You sure Bush won't be the one to bomb Iran???

[Roo]

THE THREAT

The Sunday Times of London reported on Jan. 7 that two Israeli air squadrons are training for the mission and “if things go according to plan, a pilot will first launch a conventional laser-guided bomb to blow a shaft down through the layers of hardened concrete [at Natanz]. Other pilots will then be ready to drop low-yield one kiloton nuclear weapons into the hole.”

The Sunday Times wrote that Israel also would hit two other facilities – at Isfahan and Arak – with conventional bombs. But the possible use of a nuclear bomb at Natanz would represent the first nuclear attack since the United States destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan at the end of World War II six decades ago.

While some observers believe Israel may be leaking details of its plans as a way to frighten Iran into accepting international controls on its nuclear program, other sources indicate that Israel and the Bush administration are seriously preparing for this wider Middle Eastern war.

THE STICK



The B61-11 can penetrate and detonate below the earth's surface, creating a massive shock wave capable of destroying underground targets. In tests the bomb penetrates only 20 feet into dry earth, even when dropped from altitudes above 40,000 feet. But even this shallow penetration before detonation allows a much higher proportion of the explosion to transferred into ground shock relative to a surface burst. It is not able to counter targets deeply buried under granite rock.

The last in a series of B61-11 full-scale drop tests, prior to the Major Assembly Release (MAR), was conducted at the Tonopah Test Range on November 20, 1996. More than 60 people from throughout the complex were on hand to observe the early morning drops. Three units were dropped from a B2-A aircraft, two units from about 6900 feet above ground level (AGL) and a third from about 25,700 feet AGL. Prior to November's tests, the weapon had demonstrated compatibility with the F-16 and the B-1B aircraft.

THE BRAINS BEHIND THE OPERATION



Fire 'em up!!!

Who here reckons this will go ahead before Dubya's tenure is out?

Some background reading that may be of interest.
When tensions in the Persian Gulf flared up in August 1990, following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, the Iraqi government made efforts to recover components from their Osirak nuclear facility. During the Gulf War several months later, the Iraqi nuclear program was put into high gear in order to create a weapon by using radioactive fuel. The site was then targeted by Coalition forces on January 17, 1991, halting the weapons program. Three days into the Desert Storm air raids, 56 F-16s attacked the facility followed by F-117 raids three days later. The facility, one of Iraq's most fortified targets, was not fully destroyed until another raid, when 48 F-16s targeted the facility 7 more times for over a month along with 17 F-111Fs weeks later. Only 19 days into the strikes did the US Defense Intelligence Agency find the site to be "severely degraded".

[AstroPax]

if it were up to astropax & summit, this should be our policy towards iran:

Fast forward to 2010.

Obama is President, and CINC.

Iran has developed the bomb.

In retaliation, we drop some unarmed MIRV's on Kwadjelin Atoll.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

-Astro

[Gripen]

Excitement and knowledge are two entirely different things. I can think of very few things more horrible than nuclear war. That is precisely why the strategy and possession of these weapons has been directed at the prevention of their actual use. It is why we must do everything we can to prevent the possession of nuclear weapons by those who would likely see to it that they were actually used.

People who are disgusted by simply having knowledge of these subjects are weird. It's one thing not to want to learn about it yourself, its another thing to disdain those who are willing to understand the subject.

I just wanted to re-iterate this. I cant tell you how many times I keep quiet what I do for this reason. People automatically assume I am war monger. I am passionate about what I do because I am passionate about peace. War is a horrible, horrible thing and should be avoided. However, if ti must happen I want to ensure it is over as quickly and with as little damage as possible.

You don't blame a cancer researcher for learning all he can about cancer in order to prevent it. Why wouldn't you think the same about military studies/strategic studies/war studies? Everyone in this field is there not because they like the big guns and bombs (they are weeded out VERY quickly) but because we are DEDICATED to peace.

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

[/rant]

[AstroPax]

I cant tell you how many times I keep quiet what I do for this reason.

Don't sweat it. It's an honorable profession.

-Astro

[Rasputin]

Since this thread stalled somewhat, here is a Frontline report from last fall, that seems to shed light on about every perspective I've heard on the subject here. It seems all the more pertinent now. (scroll down to start video)

[Craven Morehead]

I just wanted to re-iterate this. I cant tell you how many times I keep quiet what I do for this reason. People automatically assume I am war monger. I am passionate about what I do because I am passionate about peace. War is a horrible, horrible thing and should be avoided. However, if ti must happen I want to ensure it is over as quickly and with as little damage as possible.

You don't blame a cancer researcher for learning all he can about cancer in order to prevent it. Why wouldn't you think the same about military studies/strategic studies/war studies? Everyone in this field is there not because they like the big guns and bombs (they are weeded out VERY quickly) but because we are DEDICATED to peace.

