a work dillema- need advice from other consultants

**watersnowdirt** · 10-21-2003, 05:49 PM

Ok, since I pretty much can't think for myself anymore, I decided to seek advice here. Oh, and sorry but this is NSR.

So...I consult for nonprofit groups - I plan events for them. I work hard for them - harder than I get paid for, and put my heart and soul into the work. As a result, I have a good client base that respects my work and hires me back.

Except...this one.

I have a client that I have a huge problem with. In a word, she's psycho (ask lph, I've ranted endlessly to him about her). She's manic, insulting, and extremely high strung. So I told her I would not be bidding on the project next year. A couple of days later, she pulled the "you can't quit, I fire you" act and tried to tell me that my work wasn't really up to par (which is a load of crap).

SO, here's the issue. I told her I would send her all my files on the project. Now I'm realizing that by doing that, I've made her (and whoever ends up doing this event next year) job way too easy. I don't mean to be spiteful, but it doesn't seem right to share all my work. Since I've never bailed on a client, I don't really know what my obligations (by contract, or just by ethics) are to her, in terms of sharing the documents and files connected with a project.

Any advice?? Thanks, as always.

**Tical** · 10-21-2003, 05:54 PM

Did you sign any paperwork with the client when you started this project??

**Viva** · 10-21-2003, 05:59 PM

From an ethical standpoint, you've no obligations to give up your files. I don't know how the contract reads, but I'll bet that it deals with the finished product that you've contracted for as opposed to your personal/proprietary materials and possibly confidential information. Review the contract and if you have legal counsel, let them have a look.

"She's manic, insulting, and extremely high strung"

Typical female behavior, she just need to get laid. Is she good looking? Send me a pic., maybe I can help.

**watersnowdirt** · 10-21-2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Tical
Did you sign any paperwork with the client when you started this project??

Yes - we have a contract, but it doesn't reference documents and who possesses them after.

My housemate's advice is to just give her everything and then at least she's out of my hair forever. The one good thing about that is that it'll be a good dose of reality of how much work I actually did for her. On the other hand, it practically does the event for her. Ugh.

L7 · 10-21-2003, 06:05 PM

Tell her that since she made it clear she feels your work is sub par it would make no sense to hand over the files documenting inferior work. Just to make it clear why you're doing it. Then give her Viva's number.

**Arty50** · 10-21-2003, 06:08 PM

Send her nothing. Stupid people shouldn't be in charge of things, and those who put them there should have to suffer the consequences.

That said, if you do send the materials make sure that you don't send anything that has proprietary information in it. In other words, this stuff is more than likely going to be passed on to someone who can use your own information to compete against you in future deals. So ignoring my rant above, this should be the number one reason why you shouldn't send a single shred of paper.

**Ted Stryker** · 10-21-2003, 06:10 PM

If the contract is silent on the ownership issue, then its probably just a service contract. If you provided the services, and the products assoicated with those services, then you've satisfied your end of the deal.

Are you even under contract with this person now? Probably not.
Since you likely have no obligation to renew, don't even talk to her or return her calls. Of if you do talk to her, send her a bill for the time. That'll shut her up.

**Buster Highmen** · 10-21-2003, 06:18 PM

Axiom: act like a shit, get treated like shit.

Only give her the files or any documentation if you really need to count on her recommendation.

By no means should you be co-dependent at this point. Stand up for yourself and do not allow the bitch to get what she wants.

Consider your overall behavior. Why are you even asking if she should have the files? Is there a chance that you're enabling the bitch? If you do, you've only yourself to hold accountable.

**lph** · 10-21-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by L7
Tell her that since she made it clear she feels your work is sub par it would make no sense to hand over the files documenting inferior work. Just to make it clear why you're doing it. Then give her Viva's number.

I agree with all of the above, however, having heard about this particular person several times in much detail. I like L7's approach the best.

