the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[skinipenem]

Spoilers.

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[reckless toboggan]

margotron

please answer all this:


So a few questions that you can answer that will help this out.

1) What is the shell fit like for length? Remove the liner, put your foot in the shell only, have your toes lightly touching the front of the boot and see how much room is behind your heel and the boots shell. Use a pen as a spacer and measure this for thickness. You want 5-15mm (1/8 to ½ inch) of room. If you have more then 25mm stop here

2) What is the shell fit like for width? Now center your foot front to back, (same amount of room behind the toe and heel) and is the width of your foot touching the sides of the boots shell? You want anything from lightly brushing to 2mm per side. If you have 3mm per side stop here.

3) Do you have any footebds? Most people find a off the rack, or full custom footbed more comfortable, and helps to hold the foot in place better, Get one.

So if you boot is within all of the above parameters we can go on. If you boot is just too big it is not worth working on. Your foot will still move around, you have to over tighten the buckles, and cramp to foot and cut off circulation (cold toes). Your boots are too big, and nothing will make that much better. Don’t waste your time, and money fixing a broken leg with bandaids. You need boots that are 1-2 sizes smaller. If you really want work on what you have, a boot fitter can do somethings, but it will not get much better, and will be $50 - $150 for not much progress.

So now that your boot is within a workable size range in length, width and with a supportive footbed we can go on to getting more info.


A few basic things to check first:

1) You just have one, thin, clean ski sock in the boots
2) You just have a sock in the boot? (no thermals, jewelry, etc)
3) Your toe nails are trimmed short?
4) They are YOUR boots and not borrowed?
5) You are just skiing in your ski boots? (not walking, driving etc)?
6) You dry your liners out at night either with a dryer or remove liners?
7) The left liner, the left footbed are in the left boot and this is on the left foot?
8) You are loosening the buckles if you are not skiing (while standing, on lifts, etc)
9) You are not skiing all day in new boots? They need time to break in
10) Buckles are pointing to the outside?


So your boots are the right size, AND you are doing everything else right, but still the boots are not 100% right. These questions will help a boot fitter will have a better understanding of the problem and can start to help you. Better Or Worse = (BOW)

1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)

6) BOW on the first vs the third day?

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?

This is a great diagnostic list.

I'm gonna borrow it when friends start telling me about their boot woes.

I did boot fitting at a couple shops, and for my racers when I coached, for about a decade back in the day.

I've used most, if not all, if these questions, and had a system, but never wrote it out in an organized way.

This is a really good, organized checklist.

Thanks mtnlion.

[mntlion]

This is a great diagnostic list.

I'm gonna borrow it when friends start telling me about their boot woes.

I did boot fitting at a couple shops, and for my racers when I coached, for about a decade back in the day.

I've used most, if not all, if these questions, and had a system, but never wrote it out in an organized way.

This is a really good, organized checklist.

Thanks mtnlion.

welcome, My ADD/Asperger thinks that this list makes sense.

[reckless toboggan]

welcome, My ADD/Asperger thinks that this list makes sense.

Haha!

Welcome to the spectrum!

[margotron]

Too much varus forefoot post will cause peroneal tendon problems. Even if the post doesn't extend under the first methead, if it is too high under the first metatarsal shaft, it will over stress the peroneals(and if thick/dense enough, it could be leaving the first met up in the air adding to the to the front of foot lifting feeling.)

A. This sounds very likely. I had a lot of varus going on. like a lot. Standing flat on the ground barefoot, and referencing my left foot, I can trigger the pain by rolling the foot laterally (to the outside) onto the 5th metatarsal shaft. This 'laterally rolled' position is effectively how I was skiing, with the weight on the outside edge of my left foot. I had much difficulty putting pressure onto the ball of my big toe on my left foot (initiating turns).

B. The reason I had this much varus was to correct my knock-kneed-A-frame and get my skiis flat on the snow. But apparently this Varus approach isnt going to work.

C. I have removed the extreme varus wedge. Seems like to get back to flat skis I will have to explore (i) boot shaft angle and (ii) boot sole canting. How would you test (C)(i) and (C)(ii) and got any other ideas to get to flat skis?

The front of foot lifting sounds like you need to reduce volume on the forefoot, but could also be caused by too much tension in front of the ankle. Kind of like the ski moves idea, too tight a fit here will tension the anterior tibias tendon which lifts your foot up.

D. Re forefoot volume: so you mean Reducing volume in the forefoot? This would entail shaving down the boot board, right? Which would (1) reduce volume up there and (2) increase ramp angle in the process?

E. Re tensioning: So too much tension in front of ankle (from tightening the front two buckles too much) --(leads to)--> tensioning the anterior tibias tendon --(leads to)--> contracting the tendon responsible for lifting the ball of the foot?

This could be. those buckles were tight as hell. I had thought the culprit for lifting forefoot was insufficient ramp angle but maybe not...
How to test E?

welcome, My ADD/Asperger thinks that this list makes sense.

YES! the list is awesome. I still can't put on a ski boot due to pain but the list is helping get to this point so thank you both very much.

