problems:

    1) If Kerry's service was a calculated effort to get into politics then why did he protest the war? He was hated beyond all reason for his anti-war activities (far more so than today, remember the Vietnam war was popular once).
    Imagine it's the early 1970s, who do you think is more likely to get elected:
    - Yale-educated returning vet with several medals (aka - captain america)
    vs.
    - Ungrateful long haired America hating freak who just went on the TV to tell mom and pop America that their sons had been killing babies in 'nam

    If Kerry was thinking politics when it came to his military service then he would have never protested the war. Didn't he lose his first political race in part because of his anti-war activities?

    2) According the rules of the Navy at the time, a sailor does not determine if he is up for a medal, that is left to his commander. Kerry's commander at the time of his first purple heart (Grant Hibbard) now questions whether Kerry deserved that medal, implying that Kerry somehow demanded the medal. Of course, the reality is that for Kerry to get his purple heart Hibbard had to recommend him for it! As you might have guessed Hibbard now hates Kerry for his anti-war activities.
    More info here

    And didn't Bob Dole's first purple heart come from a scratch to the leg from a fellow soldier's grenade that bounced off a tree? Sure, he lost his arm to German fire later, but I don't hear you calling him a pussy in regard to the first medal.
    This country was as left to center as it got in the 70's the long haired anti war types were what passed as "cool" True to form, he tried to hitch himself to a populist movement. AND, I didn't call Kerry a pussy. I think he is a calculating no good power hungry scum bag who would fuck his mother on national teevee if it would get him into the White House. That said, that doesn't make him much different than the other guy.

  6. #31
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    Originally posted by Will
    Your theory has two problems:

    1) If Kerry's service was a calculated effort to get into politics then why did he protest the war? He was hated beyond all reason for his anti-war activities (far more so than today, remember the Vietnam war was popular once).
    Imagine it's the early 1970s, who do you think is more likely to get elected:
    - Yale-educated returning vet with several medals (aka - captain america)
    vs.
    - Ungrateful long haired America hating freak who just went on the TV to tell mom and pop America that their sons had been killing babies in 'nam

    If Kerry was thinking politics when it came to his military service then he would have never protested the war. Didn't he lose his first political race in part because of his anti-war activities?

    2) According the rules of the Navy at the time, a sailor does not determine if he is up for a medal, that is left to his commander. Kerry's commander at the time of his first purple heart (Grant Hibbard) now questions whether Kerry deserved that medal, implying that Kerry somehow demanded the medal. Of course, the reality is that for Kerry to get his purple heart Hibbard had to recommend him for it! As you might have guessed Hibbard now hates Kerry for his anti-war activities.
    More info here

    And didn't Bob Dole's first purple heart come from a scratch to the leg from a fellow soldier's grenade that bounced off a tree? Sure, he lost his arm to German fire later, but I don't hear you calling him a pussy in regard to the first medal.

    Bob Dole's 1996 run wasn't a paint by numbers "D-Day to Berlin" either.

    Whether Kerry deserved the medals or not isn't really the issue. He served. That in itself should be enough. The problem is the lying about the service. the lying about locations to insinuate having been mislead by a leader into fighting an illegal war. Having eight times said, some of it on the senate floor that he was in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968. Then in some of those instances blaming Nixon(President-elect, not President at the time). It's ridiculous.

    Then the defense of his assertions. Well he was within 50 miles of the Cambodian border. No shit, that only comprises Vietnam, almost the whole country. Then it's well the SBVT is supported by Republicans. Great, most 527's are politically motivated. Now, the purple heart wound is said to have been self inflicted. What does Kerry care? He threw them out like yesterday's trash. Or was it a WWII veteran's medal? Or another vietnam vet's medal.

    Why did he even bring it up in the first place? or say the subsequent 27 million times.
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  7. #32
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    Originally posted by mrw
    I think he is a calculating no good power hungry scum bag who would fuck his mother on national teevee if it would get him into the White House.
    If that's the case, why has he waited so long to pursue the Presidency? I mean the guy's been in the Senate for twenty years now.

  8. #33
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    For the sake of argument, let's assume your statement above to be true.

