Fuel Economy

[DJSapp]

From a recent soundbite of news:

Here are the top ten fuel-efficient model lines as listed in MSN Autos, based on EPA fuel economy data for city driving: City/Hwy
Honda Insight 60/66 mpg
Toyota Prius 60/51 mpg (!?!?)
Honda Civic Hybrid 48/47 mpg
VW New Beetle TDI 38/46 mpg
Volkswagen Golf TDI 38/46 mpg
Volkswagen Jetta TDI 38/46 mpg
Volkswagen Jetta Wagon TDI 36/47 mpg
Toyota ECHO 35/43 mpg
Toyota Corolla 32/40 mpg
Scion xA 32/38 mpg


Source: U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

Anyone notice anything funny here? The top three are hybrids, the next four are diesels, and the last three are so frickin tiny I couldn't fit into them. Please also note that NONE of these autos are from a US maker. Just seems funny that for a country undergoing a large rise in gas prices, our manufacturers might give a shit about improving fuel economy.

[PlayHarder]

N.American manufacturers have never grasped economy. I commute in an '87 Honda that, at 17 years old, gets better mileage than any of the newer Big Three models. I think as long as people are buying V8 SUV's faster than they can be made, there isn't a lot of incentive for GM, Ford, etc to try for better economy.

[The AD]

Originally posted by PlayHarder
N.American manufacturers have never grasped economy.

Not so sure about that. So far, most people have shown a preference for a larger car (or truck/SUV) with a bigger engine. These type of vehicles also generate more profit per unit.

[Mcwop]

Hybrids are not getting the fuel efficiency as stated on their stickers:

Story 1

Story 2

[Plakespear]

Originally posted by Mcwop
Hybrids are not getting the fuel efficiency as stated on their stickers:

Does any car?

[Mcwop]

Originally posted by Plakespear
Does any car?

No. Most automobiles have actual miles per gallon performance of approximately 75 to 87 percent of the EPA's rating. Data from Consumer Reports' road tests suggest that the Honda Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius averaged well under 60 percent of the EPA's reported miles per gallon when operating on city streets. The Civic Hybrid was getting 26 mpg in the city.

edit: Here is a blog (hybridbuzz) that chronicles owning a hybrid.

[LCC]

My AWD gasoline car does as good as that guys hybrid. And is a tad more stylish to boot.

[Snow Dog]

I've always found the Canadian Fuel Guidelines to be close (but it ranks the hybrids high too).

[PlayHarder]

Not very scientific, but I talked to a lady driving an Insight in the SSV parking lot this spring and it was costing me less $ in gas to do the round-trip despite my driving an extra 100km's(60miles). From what I could see, not only was I getting better economy - I was doing it a car that runs high 15's in the 1/4mile.

[Greydon Clark]

Americans don't want fuel efficient cars, if they did all the Chryslers wouldn't be powered by Hemi V-8s. High gas prices give people something to complain about, but they aren't high enough to change behavior. Kind of like when happy hour ends and beer goes from $2 to $3 a pint, you bitch, but you keep drinking.

I drive a Golf TDI and love it. I think the 38/46 mpg is accurate--even on trips to the mountains with a roof-rack.

[Big E]

Fuel mileage is heavily influenced by how you drive. I see all these Suburbans driving around that claim 15 mpg, and then they are hard on the brakes at a stop light, and hard on the gas pulling away. No way are they getting even close to 15. The manufacturer's stated mileage is based on a very specific test in which the car follows a particular profile of starting, stopping, up hills, down hills, etc. (on a dyno of course). That doesn't necessarily translate well to your driving conditions.

In addition, when you talk to people and ask them what sort of mileage they get, I bet at least 80% of these people are talking out of their asses. If you're not recording mileages and amount of gas bought, you don't know what sort of mileage you're getting. I have recorded every single tank of gas I've ever bought in my truck, and I know that in the first 50k I've put on my truck, I average a shade under 19 mpg overall. (Considering those are highway, city, and DC-beltway-traffic miles on a 3/4-ton truck that weighs 6800 lbs empty, I'm not complaining)

[A-wreck]

hybrids also cost about 10 g's more.....................
and are not as fuel efficient as they say.................
if you do the math..........nobody is saving money buying one of these.................nor are they saving the environment

[lemon boy]

You know what PISSES ME OFF?

The fact that they use gas for the hybrids instead of diesels. FUCKING RETARDED! If people are williing to buy a hybrid they're willing to buy a diesel and IMVHO they'd be putting up legit 100mpg numbers if they did just that one thing.

FUCKING RETARDS!

[mrw]

Originally posted by Plakespear
Does any car?

