my back is fu@#$%

**skideeppow** · 06-28-2008, 07:22 PM

Here is my history:
Feb 01, l5/s1 lamenectamy for a partially herniated disk by DR Corneman in Steadman Hawkins. I have been good until this winter.
A series of injuries, made me compensate so much that I now have herniated l4/l5 (mri showed this). I have had two cortesone injections in the last 2 months and the second one did a grea job until I was waterskiing on Monday night. 15 off 30 MPH on ball #3 i felt my back seize up.
any way, i am super hurting, on my back the last 4 days. Have been swimming but am in unreal pain when sitting, standing and sleeping.
What do i do I?
3rd injection in 2 months?
OPt for surgery?
stay with the PT? (which has not been doing anything for the pain)
thanks

**splat** · 06-28-2008, 07:29 PM

Hate to say it now, bro, but there are a shitload of alternative treatments and remedies out there that do wonders.
Shattered vertebrae, herniations, paralysis; a chain of which all started for me in July, 1984 and I'm actually doing OK today at 53 years old.

People really like to poo-poo this stuff, but when I look at guys who have been through the medical profession's cures and their current conditions, then look at what I choose to do and where I'm at, I know I did the right thing. And I will say that that cortisone will eat you alive over time.

Educate yourself instead of expecting miracles from doctors. It's all mehab.

**Skis** · 06-28-2008, 08:40 PM

If PT isn't working for you, you should talk to the surgeon, which you might already have done. Who ordered the MRI? Depending on your symptoms, the surgeon's exam and the MRI, there are a few possibilities. In addition to laminectomy, ask about fusion and artificial disks. (the latter are hopefully unnecessary)

Not sure what Splat has in mind, but if you can find something that relieves your pain and allows you good mobility, go for it. In any case, staying in shape is key for back health. PT failing suggests that you might need something more.

Splat, did you go through all that without any medical treatment? How's your back now?

**splat** · 06-28-2008, 08:57 PM

Shattered my T10 in 84 resulting in left side paralysis, T9 in 86, exacerbating the previous injury with much longer lasting effects. Both car accidents and both times docs wanted to screw shit back together. I declined. Since then, I've herniated twice, don't even remember where, one high, one low; once skiing, once construction accident. Broke my neck skiing once as well. Docs really freaked on the last back Xray they did, saying they couldn't tell the old injuries from the newest. MRI answered that. I still have referring issues, but keep things pretty well handled.

I went through the medical profession and all they could do was prescribe traction (given my choice to not let them operate) and pain meds. Since then, I have done just about every body work system out there and settled into the ones that did me the most good. And they are wonderful, in additon to diet, nutrition, exercise, herbs, etc. I'm on the natch and will never give it up

How's my back now? There are maggots here who have seen me take some of the most hellacious spills imaginable, get up and keep skiing. Once my gym reopens in a coupla weeks, I'll be good as new.

I viewed my acl and meniscus repair as absolute necessities, just like the tympanoplasties I've had. Even though I once died on the table, they brought me back. I will readily admit the med profession has it's advantages.

**Skis** · 06-28-2008, 10:36 PM

It's always hard to tell what's going to happen and even harder without all the details, but you might have had a faster recovery with screws. Or not. I can't be sure if your spinal cord was ever in danger due to bony instability, but that would freak me out.

What made you decide against the surgery?

**splat** · 06-28-2008, 11:21 PM

My stepfather was a doctor. He told me if I thought I could heal myself, to do it. I believe he was right. Basically he said "Don't go to the hospital unless you're dying, because there's a good chance they'll kill you when you do go." He was right there, too, having been wrongly anesthetized and dropping off once in surgery. Out of approximately 50 people I've met who've had back surgery, I've only met three who didn't regret it. For me, personally, that's an affirmation.

You a back surgeon? In '84, they didn't even have MRIs where I was, possibly anywhere, in common use (correct me if I'm wrong). They had to do a nuclear bone scan. Not a bad image. But slightly toxic, based on what I was injected with. The biggest reason I didn't do surgery was that although my vertebrae was spiderwebbed with fractures, everything was still pretty much in place. I healed quite well, 99% IMO. In '86, it wasn't quite as bad, but compounded by a bad whiplash and head injury. I don't think I ever healed beyond 90% after that.

edit: Oh, yeah, I forgot....after the 84 accident, I went to the Stanford Pain Clinic for a nerve block. Dude stuck a giant needle in my back, I screamed, then woke up with people doing cpr on me while another was warming up the paddles. See why I promote a more organic self healing?

Plus, I helped an ex of mine treat herself for a rapidly progressive breast cancer (I was there for the biopsy results, name was too complex to recall). She's squeaked out a ton of years that I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have lived (and still kickin) had she done chemo. No one can believe what she's done and what she also does in healing others. I see live people.

**skideeppow** · 06-29-2008, 01:56 PM

add me to someone where the back surgery worked. I had drop foot, no feeling or control in my lower leg and the surgery corrected that. I had been doing the proper rehabfor the l5/s1 surgery and have been pretty good, skiing super hard with no reoccurence.