Don't judge a book by it's cover.

[/rant]

That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in awhile.
Become a Quaker. They are dedicated to peace.

The military-industrial complex is dedicated to MONEY.
You try to justify your job with your so-called dedication to peace.
The military teaches people to kill for a living. That's what YOU are.
Just admit it and quit trying to soothe your wounded conscience.

[Ema Goldman]

Your intelligence doesn't make you smart enough to hide your ignorance.

Big Balls / Liberal Genius add something of substance

or join
Liberal Haters

and follow your leader:

[AKPogue]

That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in awhile.
Become a Quaker. They are dedicated to peace.

The military-industrial complex is dedicated to MONEY.
You try to justify your job with your so-called dedication to peace.
The military teaches people to kill for a living. That's what YOU are.
Just admit it and quit trying to soothe your wounded conscience.

Yeah that has really worked for world peace.

[summit]

That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in awhile.
Become a Quaker. They are dedicated to peace.

The military-industrial complex is dedicated to MONEY.
You try to justify your job with your so-called dedication to peace.
The military teaches people to kill for a living. That's what YOU are.
Just admit it and quit trying to soothe your wounded conscience.

Your mischaracterization of the participants of this discussion combined with your astounding ignorance and naivete show that you are beyond hope.

[Craven Morehead]

Your mischaracterization of the participants of this discussion combined with your astounding ignorance and naivete show that you are beyond hope.

Oh really.
What's beyond hope are civilizations that rely on a military presence throughout the world to project control and power. It fails time after time.
Maybe YOU have a naive ignorant ethnocentric worldview. If you think for one second that the military doesn't teach people to kill, then I guess you missed out on basic training for Vietnam.

Wait.....it teaches poor people to kill. The officers get to give the orders to kill.


And by the way, fuck Israel. They have nukes. They spy on US. They do not comply with UN resolutions. Much like Iraq.

[Liberal Genius]

Oh really.
What's beyond hope are civilizations that rely on a military presence throughout the world to project control and power. It fails time after time.
Maybe YOU have a naive ignorant ethnocentric worldview. If you think for one second that the military doesn't teach people to kill, then I guess you missed out on basic training for Vietnam.

Wait.....it teaches poor people to kill. The officers get to give the orders to kill.


And by the way, fuck Israel. They have nukes. They spy on US. They do not comply with UN resolutions. Much like Iraq.

TGR Lemon Party has found a new member!

[Craven Morehead]

You seem to be suggesting that being a member of the nuclear club has stabilised and bestowed security on Israel. Without arguing that particular point, how can this aspiration thus represent an irrational aim for Iran?

You also state that Israel isn't supporting international terrorist organisations. I guess that would hinge around how you chose to define the word 'terrorist'. Read Amnesty International's 21 February 2001 report on Israel and the Occupied Territories: State Assassinations and Other Unlawful Killings and most would probably class these extrajudicial murders as state sponsored terrorism.

You state that Iran's "present deterrents have been strong enough to prevent military or significant economic actions against their present policies that the West is trying to oppose" and I would tend to agree but look at the title of this thread. That bombing Iran is even up for discussion seems a strong argument to build a more formidable deterrent to military incursion, especially for a state with such a siege mentality. Not to mention the half million killed when Saddam - armed by the West - decided that Iran's deterrents weren't up to snuff.

Iran's meddlings in regional security and its sponsorship of terrorism are directly attributable to what it perceives as Western threats against its sovereignty. To be honest, given what happened in 1953, it's understandable. Britain, with the help of the CIA, overthrew Iran's democratically elected administration and installed the puppet Shah. Everything it has done since 1979 has, rightly or wrongly, been designed to prevent the nation ever being in a position where that can happen again. [i]Are you seriously telling me that if you were Iranian, you'd be doing anything other than trying to develop a nuclear deterrent? It's the only rational thing to do.[/i]

Hit the nail on the head there.
How about a complete run down of CIA ops with resultant blowback?

Think the US Britain and Israel don't sponsor terrorist false-flag operations?
How about this little goody dreamed up by our own loving military:

http://www.wrhlive.com/northwoods.html


or our own Rummy hoping for a corrective terrorist attack:

Audio of Rumsfeld on Iraq creates buzz
Audio of luncheon with media military analysts posted on Newsvine
MSNBC
updated 4:47 p.m. MT, Wed., May. 14, 2008
The blogosphere has been abuzz about the Internet posting of audio of a luncheon former Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld held with media military analysts that provides insight into the relationship between those analysts and the Pentagon.

The Pentagon released the audio in response to requests filed by The New York Times under the Freedom of Information Act.

On April 20, The Times published "Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon’s Hidden Hand," in which reporter David Barstow detailed a "Pentagon information apparatus that has used those analysts in a campaign to generate favorable news coverage of the administration’s wartime performance.”

