espresso making mags?

[puma]

I check in here from time to time. Fantastic information. I owe this thread and tgapp thanks for steering me towards the Mara X machine. That said, whenever I check in I'm reminded how little I know, and how novice my coffee-making is. I think I either dive in deeper spending time, energy, and probably lots of money on this...or try to get the obsessive-compulsive nature out of the equation and be happy that what I make in the morning tastes good...and that's good enough!

[mud]

The first mistake you can make in espresso making is thinking that if you spend more money, you’re getting a better experience.

[rod9301]

Very true.

Almost any machine will make a good espresso. You need a good grinder though, which is not very expensive.

Expensive machines will boil the milk faster, having separate heaters for coffee and milk, but you can easily microwave the milk and use a$12 propeller thing to foam it.

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[Doremite]

The first mistake you can make in espresso making is thinking that if you spend more money, you’re getting a better experience.

Spending more money on higher quality beans is not money gone to waste.

Spending money on a high quality grinder is not money gone to waste. My upgrade from an Encore>Rocky>Sette>Zero all made huge upgrades in flavor experience.

There are way too many variables at play for me to agree with this or argue its ignorance to my grave but more money in the machine can be the difference between a less than 5-10 lifespan to a lifetime investment.

Expensive equipment tends to make things more challenging from a user experience tho so I do agree paying more in and of itself may not yield a novice better results. A button may be the path best traveled.

[mud]

I buy from Sweet Maria’s and Roastmasters and learned how to roast so no you don’t need to spend more for something as abstract as taste, flavor profiles, or 1:1 espresso perfection.

Spending more money on any automatic tool whether it’s a barbecue grill or an espresso machine is no substitute for skill and experience.

[jackattack]

Spending more money on any automatic tool whether it’s a barbecue grill or an espresso machine is no substitute for skill and experience.

More money than what? So you're saying there's no benefit to upgrading from a basic charcoal bbq to a propane grill? My propane grill can be up to 600 F in 10 minutes. I've owned it for 15 years and I've replaced everything but the frame and the enclosure. If I had purchased a disposable unit from walmart, it would be in the landfill already, but I bought a lightly used Weber that has good dealer and aftermarket support.

No one is saying that "more expensive" equipment is a replacement for good technique or quality, fresh beans. But there are indisputable benefits to investing in a quality machine and grinder. If you want to develop good technique it is easier and more enjoyable if the machine allows repeatable and predictable results. Brewing light-roasted single-origin coffees that are more difficult to brew properly compounds the need for stable temperature and consistent grind size distribution, and benefits greatly from additional features like flow control.

I agree with you that brewing (and roasting) coffee well is not something that can be bought, it is a learned skill that is developed through repeated experience, but that experience is certainly affected by the reliability, predictability and durability of your equipment.

[Doremite]

Jack, have you found any headway combating channeling with temp adjustments or all in the grind and workflow? I’ve been working to get to 9bar pretty quickly (very little to no intentional pre-infusion 15-20 second build including time at 0 bar) hold at 9 for 10-15, let it naturally lose pressure for another 10, then manually take it down to 1 over another 10 seconds. Working out to be 18g in 50-55g out over total extraction time of 50-60 seconds but I am struggling to consistently avoid (what I am calling) channeling - more than a single drip point from the naked portafilter. Generally stoked on flavor but seems I should be seeing a single stream flow more often than I am experiencing over a whole range of bean types. Pretty sure we are using the same tgapp inspired equipment. Bianca/Zero. I do not mess with temp, currently at 202. I can drink it near instantly and feels to my pallet near the perfect temp for sipping but wonder if I need to squirm down the PID rabbit hole. Roasts are typically on the lighter side of medium.

[MontuckyFried]

The first mistake you can make in espresso making is thinking that if you spend more money, you’re getting a better experience.

