You sure Bush won't be the one to bomb Iran???

[lemon boy]

israel? fuck! I was totally gonna guess pakistan.

[summit]

WTF are you smoking? Israel is OCCUPYING more land to build settlements in the West Bank every day! It was their land! Occupied by Israel! This is laughably untrue. Egypt gets more "Humanitarian aid" but Israel gets close to $3BILLION in military aid annually. You can't pick & choose which UN sanctions you want to enforce and which to ignore. The fact that the US did just that regarding Iraq is what enrages the Muslim world so much. This negates this opinion: It's all about Israel, remember?

Settlements are a bad idea because Israel will have to give them up for peace.

Golan, like Sinai was captured in a war. The war was not a war of expansion, but the territory was captured fairly.

Re the UN: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_...s#1950_to_1970 keep reading... it's a good place to start learning about the UN's "special" attention to the subject which has lead only to the suffering of the Palestinians.

You are an idiot if you think the "Muslim World" or rather Iran gives two craps about the UN as anything more than a political tool when working in their favor and completely irrelevant when not. The UN has been a failed institution for over 50 years and that's not just in the Middle East. The "Muslim World" is "enraged" as you put it over the "infidel's encroachment" on "Muslim Land"



Now, I ask you the same question I asked Roo:

This thread is about Iran's nuclear program and what to do about it. So, why don't you tell us if you think the Ayatollahs whose policy is "ill-advised bordering on idiotic" are rational actors, what you think their nuclear motivations are, and how you would deal with the Iran nuclear issue on through to the end?

PNWBrit, you can answer to... if you can...

I am interested in your answer to their questions... but I suspect you all are unable or unwilling to answer and will continue to ramble on about Israel instead...

[summit]

israel? fuck! I was totally gonna guess pakistan.

Pakistan is neither in the Middle East nor expansionist (excepting their long running feud with India over Kashmir).

On that note, Iran isn't really in the Middle East either... they are also mostly an different culture and ethnic group than the Middle East (Persians are not Arabs). Iranian Muslims are mostly Shia Muslims while most Arabs are mostly Sunni Muslims.

[Roo]

On that note, Iran isn't really in the Middle East either... they are also mostly an different culture and ethnic group than the Middle East (Persians are not Arabs).

Middle East is not the same as Arab.

[summit]

Middle East is not the same as Arab.

No, but I'd argue it is more part of Asia geographically and geologically than the Middle East... not really a semantic point worth that much argument...

[Roo]

Israel is expansionist? You'll have a hard time making that point when they seem to be constantly trading land for peace

I'll happily discuss this matter all day with a rational person but you just blew it there, bud.

[summit]

I'll happily discuss this matter all day with a rational person but you just blew it there, bud.

I think you are getting more than a bit emotional (ie not rational). You have demonstrated a penchant for making declarations without supportive arguments or evidence, but can you actually answer my questions about Iran? You esteem yourself to have superior knowledge there...

[Liberal Genius]

I'll happily discuss this matter all day with a rational person but you just blew it there, bud.

You call that irrational?

Nice cop out.

Take that as his concession Summit.

[Roo]

I'd get just as much sense talking to my cat, to be honest. I guess you like your victories as Pyrrhic as possible...

[summit]

I'd get just as much sense talking to my cat, to be honest. I guess you like your victories as Pyrrhic as possible...

I think you are getting more than a bit emotional (ie not rational). You have demonstrated a penchant for making declarations without supportive arguments or evidence, but can you actually answer my questions about Iran? You esteem yourself to have superior knowledge there...

This thread is about Iran's nuclear program and what to do about it. So, why don't you tell us if you think the Ayatollahs whose policy is "ill-advised bordering on idiotic" are rational actors, what you think their nuclear motivations are, and how you would deal with the Iran nuclear issue on through to the end?

[Tippster]

You cannot just bomb a problem away. The average Iranian is actually very pro-western and anti-mullah. The problem is with the revolutionaries running the Government doing the mullah's bidding. You want to change things in Iran? Go back to supporting - ACTIVELY supporting their opposition parties. Ahmadinejad is not securely in power, and the Mullahs know that if he's replaced with a moderate or (GASP) an academic then they are in deep shit.

Now for something completely retarded: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1213...googlenews_wsj

[Liberal Genius]

You cannot just bomb a problem away.

Tell the Japanese that.

[summit]

You cannot just bomb a problem away. The average Iranian is actually very pro-western and anti-mullah. The problem is with the revolutionaries running the Government doing the mullah's bidding. You want to change things in Iran? Go back to supporting - ACTIVELY supporting their opposition parties. Ahmadinejad is not securely in power, and the Mullahs know that if he's replaced with a moderate or (GASP) an academic then they are in deep shit.

Now for something completely retarded: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1213...googlenews_wsj

This is a very good point, and I believe the ultimate solution for Iran's government should come from the Iranians within. And this is why I said that bombing is the last thing we want to do, but what to do about the Iranian nuclear issue, an issue separate from Iranian internal reforms, if negotiations and sanctions continue to fail? There is a time limit here... or do you think you can foment revolution in the next year or two?

Regarding that article: I am an advocate of nuclear power. You cannot easily hide a nuclear program in plain sight with cooperative inspections. That said, the Saudi Government is not to be trusted. The saying "he may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch" is dangerous ground here. The Saudi government is among our most dastardly of "allies." It is why I so strongly support energy independence for the USA: it will allow us to extricate ourselves from compromising and destructive (both morally and with regard to security and economics) foreign policies aimed at short term economic security.