One that I can name... My 1999 VW Jetta TDI. I'm getting 44 mpg city and 50+ highway. And that's being a leadfoot. There are guys driving these things getting into the 60mpg range driving 55mph with cruise control etc.
The hybrids return great mileage in the city but suffer on the highway.Not enough power to get the job done. I know someone commuting in a Prius 1st generation geting around 37 mpg hwy.

[basom]

SUV sales up 15% this spring over last spring in the states.

[The AD]

Originally posted by lemon boy
You know what PISSES ME OFF?

The fact that they use gas for the hybrids instead of diesels. FUCKING RETARDED! If people are williing to buy a hybrid they're willing to buy a diesel and IMVHO they'd be putting up legit 100mpg numbers if they did just that one thing.

I wonder if there's some reason for this, though. Since the gas engine has to turn on and off repeatedly, maybe a diesel isn't as reliable for this?

[AntiSoCalSkier]

Lemon Boy - I think you're wrong about people being willing to buy a hybrid diesel. The thing about hybrids is that they act just like normal cars. You drive it around, you park it wherever you want, and you can fill it up at any old gas station. There is absolutely no change in habits required when you buy a hybrid. On the other hand, if you built a diesel hybrid, the owners would have to find the local gas stations that sell diesel. This may not sound like much to you, since it's something you already do, but to someone like my wife (I tried to talk her into one of the VW TDI models), it's way more trouble than it's worth. Also, as I understand it, a diesel engine gets better mileage and puts out fewer greenhouse gases, but actually puts out more smog-causing particulate matter. In places where hybrids are cool (large metropolitan areas), increasing smog is definitely not cool (even if your overall effect on the environment is positive, smog is seen as a much worse problem than global warming, since smog is something obvious to any observer).

[lemon boy]

antisocal-

I think you're wrong on a number of fronts.

Particulate matter emissions are a function of load and rpms in modern diesels (particles = incompletely burnt fuel).

A hybrid will by its nature be able to operate and peak efficiency and minimize particulate emissions.

Diesel is no more difficult to find than gasoline (once you own a diesel vehicle). Gas vehicle owners always think it is a pain but I have never once had difficulty finding diesel fuel, it is literally everywhere. Plus, if you only need to find fuel 1/2 the number of times you're way ahead of the game.

As far as emissions go, I also contend that by burning only 1 gallon of diesel to do the work of 2-3 gallons of gasoline you end up better off in the long run.

People who are going to buy hybrids are definitionally willing to try something radically new, they might as well be the most efficient design.

Furthermore, folks who are REALLY concerned about emission can go fill up with B100 and reduce their soot emissions to near zero.

the bias against diesel powered vehicles is based completely on untruths, half truths and cultural memories of the lousy diesels of yore.

[Telenater]

This is all well and good, but the real question for me is, when will VW attach the TDI engines to an AWD drivetrain and import it to the US?

[Stikki]

What's this I hear about a new engine, a Dodge I think, that has 8 cylinders but shuts down 4 of them whenever the power isn't needed?

[lemon boy]

TN- You and me both dude.

Preferably a jetta wagon

[PlayHarder]

What's this I hear about a new engine, a Dodge I think, that has 8 cylinders but shuts down 4 of them whenever the power isn't needed?

I Think the 300C has this available. It was attempted by GM in the late 70's/early 80's(I think), as well - didn't work so well then.
I'm just not sure what conditions a CAR would be in that would actually require V8 power.

[AntiSoCalSkier]

Originally posted by lemon boy
antisocal-

I think you're wrong on a number of fronts.

Diesel is no more difficult to find than gasoline (once you own a diesel vehicle). Gas vehicle owners always think it is a pain but I have never once had difficulty finding diesel fuel, it is literally everywhere. Plus, if you only need to find fuel 1/2 the number of times you're way ahead of the game.

You may be right about the emissions, I'm too lazy to look up the numbers.

However, my wife is not a car person, but she is pretty intelligent, and is willing to go a little bit out of her way to help the environment. Despite my efforts, she won't be swayed in her beliefs that diesel is smelly and hard to find. If that's how she feels, I imagine lots of other people are the same way. It doesn't matter if an issue is real or perceived, the end result in the marketplace is the same.

Hmmm, I wonder if it might be time for some sort of pro-diesel campaign.

Got Diesel?

[Stikki]

Found it , you're right PlayH, it's the new Chrysler 300 and Doge Magnum that have the hemi. It only boosts gas mileage by 20%.

[Telenater]

Originally posted by lemon boy
TN- You and me both dude.

Preferably a jetta wagon

Not for me, I want the Multivan (sold briefly in the US as the Eurovan) with the 3.2L TDI and the camper conversion.

Successor to the Synchro.