[turnfarmer]

A. This sounds very likely. I had a lot of varus going on. like a lot. Standing flat on the ground barefoot, and referencing my left foot, I can trigger the pain by rolling the foot laterally (to the outside) onto the 5th metatarsal shaft. This 'laterally rolled' position is effectively how I was skiing, with the weight on the outside edge of my left foot. I had much difficulty putting pressure onto the ball of my big toe on my left foot (initiating turns).

B. The reason I had this much varus was to correct my knock-kneed-A-frame and get my skiis flat on the snow. But apparently this Varus approach isnt going to work.

How much varus? 1/8"? 1/4" ?

C. I have removed the extreme varus wedge. Seems like to get back to flat skis I will have to explore (i) boot shaft angle and (ii) boot sole canting. How would you test (C)(i) and (C)(ii) and got any other ideas to get to flat skis?

Generally, in boot modification address the foot, external mods address proximal issues. Typically knock kneed addressed with thick side in canting on boot or under binding. Some people test with duct tape layers on binding, old credit card plastic bits would work well. Do this at your own risk. Certainly can affect binding release.


D. Re forefoot volume: so you mean Reducing volume in the forefoot? This would entail shaving down the boot board, right? Which would (1) reduce volume up there and (2) increase ramp angle in the process?

Shaving down footboard would increase volume. Try adding boot fitting foam on top of liner. If it makes your instep too tight just put it on lateral side of foot.
If you have to much volume all over bontex shims or get a boot that fits.

E. Re tensioning: So too much tension in front of ankle (from tightening the front two buckles too much) --(leads to)--> tensioning the anterior tibias tendon --(leads to)--> contracting the tendon responsible for lifting the ball of the foot?

Spell error, should be anterior tibialis tendon, stupid autofill.

This could be. those buckles were tight as hell. I had thought the culprit for lifting forefoot was insufficient ramp angle but maybe not...
How to test E?

Correct. Test by not cranking that buckle so tight.


YES! the list is awesome. I still can't put on a ski boot due to pain but the list is helping get to this point so thank you both very much.

Agree, props to Mtnlion.

[blackalps]

ok, so i'm back in the sport after 23 years away. obviously all the gear has changed. I'm skiing blues with bumps, groomed/powder blacks, and some black bumps. I just bought my first pair of boots, Lange XC120s. I went to a supposedly great bootfitter, but I guess i got them fit too large somehow, and after 4 days in them, the liner packed out a bit and now they are too big/"comfort fit." When I really ski hard, especially in bumps, my heel slides around enough that it's distracting me from paying attention to focusing on the bumps. I went back to the shop, who "guaranteed the fit for the life of the boot," and they basically told me to pound sand. went back a second time and they said I could "upgrade" i.e. exchange, but with an upcharge that is equivalent to what I paid for the boots already (they were an older model i got a deal on).

I'm really unsure what to do. The boots have a walk mode and are quite comfortable to hike in, but dont have tech binding fittings. so I'm tempted to use them for inbounds hiking, but dont really see the benefit of the "comfort fit" other than occasionally doing that or, well, for walking around at the base lodge. I got a good deal on them, so I'm tempted to just use them this season and try to get over the performance aspect, but I'm skiing harder and taking lessons and am trying to get up to being a solid black run/backcountry skier, and they really do distract me when I ski hard. Alternatively I could sell them, but then I'd be starting from scratch and probably paying a lot more. I dont see myself doing much backcountry this season, as I'm still trying to get my skills back/improved, so while a "hybrid boot" is appealing, I really just want a good performing boot for inbounds while I learn.

[blackalps]

oh, i should mention, when i went back to the shop, they put in L pads and a higher volume footbed. I went and skied yesterday, they are better but I still have heel lift/slop.

[reckless toboggan]

High-volume, high-density intuition liners.

Maybe 2 per boot?

[blackalps]

Yeah the shop guy suggested that too. I guess my thing is, boot cost + intuition liner cost = cost of a new boot in the right size at full price. Also wondering if all that extra liner material in there will leave them skiing sloppy anyway.

[mntlion]

Buy boots that fit.
Maybe shorter. Maybe narrower
Sorry

[reckless toboggan]

Yeah the shop guy suggested that too. I guess my thing is, boot cost + intuition liner cost = cost of a new boot in the right size at full price. Also wondering if all that extra liner material in there will leave them skiing sloppy anyway.

Well then you already know what you need to do.

[blackalps]

Yeargh

[Groomer Gambler]

Looking for a cheap, temporary fix to current boot issues. New boots are not an option this year so what can I do to scrape by for a few more ski days?

I have an older pair of Full tilts (5-6yrs old?), liners were heat molded, boots punched out, custom footbeds, booster straps, the whole works. I know the liners are likely packed out. After half a day of skiing my shins are so sore I can barely stand due to pressure points at the buckles. It's been awhile since I felt vice grips on my shins. Any suggestions for cheap remedies? duct tape on the liner (big imprints on the liner at the buckles), pads, one of those shin eliminator pads, taller spoiler (my theory on shinbang for tall, lanky people like me is boots aren't tall enough and create a weird pivot point lower on our shins than regular sized folks), etc?

