Cornering: geometry, tires or technique?

[Crinkle]

Dealing with attempts to be able to hold more speed through corners, I have come to a few questions.

I am sure that to some extent cornering is improved with good tires, I think I have just had shitty ones. Changing over to Conti Vertical Pros on monday when they get here. See if this helps. Which also led me to wonder, how much of the bike's geometry plays a part in one's abiltiy to corner on one bike vs another? I supose more upright postions, causing higher center of gravity with highly affect me. Then final part of the equation, technique of holding speeds through corners, of which I have none, just go in faster and faster to the same corners till I realize its limit. I do always have my inside foot in the down or foward postion through the corner if I am not pedaling.

I guess I am leaving out trail conditions, which would play a major roll as well, but lets leave that out for now as not to make this even more complicated.

thoughts?

[Telephil]

I just went from a 4" full travel bike to a hardtail with 3" on the front. The geometry is way different, but i think handling/technique is the biggest thing. If I'm making a tight turn, my inside foot is always up, maybe slightly forward. Lean the bike over, keep your body upright, stick your inside knee into the turn, that's the way I do it. The way I remember it is weight on the inside hand, outside foot.

[JMO]

Staying off the front break has always been a hard one for me, especially since my rear pads are almost shot (note to self: buy new break pads this weekend). If you can skid the rear tire around a turn, that's a good way to go, although it's not so popular with the tree hugger types.

[Plakespear]

All three will affect your cornering ability. However, I'd say that improving your technique will be the least expensive, and most effective way to corner faster. One habit I have picked up over the years when cornering is to point my inside knee in the direction I am turning. I don't know if this has any actual benefit. I saw a picture of a European road racer rounding a corner like this, and it does make at least a psychologial difference.

Click here to see an example

[bagtagley]

Technique is definitely number one. However, you'd be amazed at how well a bike w/ a low COG will rail the corners. As an example, my Bullit has a very high BB, so it gets a bit sketchy in fast, sweeping turns. An Intense M1 (the only true DH bike I've ever ridden) on the other hand has a very low BB, and so it rails the turns. The downside to this is, even w/ 165mm cranks you find yourself bashing the cranks on rocks.

[homerjay]

All 3.

Think about pushing your handlebars down to the side and laying off the brakes.

[mtnrider]

Rake and wheelbase length are the parts of the geometry of the frame that seriously affect turning. Imagine a chopper style mtn bike...wouldn't turn to well huh?!?!? Everybody mention everything else. You can practice and get really good but nothing will change totall handling characteristics of the bike. That is why there are so many different disciplines of mtn bikes available now. Lucky us.

[CS]

Originally posted by JMO
If you can skid the rear tire around a turn, that's a good way to go, although it's not so popular with the tree hugger types.

Actually, it shouldn't be popular with any mountain biker. Besides washing out, and thus ruining the turn, it creates horrible speed bumps, and speed bumps suck ass. Also, skidding to me just shows lack of technique. Anyone can lock up the rear wheel and slide it out. And no, I'm not a tree hugger.

[Crinkle]

thanks for giving me things to work on. I am always trying different ways of doing the same old, trying to improve.

edit for bike porn:

[InspectorGadget]

I want to elaborate on Tap's suggestion to "look down and around the turn with your eyes." Always remember that your bike will go wherever your eyes are looking. Move your eyes to scan the trail ahead and always avoid target fixation: If you stare at the pothole in the road, you'll hit it for sure. Instead, look past the hole and drive around it. Can't take your eyes off that rock looming in the trail ahead? Keep staring at it and you'll be picking the dirt out of your wounds after you hit the rock and . . . . oops, OTB.

Sometimes looking through the turn requires you to use your x-ray vision. Just like when you ski or drive, the higher the speed the further you need to look ahead. Looking ahead has a wonderful slowing effect. Try this: At freeway speeds, look out the side window of your car at the guardrail wizzing past. Now, remember to scan, but look down the road so that you drive by fixed objects ahead in about 3-4 seconds. The sensation of speed is considerably lower compared to watching the guardrail.

Think of your outside foot as your downhill ski. You'll weight the outside pedal much like you pressure your downhill ski. When riding a motorcycle at higher (than parking lot) speeds, you counter-steer to turn the bike . . . . to turn right, you push on the right-hand bar rather than pull it. Telephil's suggestion of "weight on the inside hand, outside foot" is a very good practice.

Release your death-grip on the bars. Relax your shoulders and upper body. Concentrate on being smooth & fluid as you work on scanning and your body movements. If you do, you'll find your comfort and confidence levels increasing and the speed will come naturally.

