You sure Bush won't be the one to bomb Iran???

[AstroPax]

Somalia was a failure of the gutless American president, not the military.

...and a dumbass SECDEF, Les Aspin, who refused to approve the request of the U.S. commander in Somalia for tanks, armored vehicles and AC-130 gunships for his forces. This was before the Battle of Mogadishu.

-Astro

[Gripen]

Since US intervention went so well in Somalia.. US "interventions" around the globe have never really worked out, have they?

Worked out pretty well for Kosovo (and by proxy, Montenegro) after Europe dropped the ball....

Have you done any reading on what has been going on in the Philippines? I suggest you choose your examples/words a bit wiser.

[Arty50]

Arty, our diplomatic superiors from Britain, France and Germany have been speaking with Iran for how long?

but you're right we should wait. The question is whether or not we go with the failed North Korea playbook or with the failed UN playbook.

What I'm saying is we have only two viable options. Either we continue diplomacy or we do nothing. A "limited military action" is not a viable option. If you think it's going to remain limited, I have a bridge to sell you.

Iraq cannot currently defend it's own borders, nor can the US Military presence there. Heck, we can barely contain the shitshow within the country. Considering the fact the whole world knows this, I'd say it's a good bet Iran does also. Also consider the fact that said airstrike will probably originate from a US airfield in Iraq. What's the natural course of action when someone attacks you from next door, you go over there and beat their ass so they either can't do it again or don't want to.

Let me put this another way. Remember what happened when China warned the US not to cross the 38th parallel, but we did anyway. Now imagine we had just said, "Fuck it, let's forget about North Korea entirely and just go straight for Red China." Attacking Iran would amount to one of the greatest blunders in history.

But hey, let's do it anyway just because...

And just to lighten this up a bit:
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

[AstroPax]

What's the natural course of action when someone attacks you from next door, you go over there and beat their ass so they either can't do it again or don't want to.

The Iranians would beat our ass? Yeah, just like the Iranians kicked the Iraqi asses during the Iran-Iraq war?

You really don't have a clue.

The Iranian Air Force (very weak to begin with) would be decimated within a matter of hours, as would the Iranian Navy. Lacking air power, how in the world would you expect the Iranian Army to move, anywhere, except east?

I don't think you understand the magnitude of force that could potentially be delivered against Iran. One think tank study I read estimates that if the US (without Israel) attacked Iran, right now, there would be AT LEAST 10,000 strikes within a very short period of time, with the primary objective of neutralizing any potential for an effective Iranian counter-attack.

Not a viable option? Think again.

-Astro

[Rubicon]

A "limited military action" is not a viable option.

Is this your gut feeling or do you have some reasoning/information you are using to form an opinion?

Heck, we can barely contain the shitshow within the country.

You are mistaking Whack-A-Mole for fighting a war.

you go over there and beat their ass so they either can't do it again or don't want to.

Exactly how do you expect Iran to do this with conventional forces? Iraq and Iran duked it out for years with neither side able to make any real progress against the other. You saw what we did to the Iraqi military and how long it took. Yet you fear Iran? That doesn't make any sense.

[summit]

This thread has successfully attracted the scariest people in this community. The way that nuclear war and the technologies of murder excite a few of you is frightening.

Excitement and knowledge are two entirely different things. I can think of very few things more horrible than nuclear war. That is precisely why the strategy and possession of these weapons has been directed at the prevention of their actual use. It is why we must do everything we can to prevent the possession of nuclear weapons by those who would likely see to it that they were actually used.

People who are disgusted by simply having knowledge of these subjects are weird. It's one thing not to want to learn about it yourself, its another thing to disdain those who are willing to understand the subject.

[Roo]

You have little understanding of this subject. I'll try and help.

Iran's motivation is, if you assume a rational actor, to give it a freer hand to act even more aggressively in the region and the world. If you assume a less than rational actor (since they have religious fanatics at the helm) would be to bring out the hidden imam (armageddeon) or at least distribution to some of the many terror groups that Iran supports. NONE of these scenarios are good for the free world.

If you truly believe this bizarre false dichotomy, you are

a). naive
b). ignorant
and/or
c). mad.

The Iranians are people that you would be better served trying to understand. They're not sinister caricatures. Try reading up on Operation Boot/Ajax.

Do you know the reason why Khomeini was exiled to Turkey in 1964? This 'mad mullah' objected to a law passed by the Shah that gave US forces immunity from prosecution for any crime conmmitted within Iran. An American who murdered an Iranian could leave the country the next day. An Iranian who killed an American would be hanged. What a temerity, objecting to that entirely reasonable piece of legislation. Madness.

