Maggot snowmobile thread

[kidwoo]

Believe me, I hear what everyone is saying and I started out looking used, but the used market where I live is full of really crappy, abused sleds that have seen more action than a porn star. If I had access to some sled that some dude got drunk and raced across the lake a couple weekends a year and then got bored of it, I would be stoked. My reality is a bunch of kooks who get out almost everyday and put a regular beat down on their sleds. Most folks around here actually reccomend going new because of that. Obviously shit will happen. I've owned plenty of 2 stroke shit to know that it requires constant upkeep or it will turn to shit. Big difference between taking care of it yourself and knowing the issues then unknowingly inheriting someone elses broken toy.

Those guys exist everywhere.


But so do their 60 year old dads who also buy new sleds frequently and then sell them in good shape.

[Mannix]

unknowingly inheriting someone elses broken toy.

That's what they make flashlights and compression gauges for.

The only thing you can't "see" is the crank, really, but there are clues - decent oil, crap in the airbox? Miles? Miles are only partially telling.

ehhh, who knows. Buy a new sled. Just don't be surprised if it acts like crap.

And IME, 2 strokes don't require "constant upkeep." If they're jetted right and winterized properly, shrug, they just kinda go, ESPECIALLY on snowmobiles - I do a pretty throrough fall maintenance on mine, last year, I had to replace one DESS post and a recoil. Dess post was flaky, recoil stopped engaging. Maybe one set of plugs? Forget.

blah blah blah. Colorado is fairly slednecky, but finding "all stock, stored inside" sleds is easy enough.

And your chainsaw-friend who says he makes more on repairing sleds? OF COURSE HE DOES! Dealers make squat on new sleds. ~$78/hr + parts, it adds up FAST. I saw a sled at the shop that someone had just purchased - clutch had allegedly been "gone through" (with a dremel tool and a blindfolded, drunk operator?). Clutch was junk. Several hundred later.....sucks, but oh well

It is snowing in CO. Yay!

If buying new suits you and your budget, do it - I'd much rather own a brand new sled than a used one (forgetting those pesky dollars), but used is certainly not bad, ESPECIALLY for skiing.

I spent part of a day on an 11 ETEC last year. Delightful. You'll love that thing, whether or not it blows up.


Iain

[AKturnanburn]

I bought a used 05 summit with 670mi 5 years ago (for half the cost of new) and the thing has yet to have a single mechanical issue that was not a fuk up on my part (rocks, rolling, and general jackassery). Granted I have maintained it well, kept a close eye on the carb boots, chain, clutch, y-pipe and various other shit, if I had just rallied it and had no clue I would have been through a few top ends and who knows what else. Its just a pile of parts, I feel that anyone who buys new is a clueless sucker throwing away thousands of dollars. But I feel that way about most material things in todays market.

Look for the nearest big city and buy the sled used to justify the hicks ego and look good in the garage while getting ridden every other weekend. don't ever buy a used sled with more than 1000 miles. I'm sure your market is unique in whistler, but that advice from the dealer will be the same no matter where you go. Cash is king.

[Jethro]

I have had two used sleds, both of which I have great luck with. For me, sleds are just backcountry access tools. I am a big dirt biker, but I prefer skiing over riding sleds. The thing about sleds is that they are built like big beer cans, and of the same material. You have to be aware of how it was ridden, or be willing to roll the dice on a unknown sled. I have not spent over $2800 on a six year old sled, so if one turns out to be a lemon, no big deal. If I was a serious rider, I would be looking to spend twice the money, and I would be choosier.

[Mannix]

My primary sled up til this year was actually a rental. The hood reflects that. Chassis is straight, hood is hammered, lots of scuffs and stuff.

I don't care.

The beautiful thing about snowmobiles is that if they're set up close to right, you kinda can't hurt the motor with the throttle; yeah, some of the rental chodes probably did not let it warm up fully, but beyond that, once warm, the belt takes the bulk of abuse. You can't downshift into first and spin the motor to the moon, shrug, they're kinda idiot-proof in some ways. If it has not been ridden into a tree (too hard) or sunk in a lake, and good oil was used.....yeah.

All of my sleds have been used (3, last one was an insurance total, even....bought it at auction for a song, spent some time reassembling, only a couple hundred miles so far, but so far, it has exceeded my expectations), all have treated me very well.