[The Reverend Floater]

A few things that have helped me....

1. As mentioned before, look where you want to go, as far ahead as is realistic.

2. RELAX your arms and bend at your elbows.

3. Be sure to keep enough weight forward. People have a tendency to keep all of the weight in the back, but you have weight the front tire at least a bit so it grips the trail.

4. Pretend your front tire is a ski. This really helps me....trying to "edge" your tire by pushing on the bar and applying enough weight to it to keep it from skidding sideways.

5. Most of the time, when you think you need to tap the breaks....you don't. Just let 'em go.

edit: Peddaling though turns really helps me, too.

[JMO]

Originally posted by CS
Actually, it shouldn't be popular with any mountain biker. Besides washing out, and thus ruining the turn, it creates horrible speed bumps, and speed bumps suck ass. Also, skidding to me just shows lack of technique. Anyone can lock up the rear wheel and slide it out. And no, I'm not a tree hugger.

All true. My technique ain't so good - but it does come in handy sometimes when you just have to slam on the rear brake or otherwise go over the bars and land many, many feet down the wrong side of a switchback.

I also snore, sometimes. And I pick my nose - but mostly when people aren't looking.

[Telenater]

1. (as previously stated) Look where you want to go and don't fixate on obstacles.
2. Vertical upper body (just like skiing).
3. Let the bike float under you. Don't hold yourself rigid over the bike. Let your bike do it's thing and you do yours.
4. Inside knee points through the turn. (I generally have inside pedal forward and up to let me lean the bike through the turn).
5. For gradual turns don't turn the handlebar, lean the bike.
6. For sharper turns, lean the bike hard (get good tires). Start with weight forward to initiate the turn and shift weight back to avoid sliding the tail out.

Note: I'm pretty good (if I do say so myself) on rolling singletrack and fire road. My advice may not apply to downhilling since I'm not into DH (yet).

[spanky]

A lot of good stuff said here already. I'd just like to add... Along with weighting the outside pedal and pressing down with the inside hand to also pull up with the outside hand. This helps with getting the bike to lean in the turn.

Also, what line you take through the turn dictates how much speed you carry out of the turn... Enter the corner wide, hit the apex with the bike near the inside edge and leave the corner wide (Largest turn radius possible).

[hev]

2. Vertical upper body (just like skiing).


I'd have to disagree with this. angulating at your hips(like in skiing) create's more force straight down causing you to wash. rather you should try to keep your upper body in the same plane as your bike wich creates centrufugal (sp?) force and more down force on your tires -- hence better traction. this is obvious in a burm but can also be applied to open turns.

this is really hard to explain without pics but I can't find a very good one for this. this one is ok, notice the guy up high


alot of good mentions about line choice not much new to add, but this is a really good pic from my friends lee's web site. Hes got a book coming out soon with brian lopes wich will be about advanced mt biking technique . should be pretty good.



notice how this rider has already planned his exit line before hitting the apex. concentrate exactly where and with how much speed you will be exiting and break before the apex as little (or much) as you need.

Offtopic but here's lee's how to dirt jump, with pics and movie:
http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/102103/

[Mr. Altagirl]

Nice pictures, anything with a Yeti has gotta be right.

[jayfrizzo]

Originally posted by hev
Offtopic but here's lee's how to dirt jump, with pics and movie:
http://leelikesbikes.com/Stories/102103/

That's good stuff. He hits all those jumps perfect.

Still offtopic: I've started hitting the rhythms at I-Street. 2 mellow jumps then a bit of a lofter. I can hit the first one fine pretty slow and land dead on, but lose all speed for the second, which I end up casing and getting pitched. Tried hitting the first faster and sucking it up, but that caused me to clear it, land low, and eat shit in the sand. We need some rain up there.

[fez]

another good trick is to grab a bunch of front brake (be careful though, there is DEFINITELY such a thing as too much). this compresses the shock and steepens the head angle of the bike which also quickens the handling.

[altagirl]

My biggest improvements in cornering lately have been from learning to weight the front tire more. (My original big leap in progress came from looking further around the corner.) Anyway, lean forward and put some weight on the bars (even if you're going down) and the front tire rails the corner instead of getting loose and wanting to wash out.

[shmerham]

Speaking of Lopes, the person I bought my bike from worked for Fox. One of the boxes that some parts came in was originally used to hold Lopes's fork. It had his name and the settings written on it in magic marker. Kinda cool in a six degrees of kevin bacon sort of way.