Strange how we forget the lessons of history. In 2003, popular opposition to the US occupation of Iraq was mobilised when Paul Bremer passed an identical ruling in Baghdad.

The inescapable fact is that there's only one nuclear state in the Middle East with expansionist aims. This same state has a catastrophic human rights record, consistently ignores UN resolutions and as a reward is bankrolled by the US. Do you think this would breed a certain antagonism if you were an Iranian? Not a politician or a mullah. Just a bloke in the street.

I'll be the first to say that some of Iran's foreign policy has been ill-advised, bordering on the idiotic but it pays to understand from whence it stems. Western states consistently fail to understand the strong sense of nationality in Iran - in fact the only country that I can liken it to is, curiously, Israel - their pride, their siege mentality and the devastating consequences that an attempted military emasculation would result in.

[Big Balls]

If you truly believe this bizarre false dichotomy, you are

a). naive
b). ignorant
and/or
c). mad.

The Iranians are people that you would be better served trying to understand. They're not sinister caricatures. Try reading up on Operation Boot/Ajax.

Do you know the reason why Khomeini was exiled to Turkey in 1964? This 'mad mullah' objected to a law passed by the Shah that gave US forces immunity from prosecution for any crime conmmitted within Iran. An American who murdered an Iranian could leave the country the next day. An Iranian who killed an American would be hanged. What a temerity, objecting to that entirely reasonable piece of legislation. Madness.

Strange how we forget the lessons of history. In 2003, popular opposition to the US occupation of Iraq was mobilised when Paul Bremer passed an identical ruling in Baghdad.

The inescapable fact is that there's only one nuclear state in the Middle East with expansionist aims. This same state has a catastrophic human rights record, consistently ignores UN resolutions and as a reward is bankrolled by the US. Do you think this would breed a certain antagonism if you were an Iranian? Not a politician or a mullah. Just a bloke in the street.

I'll be the first to say that some of Iran's foreign policy has been ill-advised, bordering on the idiotic but it pays to understand from whence it stems. Western states consistently fail to understand the strong sense of nationality in Iran - in fact the only country that I can liken it to is, curiously, Israel - their pride, their siege mentality and the devastating consequences that an attempted military emasculation would result in.

Europeans have no right to opinions on matters of geopolitics. Between their incredibly inefficient and incapable militaries to their supreme belief in "soft power" which gets nothing done to their long history of absolutely no success of any kind on the international stage, any European's opinion is absolute crap when it comes to geopolitics.

[hemas]

Europeans have no right to opinions on matters of geopolitics. Between their incredibly inefficient and incapable militaries to their supreme belief in "soft power" which gets nothing done to their long history of absolutely no success of any kind on the international stage, any European's opinion is absolute crap when it comes to geopolitics.

Interesting point...

And by following that lead, the US sould have not had any RIGHT TO OPINIONS on matters of geopolitics ever since the Korean war...

Everywhere you've gone, has turned to shit... Iran, Iraq, OBL, Somalia just to name a few deals... And then the UN and Yurp have had to clean up your mess (still cleaning, BTW. in Afganistan and numerous other places).

[Roo]

Europeans have no right to opinions

I'm really not sure what to think of this statement.

[Roo]

Europeans have no right to opinions on matters of geopolitics. Between their incredibly inefficient and incapable militaries to their supreme belief in "soft power" which gets nothing done to their long history of absolutely no success of any kind on the international stage, any European's opinion is absolute crap when it comes to geopolitics.

Sounds like you'd make an honourable exception. I think you'd love this guy.

[Big Balls]

Everywhere you've gone, has turned to shit... Iran, Iraq, OBL, Somalia just to name a few deals... And then the UN and Yurp have had to clean up your mess (still cleaning, BTW. in Afganistan and numerous other places).

Yep, those places were just El Dorado before we came along. The streets were paved with gold and they were the epitome and envy of all civilization. If only we didn't land a couple helicopters in Somalia and turned a beautiful paradise into crap ........ And dude you realize you just describe a bunch of places that Europeans tried to colonialize or conquer and then left it in a clusterfuck??? Oh yeah, I forgot, you've never seen a history book before.

[Big Balls]

Sounds like you'd make an honourable exception. I think you'd love this guy.

If Hitler is your example of good European politics and military at work then I think you got some big problems.

[Roo]

He's there as an exemplar of all the things you have just railed against. Hitler didn't believe in soft power did he? No, he was a can-do guy! No job was too big for Hitler to tackle. I think you and him could have shared a few Jagers and had a ball.

[hemas]

If Hitler is your example of good European politics and military at work then I think you got some big problems.

No, but judging from your postings, he seems to be your Idol...

