“Americans must trade some privacy for security"

[shamrockpow]

Originally posted by Evil E
i dont get it summit. I thought you were a republican. Dont you know that this is antibush propaganda?

Actually, traditional Republican conservatives (like William Safire for example) have always supported privacy and certain civil liberites. Civil Libetarians have always been found on both the left and the right. I just find it amazing that so many conservatives fall in line with Bush just cause he's a Republican, when in fact he's one of the biggest spender's in history and is presiding over a horrific decrease in civil liberties and government transparency.

IMO Bush just finds a way to be on the opposite side of 99% of my core beliefs and I'm not just a rabid left-winger. THat segment turns me off just as much as the religious right.

[grrrr]

This site is a very brief introduction to libertariansim. I lean toward many of their ideas, but have major problems with other stances.

First, the idea that taxes can be eliminated is pretty damn pie-in-the-sky. Yes, we need to scale down government, and God knows the Republicans have shown us how well they can lie, lie, lie in that regard.

Second, their stance on environmental free-for-all just doesn't cut it. You can't win in the long run when you trade the environment for jobs. In the long run, you will have neither.

Absent those issues, the Libertarians look pretty damn good.

As far as e-voting, consider a "permanent absentee ballot".

There is more and more BS coming out all the time about the Government censoring or peeping on dissidents. We are becoming the Soviet Union of America, and we need to stop it. I don't like the Democrats much, but I will sure as hell will vote for Kerry this time around.

[hopped]

I'm not very old. I don't have a credit history. I don't spend a lot of money, I don't have a lot of money. This really doesn't affect me. But that doesn't matter, because this will grow, expand, until the Orwellian society that is predicted by crazies and mocked by most is a reality.

What is trying to be pulled off behind the backs of Americans in ridiculous. Did anyone else see the bill that was introduced into the House that would give Congress the power to reverse any Supreme Court decision? This administration, and the party in power have no regard for any American's civil liberties, rights to privacy, or any other rights for that matter. Hell, I doubt any politicians have repect for our rights anymore, so long as they can still vote themselves a pay raise whenever they want.

/jaded

[mr_gyptian]

what the hell are you saying? you make this out to be a Republican/Democrat issue. What do you think John Kerry is going to do?

"It (The Patriot Act) reflects," he said on the Senate floor, "an enormous amount of hard work by the members of the Senate Banking Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee. I congratulate them and thank them for that work." While supportive of "sunset" provisions in the bill, Kerry pronounced himself "pleased at the compromise we have reached on the anti-terrorism legislation."

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act.

grrr, what was it you said about not posting about things you don't understand?

dubya dubya duby dot google dot com

[grrrr]

Oh, shall we google the quotes that support our views best?

In condemning the U.S.A. Patriot Act during his visit to Iowa State Monday, democratic presidential candidate John Kerry took a stance against the act that some have called the biggest modern threat to Americans' civil liberties.

Sen. Kerry, D-Mass., denounced the act in a speech to more than 800 people in the Sun Room of the Memorial Union. Kerry said the American people must stand up to protect the U.S. Constitution.

"We will not be silenced, we will not be intimidated," he said. "We will be heard and we will stand up for our rights."

Kerry, who voted for the act, said its original intention was to respond to the needs of the country after Sept. 11, and to expire with a sunset clause due for next year. He said the rights granted to the government within the act have been abused.

"Bush used the Patriot Act in a way that was never intended and for things that have nothing to do with terrorism," he said.

Cara Harris, president of the ISU chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said although Kerry originally voted for the act, his stance on civil liberties ranks better than some candidates'.

"For the most part, John Kerry's stance is one that a civil libertarian can support," said Harris, junior in liberal studies. Kerry said if he were elected, he would put a stop to what has become known as the sneak-and-peek rule, which are searches conducted without a warrant or prior notice.

"I know what it's like to be spied on by the government," he said. "It happened to me."

Kerry said when he returned from the war in Vietnam, the government spied on him after he spoke out against the war.

He called for the end of the "John Ashcroft era."

"I know the one thing this country doesn't need is an attorney general who spies on Americans," he said.

He also said he would end racial profiling.

"We are a nation that needs to bend over backward with the lessons we have learned in the past," Kerry said. "There is a better way to security than racial and ethnic profiling."