The government released the audio, which lasts nearly an hour, on May 8. Jack Gillis, a 55-year-old self-described news junkie, downloaded it over the past weekend and analyzed it.

His findings, which he posted Monday on his Newsvine account (MSNBC is the owner of Newsvine), include a review of eight clips totaling nearly 10 minutes. Gillis, an adjunct professor of composition and rhetoric at a community college, also provides a link to the full audio.

The luncheon was held in December 2006, a month after Rumsfeld resigned as defense secretary.

The clips Gillis provides include one in which the media analysts suggest, with Rumsfeld's agreement, that Iraq needs an authoritarian dictator. In another, Rumsfeld suggests that the American public lacked the "maturity" to understand that the nation remained under threat from terrorists and that the only "correction" would be another attack on the U.S.
Gillis said that since he posted the analysis and audio on Monday, he has been fielding e-mails and phone calls and has had his work picked up by other blogs, including huffingtonpost.com.

The full audio, clips, analysis and links to other blogs can be found on his Newsvine account.


© 2008 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24629509/


With the fact that the US is the only country to use nukes against civilians
what are the options for the rest of the world?
Cower and do our bidding?
If you were Iranian or Palestinian would you just squat and pee like a whipped dog everytime the US lifts its rolled up newspaper?

[gh444]

Oh, yes. Totally forgot about the Y2K glitch which effected the art of war.

That's why this book is irrelevant today too-

Obviously you never read it but it is interesting that you picked the book that Hitler kept on his nightstand.

[Liberal Genius]

Obviously you never read it but it is interesting that you picked the book that Hitler kept on his nightstand.

It's an audio book, why would I read it?

[Dexter Rutecki]

You also state that Israel isn't supporting international terrorist organisations. I guess that would hinge around how you chose to define the word 'terrorist'. Read Amnesty International's 21 February 2001 report on Israel and the Occupied Territories: State Assassinations and Other Unlawful Killings and most would probably class these extrajudicial murders as state sponsored terrorism.

Killing terrorists is terrorism? By the above logic the U.S. deposing the Taliban should be considered terrorism.

Extrajudicial murders?? The day Hamas turns over the bomb-makers, rocket launchers, and would-be suicide bombers I have no doubt the targeted killings of militants would end (not going to happen since it is Hamas that supports such terrorism).


Amnesty hardly has a clean track record in judging what goes on with Palestinian terror groups, and has a history of ignoring what leads to the Israeli actions against terrorists.

Sadly, the fact is that since Israel has gone after the Hamas terrorists aggressively terrorist strikes within Israel have been down to about 1/100th what they were before. The same thing happened during the occupation of Bethlehem and other areas following a period of heavy terrorism in Israel. That doesn't leave the Israeli government with much choice in what it has to do.

If the Palestinians want to change how this works, they can--Abbas seems to want to, but his Gaza counterparts don't want that to happen. But blurring the distinction between terrorist acts and actions meant to kill terrorists isn't helpful to anyone.

[Roo]

Dex - I think yours and my views will remain fundamentally irreconcilable on this issue.

[timvwcom]

Dexter... Not that I disagree with anything specific in your post ^^, but I do think it might be missing some fundamental points/understandings;

Tit for tat like the Israel/Palestine situation is likely human nature... It's become a "chicken/egg" dilemma, and the resolution will have to deal with long ingrained views on both sides. WE have been raised seeing the "western" viewpoint on news and in the political speeches, but much of the Arab world has been raised on just the opposite. The participants themselves have a MUCH more personal indoctrination into one side or the other, they are basically born into it, consider it maybe akin to a religion? It is probably unreasonable to expect a single individual on either side to be able to "see" the situation as detached as you or I see it.

And as far as "methods", I see it much as you do I expect. But I can imagine being on the Palestinian side and feeling powerless and oppressed, who can say how I'd feel and what I'd be willing to do were it I? Also, it's easy for anyone in the West to label the Palestinians as "terrorists" today... but just remember it was probably just as easy to label America's freedom fighters "terrorists" back in their day. Instead of marching in nice neat columns/rows in fancy color coordinated suits and taking pot shots at each other in organized volleys like "real soldiers" did in their day, the Americans hid behind trees and took "sniper" shots etc. It was considered VERY POOR FORM in their day.

[13]

Sadly, the fact is that since Israel has gone after the Hamas terrorists aggressively terrorist strikes within Israel have been down to about 1/100th what they were before. The same thing happened during the occupation of Bethlehem and other areas following a period of heavy terrorism in Israel. That doesn't leave the Israeli government with much choice in what it has to do.

re: bethlehem

they erected a fucking wall with armed checkpoints around the palestinians in bethlehem. if that isn't divisive, i don't know what is... plenty of palestinians have jobs on the other side of the wall and passing through checkpoints is probably worse than dealing with TSA when we travel by air. it has also made the poor palestinians in bethlehem poorer, since a lot of them lost jobs they had on the other side of the wall, or their businesses on their side of the wall was affected by the segregation.

which, by the way, may foment more hatred of israel; after all, it is typically poor and undereducated youth that sign up to fight perceived injustices.

