“Americans must trade some privacy for security"

[TomK]

Originally posted by hopped
...I think that Washington needs an enema, and I don't think it's going to happen, so as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the country will go further downhill, into a society none of us want. As I said, I'm jaded with Amrican politics, and don't see a good solution other than trying to change what is there and doing wrong right now. And that's temporary at best.

I've long wanted to have at the bottom of the ballot a choice of "None of the above, and the above are NOT permitted to run for this office again."

Just offering a cleansing solution that'll never happen. I can dream though.

[OJ]

I think government should be more intrusive. In fact, I hereby invite John Ashcroft to my home, where he can run his fingers through my underwear drawer; check my freezer for proper de-frosting and see if I'm failing to properly observe odd/even watering days. Then he can perform a visual body cavity search up my ass...for that matter, my dog and cat will allow him the same privilege.

Looking forward to hearing from you John.

[mr_gyptian]

Totalitarian views?? What I'm saying is that the constant demagoguing of the Patriot Act is ridiculous. It has not been employed to devolve our basic rights as screech monkey's like yourself claim. If it is employed to prosecute people that manufacture meth or pipe bombs. fine by me.

The examples illustrated seem to be using the Patriot Act in the same fashion as hate crime legislation. I wouldn't thingk it impossible for a lawyer to side step prosecution tactics such as these.


As far as these many "wins" for the revolution. Nixon defeated himself, pure and simple. He was a small, corrupt individual.

[splat]

God forbid we even consider someone in the government abusing and perverting any element of the Patriot Act to quash offending points of view, further their own political party's position, pad their pocketbooks, become a despotic ruler, or annihilate some portion of the population. That's as ridiculous as saying we would resort to torturing our detainees.

[optics]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
one guy whose fingerprints (admittedly a piece of evidence that has shown it has some chinks in its armor) were mistakenly identified in Spain as being on a package of detonators. HE WAS RELEASED unscathed when they found the mistake.

If you went through what he did (keep in mind it's his real name, not his internet alias), would you consider yourself unscathed?

Off the trail of the thread, just curious. Seems like a pretty ridiculous comment to me.

[iceman]

Mr._G, you are a fanatic nutcase, perhaps liberated to go with the flow of your crazyism by the sales figures of Fords in Summit County, or conversely the lack thereof.

You're not even amusing, which is the ultimate crime. I can take crazy people if they're funny. Or at the very least original.

[Schralper]

Boy I just hope to be treated as well as we've them in the Iraqi prisons, when the good ol' U S of A decides I'm a menace.





If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!!



Vote republican, its easier than thinking!

[Will]

The Patriot Act allows (among other things):

The right to freely monitor the activities political and religious groups without a criminal pretext.

New restrictions on open hearings and the public's right to receive information through the Freedom of Information Act.

The ability to stamp down on the dangerous menace of librarians who tip off the media to federal subpoenas of borrowing records.

Permission to monitor conversations between lawyers and suspects.

The ability to detain Americans in prison indefinitely without trial or criminal charge.
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.... and lets not even get into Patriot Act II.

We are having our rights taken away from us. When you say, "america is great"; or that "we are free"; some of the rights - those things that make America great - are the ones taken away by the Patriot act.

As as a friend of mine put it, "I'm willing to terror-die for a free society."

Now it occurs to me that such an argument doesn't fly with some. "So," you reply, "I'm willing to give that up. I'm no terrorist, I have nothing to hide."
We could go back and forth on this, with me trying to figure out how much of a right to privacy you feel entitled to; would you mind the police searching your house once a day just on principle, for example? But whatever....

So let's talk about human nature instead. Humans are nasty, evil little monsters. We do bad things to one another regularly and enjoy it. We not only need government to protect us from ourselves; but we need to be protected from government. Power corrupts, never forget that.
So let's take another look at the patriot act and wonder whether you would approve of it if Hillary were president and Reno was A.G. again? Would you be cool with those two having that sort of power? Are you sure that they would never abuse it? That it would only be used against "bad people"? (‘bad people’, by your definition, not including gun selling/hoarding 14-year old fucking religious zealots)

Fun Patriot Act fact #234 – Did you know the full name is: “Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001'. Yup folks, that breaks down to USA PATRIOT Act of 2001. Adults created that, never forget.