This l4/l5 has been killing me and believe me the last thing i want to do it surgery.
I have been swimming and when i get out of the pool i feel 95% (swam 2200 yd this am and am back on my back after feeling good for about 2 hours).

I hear ya splat, the cortisone could releive my pain and then i could start on another strengthening program. I have consulted a number of dr and pt and they say not to do any more than 3 shots in a year. Because i am not shooting the coretezone into a ligament (it is going into a disk compartment) i should be ok (but really how knows) This would be my third.
Until i have gotten rid of the pain, i can not do much. I know different things work for different people.

PM with any other suggestions that workd for you, would appreciate it.

thanks

**splat** · 06-29-2008, 02:12 PM

As someone with L3/L4 issues (anterior movement) caused by taking a chunk of ice there after hitting avie debris in flat light at high speed, I'm sending you a pm with my ph# to talk.

**janeho** · 06-30-2008, 02:17 AM

in the first instance I'd talk to your PT. The are lots of different approaches they can take and changing the type of treatment could make a big difference

**splat** · 06-30-2008, 10:37 AM

skideeppow - lost my phone last nite. I'll call you later.

**Skis** · 06-30-2008, 11:29 AM

Note: I'm not a back surgeon, I'm a med student, but I have an interest in back surgery and a little knowledge of the anatomy, clinical presentation, and treatment. I would never tell you what to do, but I think it can be helpful to keep some things in mind. In fact, I think some of the medical advice given on this board is downright ridiculous without having actually seen the patient. I'm also interested in how active people are describing their gimpiness and what they do about it.

One of the really annoying things about back surgery is that some conditions are more clearly treatable with surgery than others. Skideeppow is likely to have had specific nerve root compression that was relieved by surgery. People with more generalized pain are less likely to benefit. (Also, statistically, workman's comp is related to poor outcomes--shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.)

Sounds like for your back, Splat, they probably wanted to put the screws in to stabilize things so they wouldn't move around while they healed. Sounds like they managed to come together on their own. It's hard to tell how those 47 people who regreted having surgery would have done without it. Depending on the back conditon, it's not uncommon for the surgery group to have pain afterwards but still do better overall than the medical treatment only group. Lots of back surgeries have been shown to be effective, but the improvements are often a lot murkier than with an ACL repair, hip replacement, or other ortho procedures. You're right to be skeptical.

I'm glad your friend was able to fight through her cancer for a long time, but one case or even many individual cases don't prove that much. Even so, chemo is a difficult choice for some cancers where it might extend life, but really decrease quality of life. A few cancers just melt away with chemo (where they don't on their own), making it a pretty obvious choice. I guess my primary point of all of this is that skepticism is great, especially when it's directed towards discussing the risk/benefit tradeoffs of various choices. (You might be surprised at how thrilling it can be to have a patient that understands and is interested in discussing their choices. A lot don't have the background to understand and a lot don't have the interest--they'd rather their doctors choose.)

**splat** · 06-30-2008, 11:50 AM

My experience is that I've seen more of what I guess I'd call miracles occur in wholistic practices than with conventional medicine. But that's just me. OTOH, I know there are times when knives and stitches have unrivaled benefits. As a med student, I understand you're looking for empirical results. I prefer the Osteopathic/Homepathic approaches myself but, like I said, that's simply based on my personal experiences.

**Skis** · 06-30-2008, 12:22 PM

I'm not entirely an empiricist. I don't trust the studies nearly enough. It's also difficult to apply a given study with particular selection criteria to an individual patient. I'm happiest when there's a whole body of science (physiology and pathophysiology, themselves based on empirical studies) that supports a particular treatment that is also empirically proven and when it can be applied to the patient based on a logical model of disease. Obviously, this isn't always the case. There are plenty of things that work even if no one really knows why and plenty of things that should work (based on imperfect knowledge of the body) but don't.

To me, the most interesting patients (besides those that are just interesting people) are those that have conditions rare enough that there isn't a whole body of research telling doctors what to do. Then you have to go back on knowledge of how the body works to figure out what to do about it.

**skideeppow** · 06-30-2008, 03:02 PM

GOt the injection this AM, felling better. I could not take that pain anymore, i wanted to jump out the window.

Going to do this right and get on the sick core strengthning program.
I know there is no absolutly correct answer but was just looking for some unput. I have the best back surgeon available but alwas am looking for another opinion.

Thanks and hoepfully this will do it.

**splat** · 06-30-2008, 03:37 PM

skideeppow - I have found just rising up in bed enough to work my abs a tremendous lower back remedy. Then double leg lifts, then rising up to touch my toes when lifting lower and upper together.

Found my phone - shoot me a call.

**JabbaTheHuck** · 07-02-2008, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by skideeppow

GOt the injection this AM, felling better. I could not take that pain anymore, i wanted to jump out the window.

Going to do this right and get on the sick core strengthning program.
I know there is no absolutly correct answer but was just looking for some unput. I have the best back surgeon available but alwas am looking for another opinion.

Thanks and hoepfully this will do it.

PM me and I will give you heads up on innovative approach to "core" type strengthening.