IMHO, two things:

1. A lot (!!!!!) of people WAY overestimate how much sled you "need" for an effective tow rig. A 96 fanmotor anything will limit you in certain places and on certain days, but a LOT of good skiing can be had off a "crappy" sled.

2. Do the work in the spring and fall, they actually treat you pretty well.



Iain

[AKturnanburn]

1. A lot (!!!!!) of people WAY overestimate how much sled you "need" for an effective tow rig. A 96 fanmotor anything will limit you in certain places and on certain days, but a LOT of good skiing can be had off a "crappy" sled.

Its all where and what you're trying to ski, I wish we had mellow logging roads to ridges through the trees. Here its both tech and pin to win, on a day with much decent snow almost half the decent uprouts are sketchy to impossible with anything smaller than a newer 800 144". That doesn't mean people don't try, much to our entertainment.

[kidwoo]

1. A lot (!!!!!) of people WAY overestimate how much sled you "need" for an effective tow rig. A 96 fanmotor anything will limit you in certain places and on certain days, but a LOT of good skiing can be had off a "crappy" sled.

There's enough designated wilderness right by the roads around here that I definitely get my skinning in. If I can tandem up something we're sure as hell going to try

[backcountryislife]

1. A lot (!!!!!) of people WAY overestimate how much sled you "need" for an effective tow rig. A 96 fanmotor anything will limit you in certain places and on certain days, but a LOT of good skiing can be had off a "crappy" sled.

When the F did the word NEED come in to this conversation Iain????? Crazy talk.



Btw, I buy a new sled every weekend, because there's NO WAY I'm gonna ride some USED POS sled the next weekend.

As one who buys a new sled rather often & has a budget for sledding that is more than I EVER would have imagined, the idea that buying a used sled is a bad idea is fucking retarded, I don't give a crap which chainsaw dealer you heard it from (yes, I do know who he is, I think you mistake his half joking comment for a gospel from the holy father).
I beat the living PISS out of my sleds, and they keep on running, and very well at that. How they look & how they run are very often two very different things, and if you're too clueless about how a two stroke (or four) machine works to be able to evaluate its condition before buying it, then you have NO business buying ANY sled. Stick to riding bitch on your buddy's 03.5 rev he got a killer deal on down the street from you.

I have a buddy with 12k on his turbo'd M7 & I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I can look at it & see what is worn, know what risks I'm taking, and decide if they're worth it. It's not as complex as you want it to be.


oh, and about that 03 edge chassis... don't buy that POS unless it's very cheap, powder11 was right on about that one

[Mannix]

Dunno, I feel like I need to call in sick tomorrow and go squat in your backyard, Kaleb!

AKturnanburn - yeah, I need to get out more; Colorado's hills - especially the front range stuff where I normally go, are pretty freaking round. We're lucky, there's often a very easy way "up." I skied Snowbird one day last season, and spent a little time looking around for "up" roads - it'd be hard there. Either hard, or a long ride around, or both. AK/BC, possibly Wyoming, the San Juans, all might change my tune.

THAT SAID, _so_ much more of it is rider/s than equipment. A Phazer won't cut it. Neither will some goofball 2-up trail sled (unless there are groomers right to the top, a la Vail Pass).

2000+ 6/7/800 with a 144+ track? That'll get it done in a LOT of places - quite possibly not where you are, but it'll do the trick for a whole lot of stuff. I spent the past 3 years figuring this crap out, and while I've got a lot of figuring done (including a huge boost right off the front from Kaleb), I've got a lot more to do.

I just got my first "modern" sled - an 05 Summit 1000 with a 162. So far, so good, knock on wood and all that, but it REALLY makes me wonder.

See, the 1000 is freaking unreal compared to my old primary sled - the 03 700/156" track. Unbelievable. Night and day difference for the better; I can make that thing do stuff I would not even -consider- on my 03. My mechanic friend calls it an "unrideable, heavy pig." Seems that he thinks it sucks. Uhhh, ok - if the modern 800s are even BETTER....