Kerry said to fight terrorism, the United States has to come out of isolation from the rest of the world.

He said the president needs to understand the fight against terrorism needs to be more of an intelligence and law enforcement operation -- not a military operation.

"This requires an unprecedented amount of cooperation [between countries], the very opposite George Bush and his arrogant foreign policy are doing today," he said.

Matt Denner, president of the ISU Campus Greens, said he fully supports Kerry.

"We need a candidate that can not only talk about the issue but can act," said Denner, senior in political science.

During Kerry's introduction, Denner said Kerry was his pick for Democratic presidential candidate not just because of his record on issues pertaining to the environment and energy, but also because he is capable of subliminal messaging.

"Last night I dreamed that I had played paintball and then went out for pie with John Kerry," Denner said.


… Most of it [the PATRIOT Act] has to do with improving the transfer of information between CIA and FBI, and it has to do with things that really were quite necessary in the wake of what happened on September 11th. But there have been abuses of that act. The inspector general of the Justice Department wrote a report talking about the way in which John Ashcroft and the Justice Department have overreached. (“U.S. Senator John Kerry (D-Ma) Participates In New Hampshire Town Hall Meeting,” FDCH Political Transcripts, August 6, 2003)

Save your propoganda, Mr. G. You like the Fascist regime. We get the point.

[hopped]

I'm not sure if that was directed at me, gyptian, but I'll bite. I don't think this is a partisan issue. I think it's bullshit. I think that Washington needs an enema, and I don't think it's going to happen, so as we keep voting for the lesser of two evils, the country will go further downhill, into a society none of us want. As I said, I'm jaded with Amrican politics, and don't see a good solution other than trying to change what is there and doing wrong right now. And that's temporary at best.

I'm going to a funeral and then out of town so I won't have a chance to respond to any replies, vitriolic or not. So ignore this post.

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by grrrr
Oh, shall we google the quotes that support our views best?

In condemning the U.S.A. Patriot Act during his visit to Iowa State Monday, democratic presidential candidate John Kerry took a stance against the act that some have called the biggest modern threat to Americans' civil liberties.

Sen. Kerry, D-Mass., denounced the act in a speech to more than 800 people in the Sun Room of the Memorial Union. Kerry said the American people must stand up to protect the U.S. Constitution.

"We will not be silenced, we will not be intimidated," he said. "We will be heard and we will stand up for our rights."

Kerry, who voted for the act, said its original intention was to respond to the needs of the country after Sept. 11, and to expire with a sunset clause due for next year. He said the rights granted to the government within the act have been abused.

"Bush used the Patriot Act in a way that was never intended and for things that have nothing to do with terrorism," he said.

Cara Harris, president of the ISU chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said although Kerry originally voted for the act, his stance on civil liberties ranks better than some candidates'.

"For the most part, John Kerry's stance is one that a civil libertarian can support," said Harris, junior in liberal studies. Kerry said if he were elected, he would put a stop to what has become known as the sneak-and-peek rule, which are searches conducted without a warrant or prior notice.

"I know what it's like to be spied on by the government," he said. "It happened to me."

Kerry said when he returned from the war in Vietnam, the government spied on him after he spoke out against the war.

He called for the end of the "John Ashcroft era."

"I know the one thing this country doesn't need is an attorney general who spies on Americans," he said.

He also said he would end racial profiling.

"We are a nation that needs to bend over backward with the lessons we have learned in the past," Kerry said. "There is a better way to security than racial and ethnic profiling."

Kerry said to fight terrorism, the United States has to come out of isolation from the rest of the world.

He said the president needs to understand the fight against terrorism needs to be more of an intelligence and law enforcement operation -- not a military operation.

"This requires an unprecedented amount of cooperation [between countries], the very opposite George Bush and his arrogant foreign policy are doing today," he said.

Matt Denner, president of the ISU Campus Greens, said he fully supports Kerry.

"We need a candidate that can not only talk about the issue but can act," said Denner, senior in political science.

During Kerry's introduction, Denner said Kerry was his pick for Democratic presidential candidate not just because of his record on issues pertaining to the environment and energy, but also because he is capable of subliminal messaging.

"Last night I dreamed that I had played paintball and then went out for pie with John Kerry," Denner said.