[The Reverend Floater]

Tell the Japanese that.

I would, but my phone can't seem to reach 1945. Maybe we can drop off a bunch of booze and smallpox-laden blankets, too?

Welcome to the 21st century. There have been a few, minor changes.

[PNWbrit]

I am interested in your answer to their questions

No you're not

... but I suspect you all are unable or unwilling to answer and will continue to ramble on about Israel instead...

[Liberal Genius]

I would, but my phone can't seem to reach 1945. Maybe we can drop off a bunch of booze and smallpox-laden blankets, too?

Welcome to the 21st century. There have been a few, minor changes.

Oh, yes. Totally forgot about the Y2K glitch which effected the art of war.

That's why this book is irrelevant today too-

[Roo]

You have demonstrated a penchant for making declarations without supportive arguments or evidence

I'd guess that's better than making declarations that are demonstrably false.

As for your original question - if we assume 'rational actors' (and don't you think it's pretty insulting to suggest otherwise?) then why should Iran's nuclear aspirations be any different to the UK's, China's, Pakistan's or indeed the US? Prestige, security, deterrence: the usual.

Iran has made foreign policy mistakes in the region. The US has as well. Britain probably more than both combined. Despite this, there is often the lazy and unhelpful reliance on portraying Iran as irrational, its leaders as mad, and its aspirations as entirely malignant. Ahmedinejad is an idiot but holds little real power in the country and is not expected to be returned in 2009. For all his talk, the president doesn't command the armed forces and has little influence on major foreign policy decisions.

I raised the Israeli issue because here is a clear double standard and one which the West is hypocritical about. Where are the demands to inspect Dimona or the threats that it will be bombed? We don't demand it of Israel, so why should we demand it of Iran?

[AsheanMT]

Now for something completely retarded: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1213...googlenews_wsj

Fuck that is scary.

[Roo]

Bush will not bomb Iran. He's already regretting his martial legacy. Weird how Presidents get all reflective in their end days. If we could just get them to stop pardoning criminal buddies...

[Roo]

Fuck that is scary.

It is. And is another example of one rule for one and another for Iran. From that well-know liberal organ, The Wall Street Journal.

[timvwcom]

Actually a quite good "discussion" here guys, thanks!

Just wanted to point out that of course LG picked the "audio book" version ;

[MTT]

You cannot just bomb a problem away. The average Iranian is actually very pro-western and anti-mullah. The problem is with the revolutionaries running the Government doing the mullah's bidding. You want to change things in Iran? Go back to supporting - ACTIVELY supporting their opposition parties. Ahmadinejad is not securely in power, and the Mullahs know that if he's replaced with a moderate or (GASP) an academic then they are in deep shit.

Now for something completely retarded: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1213...googlenews_wsj

Just Bomb the Mulllah ? Or how about just bomb every white building with a Gold roof??

At Sunset

[Roo]

My banner ad sponsored by Google at the top of the page reads "Meet Single Iranians here."

I am afraid they may be very hirsute. Rational but hirsute.

[MTT]

Bush will not bomb Iran. He's already regretting his martial legacy. Weird how Presidents get all reflective in their end days. If we could just get them to stop pardoning criminal buddies...

I always thought he was wrong to invade Iraq when we did. However I think we would still be there NOW. It would just have happened a bit later possibly with a little more international support??

[PNWbrit]

Summit I'm interested is www.masada2000.org representative of your views? Hopefully it was just a convenient source for the map you posted?

There's some really, really nasty stuff there including this list of "self hating" jews

"These whacko Leftist Jews are so drunk on their ability to empathize and "feel the pain" of their enemies that they simply can no longer call them enemies! Talk about the Stockholm Syndrome! Talk about excessive and misplaced mercy! Talk about disgusting Jews! And why do we Jews have so many self-haters springing forth among us? This can only be explained by someone with at least a few dozen degrees in abnormal psychiatry. Even an insane asylum would refuse to admit these sick, hopeless Jews!

What would make an educated Jew grow into a frustrated, embittered and rebellious writer, intellectual, professor AND spokesman for the so-called "oppressed?" Are their miserable, phony lives so filled with boredom and irrelevance? Have some taken one too many schoolyard beatings and found it far easier to simply side with their anti-Semitic bullies? Have they no pride in themselves as a unique and special people? Are they not overwhelmed with the magnificence of their long Jewish history? Do they not look back at the enormous sacrifices and dedication of their ancestors? Have they ever firmed up their backbone to stand tall as a proud Jew? Have they EVER exerted one-hundredth the amount of effort to fight against the enemies of Israel as they have against Israel itself? Or has Israel simply become to them an unwanted "step-child?" Does he prefer to see Israel a nation of lambs where lions once roamed? Does the sight of a strong, fighting Jewish soldier expose THEIR cowardice to such a degree that they now must attack that very symbol of Jewish Pride?

These little Jews are so filled with self-hatred and SHAME at their total inability to fight off the anti-Semites and enemies of Israel that they have no choice but to betray their own people. Do they think that by siding with the enemies of Israel they are writing an insurance policy for themselves should Israel ever be destroyed? Little do they know that an Arab knife will sink just as deeply into THEIR backs AFTER he finishes using them! You can be sure that just before a Jew is murdered, he is not asked if he is a pro-Palestinian Leftist or a proud Right Wing "fanatic" like we are at Masada2000.org!"

Edit: according to masada2000 Islam is just a cult