....why the hell do I see flylow clad jokers with their niche-y skis and shitty attitudes trying to pull their fancypants M8s and Rev XPs out of holes all the damned time? I've only declined to help another group of sledders get unstuck ONCE, and that was when the same jokers we'd helped THREE other times that day INSISTED on trying to pull their new giant track 800 supersled straight up the moderately steep hill out of the hole. Two idiots pulling, one on the sled operating the trench-lever, aargh. Painful. Told them how I'd rectify the situation (roll the damned thing over), gave them option B ("we don't want to roll it over"), ok, fine, dig it out that way and pull the skis until it is pointed down/across.....and left. Went back two laps later, they'd eventually listened, judging by the hole.

An early 2000s sled with a decent track (144+) will get a couple of people to a LOT of places - if you can ride the stupid thing, a little, and without fail, we see a new group every other weekend or so - new everything, fancy, very, very capable sleds, and they're stuck, floundering, doing stupid stuff, we're skiing circles around them (like a 4:1 ratio, we counted) on a pair of sleds worth less than half of their coolguy internet toughnerd sled.

Yeah, we're just f'ing awesome.

/sarcasm.

We've just paid attention to simple stuff. The 1000 certainly opened my eyes - if you (any "you" _can_ afford a modern sled, it'll make things a whole lot easier), but it is not REQUIRED.

Actually, scratch that, if you can't come up with $12k, don't bother, get a season pass somewhere.....



Iain

[AKturnanburn]

^^^ Agree. I had a 1000 for a few seasons, my first rev chassi after tubby yamaha MM's actually, and the thing was awesome for snowmoski doubling when it ran good. I had issues with the sdi and other little shit that was annoying but nothing major, really pretty strong like bull. It was classic, all my buddies made me put in all the uprouts on the deep days, if the 1000 can't make it we're SOL. that thing has so much torque you can be on the steep and deep just creepin up, thinking you'll get stuck if you don't turn around, and it just keeps powering through, I had a lot of fun and learned a ton with that beast. Holy hell its hard to pull start on the super cold days though, or maybe I'm just a weakling. Oh, I just remembered, keep a new starter relay in your trunk, that shit made for a tow out epic that should never be repeated.

It is all about riders skill and sled familiarity up until a point, doubled up and deep really tests the design and power of sled technology. I guess it comes down to how many times you want to packdown the uprout before you actually make it. when exploring new terrain and putting in stuff on the way to ski lines it gets tiresome sledding around in pow all day, ha.

My only point is that a good rider on a real sled will get er done way better than a good rider on some tubby old 136 or even 144.

and yes, the learning curve is hilarious, if I help newbie dudes get unstuck I don't show up and start digging and pulling, I'll just roll the damn thing over and be on my way, they've got to learn sometime. the art of getting a sled unstuck is kindof like the art of wiping out hard while hauling ass on skis, once you get it life is way easier.

[backcountryislife]

Dunno, I feel like I need to call in sick tomorrow and go squat in your backyard, Kaleb!


Actually, scratch that, if you can't come up with $12k, don't bother, get a season pass somewhere.....



Iain

There you go, the TRUTH has been told. I'm ok with more access riders in the BC, but most of the time they eventually turn into real sledders, so we don't need any more of THOSE types up in the hills!!!

Iain... sheyat, I think my front yard has more snow than my "back yard" What a F'd up season.

Once we get the new 12 boosted I'm gonna FORCE you to ride that thing, not even an option anymore. You're gonna piss yourself when you feel what an extra 150hp feels like in the back yard. It changes what you'll look at for lines COMPLETELY... but like you said... the rider has more impact on it getting to the top with a buddy than more people want to admit. I try to show people the system for accessing up bigger stuff, but it sure is funny watching them flail sometimes too!

[kidwoo]

Once we get the new 12 boosted I'm gonna FORCE you to ride that thing, not even an option anymore. You're gonna piss yourself when you feel what an extra 150hp feels like in the back yard. It changes what you'll look at for lines COMPLETELY... but like you said... the rider has more impact on it getting to the top with a buddy than more people want to admit. I try to show people the system for accessing up bigger stuff, but it sure is funny watching them flail sometimes too!

Is there really a 'system' for tandem riding with boost? Isn't it just 'let's go there' 'okay, hold on'



Sounds like you're getting to be quite the fan of that new m8. Keep the updates coming. I like to plan my sled purchases about 2 years in advance. There's probably one of those or a pro in my medium range future.

[Mannix]

^^^ Agree. I had a 1000 for a few seasons, my first rev chassi after tubby yamaha MM's actually, and the thing was awesome for snowmoski doubling when it ran good.....Oh, I just remembered, keep a new starter relay in your trunk, that shit made for a tow out epic that should never be repeated.