[El Chupacabra]

Looking for a cheap, temporary fix to current boot issues. New boots are not an option this year so what can I do to scrape by for a few more ski days?

I have an older pair of Full tilts (5-6yrs old?), liners were heat molded, boots punched out, custom footbeds, booster straps, the whole works. I know the liners are likely packed out. After half a day of skiing my shins are so sore I can barely stand due to pressure points at the buckles. It's been awhile since I felt vice grips on my shins. Any suggestions for cheap remedies? duct tape on the liner (big imprints on the liner at the buckles), pads, one of those shin eliminator pads, taller spoiler (my theory on shinbang for tall, lanky people like me is boots aren't tall enough and create a weird pivot point lower on our shins than regular sized folks), etc?

Free remedy: if your boots have intuition liners, rebake them. Doesn't matter if they've been cooked a bunch before. They'll still expand enough to make a difference.

[gregL]

Free remedy: if your boots have intuition liners, rebake them. Doesn't matter if they've been cooked a bunch before. They'll still expand enough to make a difference.

FWIW, there is a difference between factory Intuition liners and the version Full Tilt specs in their boots - the Full Tilt version has much less closed cell EVA (inner layer is regular foam) and doesn't respond as well to re-cooking.

[El Chupacabra]

FWIW, there is a difference between factory Intuition liners and the version Full Tilt specs in their boots - the Full Tilt version has much less closed cell EVA (inner layer is regular foam) and doesn't respond as well to re-cooking.

I didn't know that. Still, if I were in his shoes/boots, I'd give it a try if all I wanted to do was try to improve the fit of packed-out FTs. It seems unlikely to worsen his fit situation.

[mntlion]

FT are the same as intuitions. rebake and see, no harm

or wear a thicker sock? or extra footbeds

[riff]

Ok. I’ve had Vulcans for three seasons. Overall they are the greatest boot ever made, in my opinion. I’ve been getting a pinch on my left foot, felt like pressure from my sixth toe area causing what I thought to be nerve pain between my second and third toes. Much worse on flatter portions of walking days. I finally decided to stretch them out for a bit more width. It was well done, and in the parking lot felt great. After a few short laps though, I had the same pain as always and now I feel like I’m swimming in the boots. Phooey. I’m pondering a gentle application of heat gun, hoping the punches will pull back in a bit, but not sure what is causing the pain now. Thoughts? Better foot beds? Using Sole heat mold able.


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[mntlion]

you have 2 issues now

1) put the boot shells in a bit less then boiling water, for 5 min, and let cool. they might shrink a bit

2) Do you get the same pain with
a) using other footbeds in the touring boots?
b) thinner or thicker socks?
c) in any other sports or activities
d) how many days on the sole footbeds (usually flattened out after 100+).
e) metatarsal pads, under the mid foot, might help? try it and see.

[riff]

Thanks mtnlion!
I’ll try shrinking the shells back a bit.

I’ve never tried other footbeds in those boots, but I’ve had that pain in radiums, Titans, spirit 3’s, vulcans and tlt5 and 6.
Thinner socks are better, slightly. That’s why I thought more room might help...
It never happens in regular boots or shoes.
Hundreds of days on the Soles for sure. I’ll investigate the met pads underfoot.

Thanks!


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[mntlion]

Thanks mtnlion!
I’ll try shrinking the shells back a bit.

I’ve never tried other footbeds in those boots, but I’ve had that pain in radiums, Titans, spirit 3’s, vulcans and tlt5 and 6.
Thinner socks are better, slightly. That’s why I thought more room might help...
It never happens in regular boots or shoes.
Hundreds of days on the Soles for sure. I’ll investigate the met pads underfoot.

Thanks!


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if it happens in many ski boots, it MIGHT not be a issue with the individual boot, and more with the foot. Go see a physio/pediatrist and see what they say.
if they want to make you footbeds, find out what the refund/reshaping/return policy is if they dont work for you.

[detrusor]

Agree w e. Sounds like you may have a neuroma that metatarsal pads will help with.


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[riff]

Thanks! I always thought I just needed more width in all of them.


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[Rossymcg]

2 questions
1) as per advice earlier in the thread had my boots punched out at the side, it's nice in there now but fuck me my toes are so cold going numb. it feels very tight in just the liner around my toe area. once in the shell it's very tight and a real struggle to wiggle upward to get some blood flowing in to the toes to warm them up. I've had prob 20 odd days in the boots now, well renowned boot fitter keeps saying they'll pack out.
2) rented some touring boots (my alpine boots 24-24.5)
I went with 26(a lot of slopping about inside)as they didn't feel too tight across the last. on the up very comfy, coming down I couldn't ski. I had no control what so ever. how close a fit would you want to put someone in a touring boot? I've only ever skied lift served and boot packed never used skins and toured before yesterday

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