IMO, which is based on NO business experience at all, I would say you give her nothing. The contract seems to stipulate that you provide a service which you did, I do not believe you have any obligation to give her all your work and documents from the past several years.

Knowing the way she has treated you, I would use L7's reasoning and then sever all contact.

**AntiSoCalSkier** · 10-21-2003, 06:34 PM

Give her all the documents, but take a Sharpie to them first. Black out everythin that could be considered propietary (leaving only stuff directly related to the service/products you supplied. In other words, leave the name of the venue in, but black out your contact there, as well as any information regarding negotiations. Basically give her copies of all the documents, but none of the useful information.

Finally, if this should somehow end up with a lawsuit, just hand over all your work and settle the suit as quickly as possible. It's not worth fighting with a psycho, she'll just drag you down.

**tuffy109** · 10-21-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by watersnowdirt
Yes - we have a contract, but it doesn't reference documents and who possesses them after.

My housemate's advice is to just give her everything and then at least she's out of my hair forever. The one good thing about that is that it'll be a good dose of reality of how much work I actually did for her. On the other hand, it practically does the event for her. Ugh.

can't you make doubles of all your files and wrong 'em all up? that'd be funny.

**tonghands** · 10-21-2003, 07:48 PM

Post said documents here, let us dummy them up, send to client. Bound to be interesting at least.

**Yossarian** · 10-21-2003, 07:48 PM

start with the "if you think it's crap, you can't possibly want it," tactic. But if asked, just hand over everything and be done with it, with the exception of contacts, numbers, etc that you use for your ongoing work. She doesn't get that.

Niche consulting/industry work tends to have VERY small communities when you look over the course of a career. The high probability is that eventually you will work for/with someone else who is less than 3 degrees of separation from this biznatch, so think long and hard before you do anything spiteful or damaging.

**watersnowdirt** · 10-21-2003, 07:50 PM

Thanks all. This is good advice (and damn if Buster didn't hit close to home - so scary!) that I needed to hear. I'm sending her the bare minimum that I need to send and all the rest stays with me.

Another personal crisis averted by the Maggot collective. Phew!

**slim** · 10-21-2003, 08:01 PM

This might not be related but in my field (environmental consulting) whatever the client pays for... is owned by the client. When we win jobs from other consultants or lose jobs to other consultants; all the files, notes, project history, hard work and slave labor gets handed over to whomever the client wants. It's their information, they paid for it. Every hour I worked on a project was paid for by my client, therefore any information or intellectual property produced during those hours is owned by my client.

The way I look at it is this, regardless of how good or awful a client is as a person... they're paying the bills. If they say "jump." I say "how high?" and then promptly give them a cost break down by vertical foot.

This might not relate in anyway to you... but I figured I'd add in my two cents. I say give her the information she asks for and then bill her for every hour of your time during the transition.

**teledave** · 10-22-2003, 07:26 AM

In reality, and most likely in court, slim is entirely correct as to the ownership issue if you were paid on an hourly contract basis. If you were contracted to produce a project at a set price then the issue becomes much more gray and I wouldn't turn over working papers, files and contacts unless absolutely necessary. End your contact with the client and don't take/return phone calls to her. If you get a letter from her lawyer demanding the files, make copies and send them. All professional communities are very small, don't cut your throat just to spite her.

But.........

Originally posted by tonghands
Post said documents here, let us dummy them up, send to client. Bound to be interesting at least.

Where is that pornolize link when you really need it? Now that would be some entertainment.

**Keoni** · 10-22-2003, 08:22 AM

WSD,
I too think slim is on the right track here, If you have proprietary or intellectual property, it is probably wise to give it to your client, (only because it may alleviate future legal issues). You sound like you just want to get rid of the headache, hassle, etc., so just give her what she has “paid” for. If you have not been compensated for the work you have performed to date, make her an offer along the order of, “take it or leave it”! You owe her nothing else if you are not going to get paid. The “I am the customer and you do what I want” only works to a point. If it is taking too much time away from other jobs/clients, you are probably losing revenue in the long run (my guess anyway).