Btw. what are these "history books", we only have Mao's lil' red book here in pinko commie country?

[PNWbrit]

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Europeans ever done for us?

[tuffy109]

........ And dude you realize you just describe a bunch of places that Europeans tried to colonialize or conquer and then left it in a clusterfuck??? Oh yeah, I forgot, you've never seen a history book before.

yeah, well without them, i wouldn't have a 24/7 help desk.

go ingerland!

[Roo]

And dude you realize you just describe a bunch of places that Europeans tried to colonialize or conquer and then left it in a clusterfuck??? Oh yeah, I forgot, you've never seen a history book before.

FFS, keep up.

Instead of doing a whole bunch of googling, save yourself the time and energy when it comes to the Middle East. Blame the British and/or the French. Guilty as charged.

[Big Balls]

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Europeans ever done for us?

It must be nice to be able to spend all your money on wine while we have to spend trillions of dollars over half a century protecting your sorry weak ass. You know eventually our politicians are going to get smart and stop footing the bill for your defense and allow little stupid stuff like Kosovo and Islamic radicalization spread over your whole sorry pussy weak continent. I can't wait to see how Russia slaps you guys around like little bitches in 20 years because we are no longer there as a detterent.

[MTT]

12345678

[Roo]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you didn't major in political science.

[PNWbrit]

your pussy weak continent.

Hey.... U.K. (edit for clarity U.K. Parliament just voted) just voted to dramatically extend detention without charge for tewhorism thusthpects.

A moron like you should be pleased we're following your lead on closing up these infuriating gaps in our defenses that civil liberties allow.

[summit]

Iran's motivation is, if you assume a rational actor, to give it a freer hand to act even more aggressively in the region and the world. If you assume a less than rational actor (since they have religious fanatics at the helm) would be to bring out the hidden imam (armageddeon) or at least distribution to some of the many terror groups that Iran supports. NONE of these scenarios are good for the free world.

The inescapable fact is that there's only one nuclear state in the Middle East with expansionist aims. This same state has a catastrophic human rights record, consistently ignores UN resolutions and as a reward is bankrolled by the US. Do you think this would breed a certain antagonism if you were an Iranian? Not a politician or a mullah. Just a bloke in the street.

I'll be the first to say that some of Iran's foreign policy has been ill-advised, bordering on the idiotic but it pays to understand from whence it stems. Western states consistently fail to understand the strong sense of nationality in Iran - in fact the only country that I can liken it to is, curiously, Israel - their pride, their siege mentality and the devastating consequences that an attempted military emasculation would result in.

You have not only completely failed to disprove my assertions about Iran's motivations with your "what about Israel" redirect which lacks not only evidence, but any counterargument whatsoever, but you have also brought up unsubstantiated and moreover irrelevant new arguments.

Israel is expansionist? You'll have a hard time making that point when they seem to be constantly trading land for peace and there are negotiations going on trade the Golan Heights to Syria for peace. Bankrolled by the US? Yes, they receive aid, not as much as some of their neighbors like Egypt for example. The UN Resolutions are mostly laughable (not all of them). Then again, this thread isn't really about Israel, that is merely a distraction you are bringing up here.

This thread is about Iran's nuclear program and what to do about it. So, why don't you tell us if you think the Ayatollahs whose policy is "ill-advised bordering on idiotic" are rational actors, what you think their nuclear motivations are, and how you would deal with the Iran nuclear issue on through to the end?

[Tippster]

Israel is expansionist? You'll have a hard time making that point when they seem to be constantly trading land for peace...

WTF are you smoking? Israel is OCCUPYING more land to build settlements in the West Bank every day!

...and there are negotiations going on trade the Golan Heights to Syria for peace.

It was their land! Occupied by Israel!

Bankrolled by the US? Yes, they receive aid, not as much as some of their neighbors like Egypt for example.

This is laughably untrue. Egypt gets more "Humanitarian aid" but Israel gets close to $3BILLION in military aid annually.

The UN Resolutions are mostly laughable (not all of them).

You can't pick & choose which UN sanctions you want to enforce and which to ignore. The fact that the US did just that regarding Iraq is what enrages the Muslim world so much. This negates this opinion:

Then again, this thread isn't really about Israel, that is merely a distraction you are bringing up here.

It's all about Israel, remember?

[PNWbrit]

Where did Israel get the Golan Heights from to now be apparently using them to negotiate wth for peace?

Why did they push so hard for Jewish settlers to colonize the area?

If you'd like to start a "was zionism really just ethnic clensing? thread we can meet you there.

Edit: damn you Tipp.

WTF are you smoking?

menorah huffing?