[Al K. Duh]

Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Further proof that a vote for Bush is a vote for fascist autocracy.

Vote for Kerry and help us out.

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

[/B]

lol!

I can just see the headlines now:

"Phillip Morris Ceo prosecuted as terrorist..."

"Monsanto Ceo prosecuted as terrorist"
(and if you know anything about "Plan Colombia" you will see that chemical warfare is indeed being conducted against the people of that country, and Monsanto has a big role to play in that)

but no, actually I don't see those headlines anytime soon

edit: doh! people already beat me to it on the tobacco thing...

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by Al K. Duh
Vote for Kerry and help us out.

vote for Bush and soon Iraqis will be as free as Americans... or wait, maybe I said that backwards.

[summit]

gyptian v buster is getting sooo old

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and I'm not a Republican for the 7928194187598415th time

this board is way left of center. thats why everyone assumes i am a "republican" :-p

"republican, conservative, liberal, democrat..." such idiotic labels and too simplistic IMO

i'm pro usa, pro constitution and ammendments, and pro freedom (runs, hides) and a bunch of other stuff too and then some more.

i don't defend with kneejerk reactions the "conservatives" or the "liberals" or tow party lines

i'm a moderate independent with extreme views.

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DARPA has a massive amount of projects. My grandfather used to do high level work for their aerospace projects. Most DARPA projects are great and will lead to a more advanced military and secure country for all of us. However, and people really need to understand this, the best agency OR PEOPLE can have some horrible ideas along with the good!

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TIA was set up to datamine from the thousands of corporate and advertising databases.

The key to TIA wasn't that most of this info wasn't already there, it's that htey would have all the data in one place for instant access and continuous monitoring of EVERYONE.

The Key to TIA

Previously, when the government got someone suspicious, they would datamine them and they'd get the info back in a day. TIA was made so they could have all the info in one spot so it wouldn't take a day. This means the government security aparatus has available info, dossiers, on all citizens, not just those they were particularly suspicious of.Once they had it all in one place, they decided, why not be proactive (standard abuse of power)? "Lets run algorithms on everyone in that database and see if we can pick up suspicious activity." So suddenlty everyone is being watched and scanned all the time looking to make sure we aren't up to anything "suspicious." Etc.

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Will Kerry actually restore civil liberties this administration took? I doubt it. Taking powers that law enforcement organizations and other security types "need to do their jobs" is as contentious an issue as was taking our liberties in the first place. If we give up rights to .gov, don't expect to get them back anytime soon.

The USA "PATRIOT" Act was not a left v right issue. Both sides of the aisle voted for it. It was a power grab. It was orchastrated by certain factions. They knew they had only limited time to get it forced through congress while there were in a "vote for security ask quesitons later" mindset. Had it come up a few months later, it likely wouldn't have passed. As it was, the Act only passed because the harliners compromised by inserting language that would allow provisions to sunset. However, as I said before, taking powers from LEO and other security types is as contentious an issue as taking our liberty in the first place. This is the concept that the authoritarian types are relying upon to allow the renewel and/or strengthening of the act in these "calmer" times.

Ashcroft is definately authoritarian, if not pro-totalitarian. (Missouri elected a dead man governor rather than have Ashcroft.) Anyone who has read the frightening Patriot II Act that he had drafted knows what horrors we are in for when another 9-11 scale event happens. But this isn't a left vs right issue. Once people get past the idiotic one dimensional scale the 24-hour watered down news agencies on the idiot box (and I'm talking CNN AND FOX and the rest of them) have thrust upon us, they will see that.

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This really does scare me. Ideologicaly loyalty beyond belief on both sides of the spectrum. Many people believe we are as polarized as we have been in a long time. To the libs, Clinton could do no wrong even when he did and it scared me. Now there are a bunch of conservatives who refuse to belive the W is doing bad things too. They come up with all sorts of thought hoops they then jump through to convince themselvese that "it ain't so" just because W is a conservative or the source was "left wing" or whatever. It all scares me. We should be Americans first and political ideology worshipers second. The Constitutions + Ammendments uber alles.