Not to pile on too much, BUT Imma have to disagree as well. While yes, there are absolutely diminishing returns at a certain point, if you're going from the bottom of the barrel to even amateur level stuff, it makes a BIG ass difference. I'll use myself as an example. When I was doing French Press coffee, I was using a little cheapy Cuisinart grinder with the blades. Maybe a $30 unit. Did the trick, sure, but then we stepped up to the Breville Smart Grinder Pro, a conical burr grinder. Made a HUDGE difference right off the bat. Yeah, I know it's kind of at the lower end of good grinders for espresso, but stepping up from a $30 grinder to a $200 grinder made a world of difference. Might step up to something like the Niche Zero or something similar eventually. Will it be AS big of a difference as the last time I upgraded? Probably not, but I'm sure it'll improve consistency at least. Once you get to certain point, perhaps the improvements are more incremental in nature.

[rod9301]

Jack, have you found any headway combating channeling with temp adjustments or all in the grind and workflow? I’ve been working to get to 9bar pretty quickly (very little to no intentional pre-infusion 15-20 second build including time at 0 bar) hold at 9 for 10-15, let it naturally lose pressure for another 10, then manually take it down to 1 over another 10 seconds. Working out to be 18g in 50-55g out over total extraction time of 50-60 seconds but I am struggling to consistently avoid (what I am calling) channeling - more than a single drip point from the naked portafilter. Generally stoked on flavor but seems I should be seeing a single stream flow more often than I am experiencing over a whole range of bean types. Pretty sure we are using the same tgapp inspired equipment. Bianca/Zero. I do not mess with temp, currently at 202. I can drink it near instantly and feels to my pallet near the perfect temp for sipping but wonder if I need to squirm down the PID rabbit hole. Roasts are typically on the lighter side of medium.

202 might be a little high, try 199

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[tgapp]

listen to doremite, he knows

grind quality (freshness, consistency, particle distribution etc) is the #1 component in cup quality. there's been enough written and said about it I'm not going to bother wasting anymore words while I sit and feed this baby, I think that's just undisputed fact.

When you buy a nicer grinder, you're not paying for convenience or workflow, as some of the world's best grinders are in notoriously wildly inconvenient. Look up the old school ek43 single dose workflow if you want a taste of what I'm talking about, or any of the old legacy (Mazzer era) workflows. When I first got into home espresso, the orphan espresso Pharos was the number one quality budget hand grinder, but again, look up the workflow to see what working with one of those is like. Fkn wild. Or the OE Apex, for drip. All of those grinders maximize grind quality at the expense of literally every other factor.

A lot of home grinders try to balance workflow and usability with grind quality which inevitably leads to compromises. The niche doesn't.

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[Doremite]

listen to doremite, he knows

Despite my dedicated efforts I still find myself wandering lost at times. See my channeling complications above.

Congrats on the baby by the way. I think I already sent you my well wishes by PM months ago but you were undoubtedly in the shock and awe phase.

Espresso sure hits the spot when the kiddo decides to eff with anything resembling normal sleep. Godspeed.

[jackattack]

Jack, have you found any headway combating channeling with temp adjustments or all in the grind and workflow? I’ve been working to get to 9bar pretty quickly (very little to no intentional pre-infusion 15-20 second build including time at 0 bar) hold at 9 for 10-15, let it naturally lose pressure for another 10, then manually take it down to 1 over another 10 seconds. Working out to be 18g in 50-55g out over total extraction time of 50-60 seconds but I am struggling to consistently avoid (what I am calling) channeling - more than a single drip point from the naked portafilter. Generally stoked on flavor but seems I should be seeing a single stream flow more often than I am experiencing over a whole range of bean types. Pretty sure we are using the same tgapp inspired equipment. Bianca/Zero. I do not mess with temp, currently at 202. I can drink it near instantly and feels to my pallet near the perfect temp for sipping but wonder if I need to squirm down the PID rabbit hole. Roasts are typically on the lighter side of medium.

I find it's all in the grind and workflow. I have settled at 203F for the PID brew temp. I'm at 600ft elevation, so YMMV. I would get it as high as possible without exceeding the boiling point to maximize extraction for lighter roasted coffees. I think 202F is probably fine.