    How can this possibly be worse than lying about motives for a war that has cost thousands of lives? Which "lies" did more damage, Mr. G? I know people like you only count "coalition of the willing" lives, but have you any f'ing idea how many people in total have died because of the man on whose nuts you swing?

    Gimme your best guess. Let's hear you say it and then tell me it's worth it and that GW Shitforbrains made the right call, relative to all of the human life that was lost.[/b]


    Last edited by The Reverend Floater; 08-24-2004 at 03:54 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Originally posted by mrw
    This country was as left to center as it got in the 70's the long haired anti war types were what passed as "cool"
    And yet Nixon still got re-elected (how many yippies were elected?). Maybe hippies were cool and they got a lot of press, but if you wanted to get into politics you had to be (at the very least) a moderate.
    Joining a group like VVAW was political suicide. They got a lot of press, but they still were seen by mainstream America as ungrateful america-haters. If political power was Kerry's ultimate goal at the time, then he went about it in a very bizarre way.

    edit to add - As for the Cambodia nonsense, does this help?
    Last edited by Will; 08-24-2004 at 02:36 PM.
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  10. #35
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    Originally posted by mr_gyptian
    That in itself is one of the most outrageous betrayals of one's country possible.
    I think there are a couple others.

    1. Lying directly to the face of poor, working Americans about how your tax plan will affect their ability to eat (and grossly misrepresenting the opponent's as well).

    2. Sending kids hastily to war.

    These, in my opinion, are much more important than any of these things Kerry's being challenged on.

    If the debate is about honesty, Bush loses.
    If the debate is about service to your country, Bush loses.

    Problem is, people get so caught up in rhetoric and unjustified claims, they don't see past them to what's really going on.

  11. #36
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    Those swift boat for 'truth' guys are the biggest sacks of shit to hit any campaign in recent memory. Makes Willie Horton look like a birthday card. It's stupefying why Bush won't condemn them (except in a backhanded 'I'm against all 527s' way), as it just makes him look even more shady.
    I love that every day more and more inconsistencies and lies are uncovered, particularly the members of the group who a matter of months or years ago were praising Kerry, and had medals awarded based on the same supposedly fraudulent battle reports.
    Bottom line: Kerry is a war hero, something contested only by crazed vets with an axe to grind because of what Kerry (truthfully) said after coming home. I guess if a war hero has the audacity to use his 1st ammendment right to question an unjust war he deserves to be libeled for it. Meanwhile GWB was still AWOL from the guard duty that daddy got him, and tricky Dick ran from Vietnam just as quickly without even 'serving' in the guard.
    Fucking Republican dirty trick campaign, did the same thing to McCain. Shameful.
    [quote][//quote]

  12. #37
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    Originally posted by optics


    1. Lying directly to the face of poor, working Americans about how your tax plan will affect their ability to eat (and grossly misrepresenting the opponent's as well).
    How so? 7.8 million people earning less than $50,000 a year were knocked off the tax rolls.

    This is the stuff I wish these candidates would talk/debate about.
    Last edited by Mcwop; 08-24-2004 at 04:31 PM.
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  13. #38
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    Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
    I only listen to what John has to say about this.
















    That's John Stewart btw...
    Umm, he spells his name "Jon."

  14. #39
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    50 miles from Cambodia is, well ambiguous. Oh and Swift boats were not used for insertions in Cambodia. Whether SF or CIA. CIA operators would have used a native fisherman's boat. not a 50 foot motor boat.

    read:http://froggyruminations.blogspot.co...ift-boats.html

    Mistaking who was president in 1968. Excusable for a junior high schooler. not for a U.S. Senator, especially not one writing a letter in the Boston Globe or speaking in the Senate. As hard as that fact checking might have been.


    Oh and Rev, according to WHO figures 260,000 people were starving to death in Iraq previous to liberation. So, the fact that say 50,000( a number that is most likely double, but for the sake of argument) have been killed in a year and a half. Note, this worse case scenario does not include the innocents killed by "revolutionaries". By absolutely no measure have the quality of life in Iraq not improved for Iraqi's, Baath party loyalists notably excluded.
    Last edited by mr_gyptian; 11-19-2005 at 05:01 PM.
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  15. #40
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    I realize that mr_gyptian has long demonstrated an inability in reading comprehension, but here's the fact checking:
    // From the Start Tribune link posted above.
    John H. Hinderaker and Scott W. Johnson had a jolly good time in a Wednesday commentary "fact-checking" Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's statements about operating his Swift boat in Cambodian waters. When the checkers are acting as surrogate smear artists for the Bush campaign, however, it is necessary to fact-check them as well. What you'll find doesn't reflect well on Hinderaker and Johnson. The fraudulence of what they have written is easy to verify, for those with a mind to look and a desire to know the truth.