It is not a new concept, nor a "left wing" or "right wing" idea, but there is no quesiton that the current administration and many of their followers believe:

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by iceman
Mr._G, you are a fanatic nutcase, perhaps liberated to go with the flow of your crazyism by the sales figures of Fords in Summit County, or conversely the lack thereof.

You're not even amusing, which is the ultimate crime. I can take crazy people if they're funny. Or at the very least original.

Fanatic nutcase? That's what I love about you people. You treat conservativism as a disease. I express different opinions than your own obviously deeply held beliefs and I'm the fascist. The thought police around here is laughable. I can't tell if it's indymedia or moveon that sent you here.

That I'm not amusing to you, Ice, is of little consequence. Oh, sales are fine in Summit County. I really don't care what it is you do, but as I said before. I doubt it's much. you're on pace to crest 4000 posts by July. Get a job you hump.

[trainnvain]

I think what Ice was trying to say was that you're getting old. Your tone is crass and inpersonable. Your presentation of a subject alone tunes people out.
It's not the message, It's the messenger.
Dead horse. Move on.

[phUnk]

When it comes time to name names, I'm going to name mr_gyptian just for the irony.

[Ski Monkey]

Originally posted by phUnk
When it comes time to name names, I'm going to name mr_gyptian just for the irony.

Heh, that's pretty funny Mr. McCarthy.

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776

and I'm not a Republican for the 7928194187598415th time

this board is way left of center. thats why everyone assumes i am a "republican" :-p

"republican, conservative, liberal, democrat..." such idiotic labels and too simplistic IMO

i'm pro usa, pro constitution and ammendments, and pro freedom (runs, hides) and a bunch of other stuff too and then some more.

yeah you better run. The Constitution's been declared illegal... it was written on hemp paper

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by SummitCo 1776


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Will Kerry actually restore civil liberties this administration took? I doubt it. Taking powers that law enforcement organizations and other security types "need to do their jobs" is as contentious an issue as was taking our liberties in the first place. If we give up rights to .gov, don't expect to get them back anytime soon.

Giving up your rights: Popping out of your bindings and starfishing down a 45 degree slope

Getting them back: Hiking back to the top to retrieve your boards

(and no, there is no chairlift that goes to the top of freedom mountain)

[interloper]

So let's talk about human nature instead. Humans are nasty, evil little monsters. We do bad things to one another regularly and enjoy it.
http://alberta.indymedia.org/uploads...explosives.jpg

[summit]

uh... wth, interloper?

[interloper]

Apparently some people are confused on what happened 9/11. Is this a ploy to manipulate the American people ? In order to serve and protect some personal rights must be foresaken for the good of the country.

[splat]

Originally posted by interloper
Apparently some people are confused on what happened 9/11. Is this a ploy to manipulate the American people ? In order to serve and protect some personal rights must be foresaken for the good of the country.

Apparently some people are confused that under the guise of serving and protecting the American people, this country could rapidly become no different than any other totalitarian state anywhere in the world.

Is it not our freedom, civil rights, personal rights, privacy, and constitutional guarantees that sets us apart from said totalitarian states? Is it all really that black and white?

Every other country in the world, and virtually all have had attacks of some sort within their borders - Did they resort to panic totalitarianism and forfeit the battle to be free by bestowing unbridled empowerment to their governments?
Perhaps the ones that remain totalitarian.

black and white, black and white, black and white, black and white...

[hot_sauce]

just saw this saying for the first time today and it kinda made me chuckle. It was a context having nothing to do with the patriot act, but it seems relevant-

"if we don't change the direction we are headed, we are likely to end up where we are going"

[grrrr]

[PSA]In response to our needs for total security, we will now be changing the slogan to "America, land of the safe and home of the scared." [/psa]

[splat]

" Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children....what it was once like in the United States where men were free."

- Ronald Reagan