… Most of it [the PATRIOT Act] has to do with improving the transfer of information between CIA and FBI, and it has to do with things that really were quite necessary in the wake of what happened on September 11th. But there have been abuses of that act. The inspector general of the Justice Department wrote a report talking about the way in which John Ashcroft and the Justice Department have overreached. (“U.S. Senator John Kerry (D-Ma) Participates In New Hampshire Town Hall Meeting,” FDCH Political Transcripts, August 6, 2003)

Save your propoganda, Mr. G. You like the Fascist regime. We get the point.

Propaganda schmopaganda. A larger point to my post is that Kerry is once again doing what is politically expedient given the crowd he's speaking to.

also, in the past 31 posts. could someone please document a case where someone's civil rights were violated under the auspice of the Patriot Act. I'm sure there's some obscure drug bust where they used the Patriot Act to bust down someone's door and didn't follow procedure. What I want is something on the level of what J. Edgar Hoover employed under both Republican and Democrat administrations. Or say on the level of Janet Reno.

I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

Buster Highmen to the white courtesy phone, paging Mr. Buster Highmen.

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Propaganda schmopaganda. A larger point to my post is that Kerry is once again doing what is politically expedient given the crowd he's speaking to.

Newsflash, John Kerry is a politician. I'll admit he has an incredible talent for being wishy washy and crafting long, complex, and utterly meaningless statements. But do you think Bush used the same rhetoric when he campaigned at Bob Jones "University" as when he campaigned over Martin Luther King's grave?

(Actually it's the later appearance that really makes me want to hurl, talk about disrespecting the dead...)

[grrrr]

I'm confused. Should I vote for Mr. Bush because Mr. Kerry originally voted for the Patriot act or because he now says Mr. Bush has taken it too far?

Oh, and in answer to your other question:

a. Read the first post again.

b. Jose Padilla:

On June 9, 2002 Jose Padilla--a.k.a. Abdullah Al Muhajir--was transferred from control of the U.S. Department of Justice to military control. Since that time, Padilla has been held in a navy brig in South Carolina.
Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention. This is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and probably a violation of the 6th Amendment. It is also a clearly abominable violation of the democratic traditions of the United States.

Padilla has been accused of plotting heinous acts of terrorism, particularly the setting off of a "dirty bomb". He has been accused of conspiring with members of al-Queda, and planning to scout for that terrorist organization, using the benefits of his U.S. citizenship. President Bush has designated Padilla an "enemy combatant".

These are frightening accusations, and they may be true. Accusations do not give the President the authority to lock someone away, however. According to the laws and traditions of the U.S., the way to determine who gets imprisoned is through the due process of a trial by jury.

Jose Padilla may be a traitor and a terrorist. But he was not captured in Afghanistan with a gun in his hand. He was arrested at Chicago O'Hare airport. If Jose Padilla can be held without criminal charges, strictly on the say-so of the President, then any American can be. That is tyranny. We must put an end to it.

c. Brandon Mayfield
Brandon Mayfield, a soft-spoken lawyer who had been linked to the March 11 train bombings in Madrid, was released from U.S. custody yesterday after Spanish authorities said fingerprints on a bag of detonators belonged to someone else.
U.S. law-enforcement sources had been insisting Mayfield's fingerprint was on a plastic shopping bag containing detonators, found near a Spanish train station after the bombings. Newsweek, which broke the story, quoted an unnamed U.S. counterterrorism official as saying the fingerprints were an "absolutely incontrovertible match."

It's unclear what may have gone wrong in the fingerprint analysis. The FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office declined to comment. And Mayfield and his attorneys remained under a court-imposed gag order.

c. Brandon Mayfield


But shortly after Spanish authorities said the fingerprints matched an Algerian with a criminal record, Mayfield was released. His attorney, Steve Wax, said the release came after "intense negotiations."

"I want to thank everyone who was praying for me," Mayfield, a Muslim convert, said at the federal courthouse. "I want to thank my friends and family who supported me through what I will call this harrowing ordeal."

His three children, ages 10, 12 and 15, gathered around him while his wife, Mona, with tears in her eyes, stood next to him.

Mayfield recited a Muslim prayer: "God is great. There is no God but God."