Personally, our company has had to tell customers to take their business elsewhere for similar reasons. It sucks to have to turn business away, but sometimes it’s just better mentally and financially to do so.

Remember, there are other fish in the sea.

My.02

**VTskibum** · 10-22-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Yossarian
start with the "if you think it's crap, you can't possibly want it," tactic. But if asked, just hand over everything and be done with it, with the exception of contacts, numbers, etc that you use for your ongoing work. She doesn't get that.

Niche consulting/industry work tends to have VERY small communities when you look over the course of a career. The high probability is that eventually you will work for/with someone else who is less than 3 degrees of separation from this biznatch, so think long and hard before you do anything spiteful or damaging.

Another consultant chiming in my $.02. I'd agree very much with Cletus (especially since we're in similar lines of work). You never know when this would come back to bite you in the ass. We had a total nutjob in charge of the client side of our project, she finally got pushed out of that role, but as soon as her replacement left, she came right back to the reigns. Maybe some of her contacts will be your future clients? I wouldn't give her everything, but certainly give her something. That way you should avoid your legal responsibilities while still maintaing your 'methodologies', contacts, etc.

**jstead** · 10-22-2003, 08:45 AM

what format are the documents in? Why not lock them so she can't edit anything and hand them over. I am willing to bet she will never figure out how to unlock them.

**iceman** · 10-22-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Ted Stryker
If the contract is silent on the ownership issue, then its probably just a service contract. If you provided the services, and the products assoicated with those services, then you've satisfied your end of the deal.

Are you even under contract with this person now? Probably not.
Since you likely have no obligation to renew, don't even talk to her or return her calls. Of if you do talk to her, send her a bill for the time. That'll shut her up.

Sounds pretty lawyerish. Hmmm.

**watersnowdirt** · 10-22-2003, 10:03 AM

The contract, as someone mentioned above, is definitely a "service contract", so I've technically fulfilled my responsibility. I don't think it would stand up for a second that I owe her all the documents, since they are really just the means to the end, which was to produce an event, which I did. It was a flat fee contract (with a stipulation that if more work is requested I can charge her my hourly, which I've never done even though I'm sure I"ve gone beyond the prescribed tasks and hours).

I REALLY like the idea of locking the documents so they are read only. That's fabulous.

In terms of her connection in my community, Cletus if right in that it's a small one, and word spreads fast. That's why I already have decided I won't do anything spiteful or in bad taste. However, I already know that she is widely disliked, and I have actually been around the environmental community longer (and with better results), so I don't worry too much that her word carries much weight. Though I still won't risk it by doing anything that would give her cause to badmouth me.

Giving her the documents would practically be doing the event for her (letters to inkind donors, lists of inkind donors, labels for mailings). It's all the stuff I was paid to do.

So....taking this all in, I think I will give her the 10 or so documents that it makes sense to give her, and keep the rest in my possession. I don't think she will ask me for the rest, and I think I have solid ground to stand on to refuse to give them to her. I'm pretty sure she would realize that asking me for them is essentially out of line.

But then again, if I could post them here and you guys could doctor them up a bunch, that'd be a hell of a lot of fun too......

**Woodsy** · 10-22-2003, 10:10 AM

sounds like yuo are a meeting planner of sorts
(BUY MPI!!)
what you did for her is yours.
she can get files on your past events from the locales where they were held.
these will be incomplete & not helpful to a novice planner ( kind of like complicated answers to math or chem problems with out showing the work.)

tell her all your suppliers & locales should have what she needs. You are sorry things worked out this way. hell give her the number of yuor top cmpetiter. SHe will bog them down & make them nuts & you can succeed with someone else.

seriously no matter what you do you must be allowed to succeeed. clients like this are not worht it.

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