    They began by quoting a 1986 Senate floor speech in which Kerry said, "I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and having the president of the United States telling the American people I was not there."

    H & J claim: "Kerry attributed responsibility for his illegal 1968 mission to Richard Nixon, despite the fact that Lyndon Johnson was president at the time." Fact: Indeed, at Christmas 1968, Nixon had been elected but wouldn't take office until January. The discrepancy is understandable, even the more after Kerry corrected the record to say he'd been in error; his runs into Cambodia came in early 1969. H & J have an accurate but niggling criticism -- Kerry was off by a month.

    H & J claim: Kerry biographer Douglas Brinkley omitted a mention of the Cambodian runs from his account of Kerry's life. The implication is, of course, they never happened. Fact: Brinkley, who had access to all of Kerry's journals, told the London Telegraph that, indeed, Kerry was wrong about Christmas 1968. But, Brinkley added, "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off U.S. Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." Brinkley said, "He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off."

    H & J claim: "The Khmer Rouge who allegedly shot at Kerry during his 'secret' mission did not take the field until 1972." Fact: The Khmer Rouge, military wing of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, began its armed combat against the government of Prince Norhodom Sihanouk in 1967, five years earlier than H & J claim. Such a sweet touch, too, by H & J, that use of "allegedly."

    H & J make much of the illegal nature of such trips into Cambodia to further imply they likely didn't happen. They also use loaded words like "embellishment" and snidely employ quotation marks to imply that Kerry made up the story. Aside from Brinkley's testimony, Kerry's story seems quite plausible to me, for a number of reasons.

    First, there was no established border. Both Vietnam and Cambodia claimed parts of the Mekong River delta, a watery area of rivers, tributaries and canals. It was quite easy to slip across, especially by boat (whether inadvertently or with a purpose -- perhaps both).

    Indeed, at the hands of a careless Air America pilot, I flew numerous miles, illegally, into a more northern area of Cambodia in 1971, and nothing was said. My commander, acting on an American POW sighting from one of the indigenous agents I oversaw, got an Air Force forward air control pilot to take him on a reconnaissance flight over the area, for which he received only a mild rebuke.

    That report generated a cross-border raid by a team from MACV-SOG -- a secret group drawn from every service for clandestine operations. They sought, unsuccessfully, to locate the POWS. Such clandestine trips by military and intelligence teams were common; they were the reason MACV-SOG existed. In 1968-69, their main goal in the Mekong probably involved stopping infiltration from Cambodia.

    H & J claim: Passage by Swift boats into Cambodia through the Mekong Delta from their base at Sa Dec was impossible. Fact: Clearly they have no knowledge of the delta. The Swift boats were stationed at Sa Dec precisely because of easy access to the Mekong River complex and the approaches to Cambodia.

    It should not be necessary to plow through all this minute detail about something that happened 35 years ago, wondering whether Kerry remembers it all with precise accuracy. But we must, because the Republican smear machine insists we do. Along with former and current Republican elected officials, Hinderaker and Johnson are serving as part of the effort to smear John Kerry, just as Republicans smeared Sen. John McCain in 2000, then-Sen. Max Cleland in 2002, and critics Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson in 2004. This serves two purposes: to sow doubts in voters' minds about Kerry and to divert attention from the serious issues that really should concern voters: health care costs, the anemic state of the American economy, the mess that is Iraq and the continuing, relentless Republican effort to shift the burden of paying for the federal government from America's wealthy to its middle class.

    As the old saying goes, "Politics ain't beanbag," but this Republican crew, including Hinderaker and Johnson, take the art of slime-throwing to levels of immorality seldom seen. Voters need to awaken to this tactic, and realize how much contempt it shows for the workings of democracy and for the intelligence they bring to the task of choosing this nation's leaders.
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  16. #41
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    From the NYT article:

    The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint
    John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and
    the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war
    medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift
    Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with
    inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof
    by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and
    the men's own statements.

    Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had
    lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

    In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's
    authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr.
    Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired
    rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had
    disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I
    am not going to say anything negative about him." He added,
    "He's a good man."

    In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe
    in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions
    that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I
    admire that."

    George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group,
    flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand
    up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight,
    declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr.
    Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same
    event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now
    speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a
    statement about the "bravado and courage of the young
    officers that ran the Swift boats."

    "Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the
    reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy
    Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat
    drivers."

    Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation
    of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his
    commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories,
    including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and
    "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in
    the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr.
    Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the
    acknowledged leader in his peer group."

  17. #42
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    Originally posted by mr_gyptian
    Oh and Swift boats were not used for insertions in Cambodia. Whether SF or CIA. CIA operators would have used a native fisherman's boat. not a 50 foot motor boat.

    I was certain that you are to young to have been there. Swift boats were used for insertions for your information. What do you suppose Rassmann was doing on PCF-94? And as you have said, none of this really matters. Kerry was there, Bush was .... absent.
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  18. #43
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    Kerry was just confused because of all the Christmas Trees the Cambodians had left up in January. Silly Buddhists.

    Mind boggling that a war hero could be attacked this way in favor of two guys who ran from Vietnam.
    Also worth noting that in addition to the swift boat 'truth' guys who have been caught in lies, every one of the men who were actually on Kerry's boats support him (even the Republicans).
    [quote][//quote]

  19. #44
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    Originally posted by bdog
    I was certain that you are to young to have been there. Swift boats were used for insertions for your information. What do you suppose Rassmann was doing on PCF-94? And as you have said, none of this really matters. Kerry was there, Bush was .... absent.
    I've got gyptian on ignore, but you're right--I personally know a former CIA operative who rode swift boats into and out of Cambodia. He wrote a book about it, too (not about the boats, but his work with Cambodian montagnard types).
    [quote][//quote]

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  21. #46
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    Originally posted by Buster Highmen
    I realize that mr_gyptian has long demonstrated an inability in reading comprehension, but here's the fact checking:
    // From the Start Tribune link posted above.
    John H. Hinderaker and Scott W. Johnson had a jolly good time in a Wednesday commentary "fact-checking" Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's statements about operating his Swift boat in Cambodian waters. When the checkers are acting as surrogate smear artists for the Bush campaign, however, it is necessary to fact-check them as well. What you'll find doesn't reflect well on Hinderaker and Johnson. The fraudulence of what they have written is easy to verify, for those with a mind to look and a desire to know the truth.

    They began by quoting a 1986 Senate floor speech in which Kerry said, "I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and having the president of the United States telling the American people I was not there."

    H & J claim: "Kerry attributed responsibility for his illegal 1968 mission to Richard Nixon, despite the fact that Lyndon Johnson was president at the time." Fact: Indeed, at Christmas 1968, Nixon had been elected but wouldn't take office until January. The discrepancy is understandable, even the more after Kerry corrected the record to say he'd been in error; his runs into Cambodia came in early 1969. H & J have an accurate but niggling criticism -- Kerry was off by a month.

    H & J claim: Kerry biographer Douglas Brinkley omitted a mention of the Cambodian runs from his account of Kerry's life. The implication is, of course, they never happened. Fact: Brinkley, who had access to all of Kerry's journals, told the London Telegraph that, indeed, Kerry was wrong about Christmas 1968. But, Brinkley added, "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off U.S. Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." Brinkley said, "He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off."

    H & J claim: "The Khmer Rouge who allegedly shot at Kerry during his 'secret' mission did not take the field until 1972." Fact: The Khmer Rouge, military wing of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, began its armed combat against the government of Prince Norhodom Sihanouk in 1967, five years earlier than H & J claim. Such a sweet touch, too, by H & J, that use of "allegedly."

    H & J make much of the illegal nature of such trips into Cambodia to further imply they likely didn't happen. They also use loaded words like "embellishment" and snidely employ quotation marks to imply that Kerry made up the story. Aside from Brinkley's testimony, Kerry's story seems quite plausible to me, for a number of reasons.