[AstroPax]

after all, it is typically poor and undereducated youth that sign up to fight perceived injustices.

I'm sorry, but you are full of shit on that one.

Suicide bombers, for example, come from a wide-variety of backgrounds, age, education, and income levels.

And I suppose the fact that Islamic clerics are brainwashing Palestinian youth... indoctrinating them with lies and promising they will go to paradise if they kill Israelis by blowing themselves to smithereens by detonating TATP suicide vests on public transportation and then targeting the emergency medical responders...doesn't have anything to do with it?

-Astro

[Rubicon]

And as far as "methods", I see it much as you do I expect. But I can imagine being on the Palestinian side and feeling powerless and oppressed, who can say how I'd feel and what I'd be willing to do were it I?

Really? So you think you might be willing to blow up buses full of women and children? You are seriously saying that you might murder children if you were in the Palestinians situation?

Also, it's easy for anyone in the West to label the Palestinians as "terrorists" today... but just remember it was probably just as easy to label America's freedom fighters "terrorists" back in their day.

It would be except for the small distinction that British women and children weren't targets of opportunity in the revolutionary war.

[Rubicon]

re: bethlehemthey erected a fucking wall with armed checkpoints around the palestinians in bethlehem. if that isn't divisive, i don't know what is... plenty of palestinians have jobs on the other side of the wall and passing through checkpoints is probably worse than dealing with TSA when we travel by air. it has also made the poor palestinians in bethlehem poorer, since a lot of them lost jobs they had on the other side of the wall, or their businesses on their side of the wall was affected by the segregation.

...and, as if by magic, Israeli buses stopped blowing up.

[Rasputin]

Oh, and as for the contention that, due to the rhetoric Iran's President has spouted, that Iran is incapable of abrupt change. Look back to Iran's response to 9/11. They condemned the attack, and even ceased the "Death to the US" part of the daily prayer which had been a standard since the '79 revolution. Of course the Bush administration squandered that good will by calling Iran part of the "axis of evil", even after Iran supported the invasion of Afghanistan.

The enmity of Iran was intentionally cultivated as far as I can see, and the current rhetoric is aimed to further polarize them from the possibility of of peace. The racial and religious biases (atheists' contempt for religion is religious bias too) held by war loving Americans is being stoked to a fury, so greater atrocities can be rationalized. There is only one side talking openly about USING nukes.

[Jer]

Obviously you never read it but it is interesting that you picked the book that Hitler kept on his nightstand.

Yeah - 'cause anything that Hitler read should be immediatly burned!!!!

I've read books by Che Guevara and Mao Tse Tung. Does that make me a communist?

The Prince is about manipulation, not exterminating Jews. You may think manipulating others is bad and we should all just hold hands and pick flowers and stuff, but unfortunately the world doesn't work that way.

[timvwcom]

Really? So you think you might be willing to blow up buses full of women and children? You are seriously saying that you might murder children if you were in the Palestinians situation?

Are you saying that if Iran (hoping you read my [thought experiment] a couple days ago) had invaded and occupied and oppressed OUR country for a couple generations, and had killed the fathers, brother, sisters, cousins of our youth... And had found ways to nearly remove the ability for counter attack, you don't think a single American would consider those methods to fight back? Hell, some of our own youth walk into schools with satchels of weapons and leave behind dozens of dead students NOW even without the history of that kind of oppression. So to be clear... YES, I think "we" (you, I and our peers) are capable of similar atrocities.

It would be except for the small distinction that British women and children weren't targets of opportunity in the revolutionary war.

I'll have to admit I don't know enough to tell you IF or IF NOT citizens were caught up in the Revolutionary War... I can tell you they were in the Civil War, in both World Wars and in Viet Nam and now Iraq... So I find it hard to believe they weren't to some fashion for that one. I'm relaxing and enjoying Fathers Day so am not going to go find proof either way, you have the rest of the day off.

[Craven Morehead]

Really? So you think you might be willing to blow up buses full of women and children? You are seriously saying that you might murder children if you were in the Palestinians situation?




It would be except for the small distinction that British women and children weren't targets of opportunity in the revolutionary war.

Oh, and how about the collateral civilian damage(death) caused by the US military.
Shock and awe.

You DEFINITELY need to pay WAY higher taxes. If you really BELIEVED what you spout you would cut an extra million or so to the IRS......and a little extra to AIPAC.

Apparently you forget some of the children targeted in nam.

Or let's go over Israel shootings of Palestinian children throwing rocks for Christ's sake. Of course our own military would never open fire on things such as their own citizens......like Kent State.