It sort of sounds like maybe the flow is being choked, but possibly channeling too. I have had this happen when I grind a little too fine. I can sometimes recover the shot by killing the flow for a few seconds "preinfusion" and then bringing pressure back up to 6bar to get a good flow rate without having it break down completely and channel. But ultimately I go back and adjust grind to hit 9 bar and adjust dose 19g-20g as needed for a reasonable flow rate. I also don't hold it at 9 bar for more than a few seconds after the espresso starts flowing. I immediately taper off the flow, in an attempt to emulate the pressure curve of a lever machine.

Flavor is king, so what works for me may not work for you.

There are few things more entertaining to the boy than watching me brew coffee. He will come running from anywhere in the house if he hears the grinder, especially the hand grinder. Baby love dopamine hits combined with caffeine will carry this middle aged parent through any level of sleep deprivation.

[bennymac]

Congrats to Tgapp on the new addition. Your coffee skills will come in handy as you guys navigate the new sleeping schedule!

[Doremite]

I find it's all in the grind and workflow. I have settled at 203F for the PID brew temp. I'm at 600ft elevation, so YMMV. I would get it as high as possible without exceeding the boiling point to maximize extraction for lighter roasted coffees. I think 202F is probably fine.

It sort of sounds like maybe the flow is being choked, but possibly channeling too. I have had this happen when I grind a little too fine. I can sometimes recover the shot by killing the flow for a few seconds "preinfusion" and then bringing pressure back up to 6bar to get a good flow rate without having it break down completely and channel. But ultimately I go back and adjust grind to hit 9 bar and adjust dose 19g-20g as needed for a reasonable flow rate. I also don't hold it at 9 bar for more than a few seconds after the espresso starts flowing. I immediately taper off the flow, in an attempt to emulate the pressure curve of a lever machine.

Flavor is king, so what works for me may not work for you.

There are few things more entertaining to the boy than watching me brew coffee. He will come running from anywhere in the house if he hears the grinder, especially the hand grinder. Baby love dopamine hits combined with caffeine will carry this middle aged parent through any level of sleep deprivation.

Will try to spend less time at 9bar. Thanks for taking the time.

[rod9301]

My ristretto this morning.

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[jm2e]

while I sit and feed this baby

Congrats on the procreation.
Any discussions yet about moving coffee production to a soundproof location?



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[carlh]

Tried to buy a used niche zero but the deal fell through so picked up a df54 from Amazon. Need to spend some more time dialing in and pick up a more precise scale for dosing but still a huge improvement from the first shot. Seems well made and easy to use and I think the results will be great even if I’m leaving a touch of body on the table compared to the conical niche.

[mntlion]

seems like a VERY good deal? $350 CND

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...9HMTP028&psc=1

scam?

py model?

[Doremite]

seems like a VERY good deal? $350 CND

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...9HMTP028&psc=1

scam?

py model?

It may be about a 5yr old model? What are you trying to correct for vs current grinder? If you are just looking to build a grinder quiver, carry on.

[jackattack]

I did a full coffee nook cleanup and descaled the machine yesterday and this morning I pulled a shot of this Tanzania sl-28 natural courtesy of tgapp that I roasted earlier this week. It’s still very early but I can see how he claims it’s the best espresso he’s had this year.

[rod9301]

Without changing the grinder settings, it seems that the flow seems to vary occasionally.

Does this happen to you guys?

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[jackattack]

Without changing the grinder settings, it seems that the flow seems to vary occasionally.

Does this happen to you guys?

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Are you weighing your dose and using the same mass of beans for each shot?

[mntlion]

It may be about a 5yr old model? What are you trying to correct for vs current grinder? If you are just looking to build a grinder quiver, carry on.

Looking to have 2 grinders, one for reg roast and one for decaf or any unique beans I get.

Home use, llooking for timed doasing, right into portafilter

[rod9301]

Are you weighing your dose and using the same mass of beans for each shot?

Yes, i always weigh, 18g, always clean the grinder before i put the beans in.

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[rod9301]

And i use a distribution tool, the tamping tool has a hard stop, so it's always the same pressure

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