    First, there was no established border. Both Vietnam and Cambodia claimed parts of the Mekong River delta, a watery area of rivers, tributaries and canals. It was quite easy to slip across, especially by boat (whether inadvertently or with a purpose -- perhaps both).

    Indeed, at the hands of a careless Air America pilot, I flew numerous miles, illegally, into a more northern area of Cambodia in 1971, and nothing was said. My commander, acting on an American POW sighting from one of the indigenous agents I oversaw, got an Air Force forward air control pilot to take him on a reconnaissance flight over the area, for which he received only a mild rebuke.

    That report generated a cross-border raid by a team from MACV-SOG -- a secret group drawn from every service for clandestine operations. They sought, unsuccessfully, to locate the POWS. Such clandestine trips by military and intelligence teams were common; they were the reason MACV-SOG existed. In 1968-69, their main goal in the Mekong probably involved stopping infiltration from Cambodia.

    H & J claim: Passage by Swift boats into Cambodia through the Mekong Delta from their base at Sa Dec was impossible. Fact: Clearly they have no knowledge of the delta. The Swift boats were stationed at Sa Dec precisely because of easy access to the Mekong River complex and the approaches to Cambodia.

    It should not be necessary to plow through all this minute detail about something that happened 35 years ago, wondering whether Kerry remembers it all with precise accuracy. But we must, because the Republican smear machine insists we do. Along with former and current Republican elected officials, Hinderaker and Johnson are serving as part of the effort to smear John Kerry, just as Republicans smeared Sen. John McCain in 2000, then-Sen. Max Cleland in 2002, and critics Richard Clarke and Joe Wilson in 2004. This serves two purposes: to sow doubts in voters' minds about Kerry and to divert attention from the serious issues that really should concern voters: health care costs, the anemic state of the American economy, the mess that is Iraq and the continuing, relentless Republican effort to shift the burden of paying for the federal government from America's wealthy to its middle class.

    As the old saying goes, "Politics ain't beanbag," but this Republican crew, including Hinderaker and Johnson, take the art of slime-throwing to levels of immorality seldom seen. Voters need to awaken to this tactic, and realize how much contempt it shows for the workings of democracy and for the intelligence they bring to the task of choosing this nation's leaders.
    The H&J stuff reads like a Michael Moore movie.
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  22. #47
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    click the link. above. Kind of weird that two different generations of SEALS didn't use Swift boats for insertions.

    http://www.specialoperations.com/MACVSOG/Overview.htm

    Oh and this link on Kerry's own campaign website.

    http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/r...004_0427b.html

    John, John needs to figure out that when you start a fight in a race like this that you should finish it.

    The beauty is that the race hasn't even begun. Our convention hasn't even happened. When the gloves really come off, what is left of the Dem's won't know what hit them.

    A 527 with a grand total of $160,000 in its budget has caused more damage than Moveon's 527 has in it's seven years of existence.

    Oh and keep blaming things like Willie Horton. Try blaming your candidates. As if a DUI conviction decades beforehand equally egregious.
    "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher

  23. #48
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    Originally posted by Mcwop
    How so? 7.8 million people earning less than $50,000 a year were knocked off the tax rolls.

    This is the stuff I wish these candidates would talk/debate about.
    This is interesting.

    Did you see W standing in front of the fake hay, talking to working families, saying, "I'll tell you how we're different, they're gonna raise your taxes, we're not"?

    Under Kerry's tax plan, 98% of people will get a tax cut, only the top 2% earners won't. Do you think Bush was talking to the top 2% when he made that statement? Last I saw, the richest people in the country aren't hanging out on the farm in Iowa.

    So fucking disgusting that he does that with a straight face.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    Originally posted by mr_gyptian
    A 527 with a grand total of $160,000 in its budget has caused more damage than Moveon's 527 has in it's seven years of existence.
    So what you're saying is that your guys are better at throwing up distracting bullshit that keeps the media from focusing on issues?

    Well, shit, that changes my vote.

    It's all about loopholes and causing damage, not about policy or being a somewhat decent human being.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    "What an impressive crowd: the haves, and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite, I call you my base."

    - George W. Bush
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

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