Thanks for the insight - I have extra relays, will start carrying them. I've had my eye on a RT1k since I started; this one came up cheap. I like it - it FEELS enormously more capable/nimble/betterer/faster than my 03, it is just a bit bigger, 2 people fit on it great, shrug, yeah, I think it is a pretty good access sled. When I got mine, the motor was out - I paid a LOT of attention to electrical connections. Time will tell, but it has not missed a beat yet.

My only point is that a good rider on a real sled will get er done way better than a good rider on some tubby old 136 or even 144.

Yup. I "knew" that before, now I really KNOW it. I just think that The Internet overblows the "need" for a modern sled - a whole bunch of good skiing can be had off $2-3k 2002ish mountain sleds. One of those will at least get you started.

and yes, the learning curve is hilarious, if I help newbie dudes get unstuck I don't show up and start digging and pulling, I'll just roll the damn thing over and be on my way, they've got to learn sometime. the art of getting a sled unstuck is kindof like the art of wiping out hard while hauling ass on skis, once you get it life is way easier.

Heh, yeah, I really should have done that with those guys. I did not really feel like trudging around in the snow for them AGAIN, though (and bear in mind, I rode my POS right down to their stuck sled - it was a deep day, but not _deep_. What they were doing down there is beyond me anyway....absolutely no reason to go where they went).

That reminds me of another group of clowns at Vail Pass - one of the drops for what we call "south facing road" (I think the "official" name is "tele," the southish facing shot on the way through Wilder Gulch, for those familiar) is a dead end - the cat drives out to the drop, does a hydrostatic 180, gives birth to a litter of skiers & starts trundling back down to get them. Turning sleds around can be a hassle there, although if you use a pile of snow the cat made, it is pretty easy - drive the sled on top of a pile so the skis/back of track are not really touching, grab a ski, spin it around, done. It took us a while to figure that out, but whatever.

These guys wanted to make a loop just beyond the end of the drop. Moderately steep sidehill, a small tree 30' beyond the end of the cat road. "If we go out behind that tree and make a loop, turning around will be easier."

Ok, they're right - it'd be nice to have a little loop to just drive the sled in a circle. Agreed. However, that breaks The Rule - no sleds off maintained roads in that area (kinda don't care, kinda have to care). Also, it is freaking deep back there, and getting from that tree back to the cat road will be, ummm, challenging - no momentum, sidehill, deep. Certainly not impossible, but not worth the risk of burying the sled and spending 45min getting it out. The chance of getting stuck is SIGNIFICANT, and while turning the sled around on the cat road is a bit annoying, it is not a big deal, at all - and if you catch that pitch BEFORE it gets suncooked, it is often pretty good. I put in my .02c, we skied.

Did not know what they were going to do, but if you WERE going to make that loop, you'd start uphill, go out to the tree, turn downhill (left turn), sidehill back to the catroad, right?

You'd never start on the low side, make a 90d right turn uphill in 5+' of unconsolidated snow, right?

Came back from that run, saw something weird out behind the little tree. A helmet. Huh....oh you morons. Sure enough, they'd tried to make their loop, they tried to sidehill out and turn around going UP, and now the sled is BURIED. Sigh. We eventually just took over and rode the sled out of the hole, got it pointed in the right direction, handed it back over to Joe Sledskier, who promptly tried to bury it AGAIN. Dude!

Oh well. They'll learn or stop coming out, one or the other. We normally see "those guys" ~3 times, before they disappear forever. Not sure where they go, maybe they move on to get stuck in bigger and better places.

Kaleb - yeah, I want to ride around on your sillysled. I know you're right at this point - we've gotten competent enough that we can get around pretty effectively on the old piles, and with how effortless the 1000 makes stuff, well, yeah, 150 MORE horsepower? That'll open a LOT of doors. It surprised me how gigantic the difference is between the 700 and 1000; things that are doable but tricky on the 700 are simply inconsequential on the 1000.

+100hp? uhhhhh, yeah, let's go over there....and up that....and wherever we want.

Doing a dawn patrol Saturday at TPTSNBN, out for a couple of hours - the kid is getting pretty freaking proficient on the 700. Excellent.



Iain

[Mannix]

Holy hell its hard to pull start on the super cold days though, or maybe I'm just a weakling.

I've not started it on a "super cold" day yet - probably 8F - and agreed. I have to channel the incredible hulk, find my inner chi and focus ALL my energies on it. Damn. One of the other guys tried to start it on a ~12d day, he was giving it halfassed weed-whacker pulls, after four or five, give me that....it seems like it WON'T start until you give it a good, hard, long pull.

I always get it on the second pull (so far), IF I appease the gods and pull it hard enough. Thank goodness it seemingly _will_ start if you get the big pull, though - I can't imagine pulling that thing over repeatedly.


Iain

[powder11]

My primary sled up til this year was actually a rental.

sooooooo.... you guys got me re-thinking my plan. I'm glad we had this discussion because I started talking to the tour operator whose work sleds I had been using and he said he would be willing to trade me one his work sleds for painting work this summer. I think its an 09 Summit 800 that's only been used for work stuff, so no hardcore abuse other than running around everyday, but well maintained by his staff mechanic. It could be the diamond in the rough that I've been looking for and only cost me a few thousand bucks out of pocket. I'm not sure the mileage, but I bet its high. Does the fact that it has been on a regular maintenance schedule over ride the mileage? He wont let it go until his new one arrives after the holidays, so I'll know more when he has time to talk more about it.

At risk of sounding like even more of a douche for doing a 180 after being so opionated about only getting a new sled, what do you guys honestly think about that scenario? I'd love to get a solid ride and save a ton of cash.

[kidwoo]

[kidwoo]

e-tek?

peee-tek?


Ask him how his belt life has been.

[powder11]

^come on Kid, that's all you got?!

[kidwoo]

That second post was serious questions.

Specifically what model 800 summit? And are you positive it's an 09 model year?

[powder11]

I believe its an xp summit. He said its a couple of yrs old and pretty sure its an not an etech. The guy had to get off the phone, but said to stop by after the holidays to have a look. I know a lot of his staff who have been with him a long time and he doesn't put up with any bullshit, so it probably has not been beaten on. I guess I need to go have a hard look at it and see before I get too caught up in it.

[kidwoo]

I'm serious.....ask him about how many miles he gets on a belt. Find out specifically what model year, what model package and the miles and then hit the internet when you get home. Snowest and dootalk are your friends.

[AKturnanburn]

^^^ again, as a good general rule, never buy a used sled with over 1000 miles.

take a little drive south and get out of your shitty market.

Here:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2762903302.html

a little over but BFA: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2764997106.html

or here's the cheap way to go that will still get you there, offer 'em $4500: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/rvs/2753150391.html only 600 miles

shit another one http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/rvs/2732399512.html this is the best deal for sure.

[kidwoo]

^^^ again, never buy a used sled with over 1000 miles.

take a little drive south and get out of your shitty market.

Here:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2762903302.html

a little over but BFA: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2764997106.html

or here's the cheap way to go that will still get you there, offer 'em $4500: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/rvs/2753150391.html

shit another one http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/rvs/2732399512.html

You honestly think he can't find a good sled domestically that doesn't involve international transfer BS?

]^^^ again, as a good general rule, never buy a used sled with over 1000 miles.

But don't be dumb enough to pass up a good deal on one w/over 1k that's in good shape.

[powder11]

^^^ again, as a good general rule, never buy a used sled with over 1000 miles.

take a little drive south and get out of your shitty market.

Here:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2762903302.html

a little over but BFA: http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/rvs/2764997106.html

or here's the cheap way to go that will still get you there, offer 'em $4500: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/rvs/2753150391.html

shit another one http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/rvs/2732399512.html this is the best deal for sure.

I thought about that, but getting it across the border can be hit or miss and the miss could be an expensive one as they will hit me with taxes (12%) and fees that will most certainly override any savings.

[AKturnanburn]

Oh, damn that sucks, I didn't know about that BS.

I looked up VC c-list and ya things are on average 15-20% higher for the same shit.

Just ride it up over the border through WA in the middle of nowhere, get some skiing in along the way.

But don't be dumb enough to pass up a good deal on one w/over 1k that's in good shape.

Ya, ya, give'er a compression test and a solid twice over.

I'm thinking about having that 159 with 600 miles shipped up here, throw on a can and some new rings and carb boots and good to go, that thing rallies I'm sure.