Minutes later, his brother, Kent Mayfield, raced up and embraced him. As Mayfield's attorney tried to usher the family away, an angry Kent Mayfield turned to face the media.

"This obviously proves that this was a complete witch hunt," he said, adding later, "I would say to the FBI that they have some major explaining to do."

Authorities detained Mayfield at his Portland law office May 6 and held him as a material witness for the past two weeks. Authorities can hold people who they believe have information critical to a criminal investigation. The Justice Department has used the tactic in several terrorism-related investigations.

According to news accounts, Spanish police found the shopping bag of detonators in the back of a van at a train station hours after the bombings, which killed 191 and injured 2,000. The bag had fingerprints, but police were unable to find a match, so they consulted the FBI. Agents in the U.S. reportedly matched a print to Mayfield's. His fingerprints were on file because he once served in the Army; he was stationed at Fort Lewis.

Mayfield, who has a small law practice that handles some immigration cases, represented a man convicted of conspiring to levy war against the United States. Mayfield worked on a child-custody case for one of the "Portland Seven," a group accused of trying to join the Taliban to fight against the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks. Mayfield's client, Jeffrey Battle, was sentenced to 18 years in prison in the Portland Seven case.


DON RYAN / AP
Brandon Mayfield walks with his daughter Sharia Mayfield, 12, and son Famir Mayfield, 10, outside the federal courthouse in Portland yesterday. Mayfield's family insisted throughout his two-week detention that he had no role in the Madrid train bombings.


Authorities placed Mayfield under surveillance but reportedly felt pressured to take him into custody when word of the investigation leaked to the media. Investigators said at the time they weren't sure how Mayfield may have been involved in the train bombings, believed to be tied to al-Qaida.

Spanish authorities, however, expressed doubts from the start about the FBI's fingerprint match. Yesterday, officials in Spain released a statement saying the fingerprints belong to an Algerian, Ouhnane Daoud. The Europa Press news agency reported Daoud had a residency permit to live in Spain and had a police record.

"The extensive and meticulous work of the Spanish scientific police has determined completely that the fingerprint identifications are of the medium and thumb fingers of the Algerian's right hand," Spanish authorities said.

Mayfield's family insisted since his detention that he had no involvement in the train bombing. His mother, AvNell Mayfield, said yesterday that her son's release "just confirms what we already knew: Brandon is innocent." The family said he hadn't been out of the country in 10 years and had expressed disgust at the bombings when they happened.

The case could lead to a critical investigation of the FBI's fingerprint analysis, said Peter Neufeld, a co-founder of the Innocence Project at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law in New York City.

"If they got it wrong, it's huge," Neufeld said.

It would not be the first case of mistaken identity involving fingerprints. The Innocence Project represented a man in Boston who on Feb. 2 was exonerated in the shooting of a Boston police officer despite a fingerprint match at the scene. DNA evidence excluded Stephan Cowans, who served more than six years in prison, and a re-evaluation of the fingerprint analysis showed it was flawed, Neufeld said.

Two years ago, U.S. District Court Judge Louis Pollak initially barred fingerprint testimony in a Philadelphia murder case, saying analysts' methods weren't sufficient. He later allowed fingerprint testimony in the case.

Michael Saks, a law professor and fellow of the Center for the Study of Law, Science and Technology at Arizona State University, said that although fingerprint analysis provides strong evidence, it's not infallible.

One problem is that there's no scientific justification that only one person can match a fingerprint found at a crime scene, Saks said.

"You've got the fingerprint folks saying what no real scientists believe — that if you take any little smeared fragment of one of my fingerprints, that will match no other tiny smeared fragment of fingerprint of anyone else in the world."

Saks said fingerprint experts should start assigning a probability to their analysis, as is done in DNA forensic analysis. It may turn out, Saks said, that Mayfield's fingerprints are coincidentally similar to those of the Algerian suspect.

"You can't blame any investigator for saying, 'This makes him a person of great interest to us,' " Saks said. But if investigators say it's an absolute match, "it can turn around and bite them."

There have been plenty more. You just need to open your eyes to look.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
I'll hang up and listen for your answer.

Not only are you boorishly repetitive and unimaginative, but you have no sense of humility in that regard.

Buster Highmen to the white courtesy phone, paging Mr. Buster Highmen.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...riot+act+abuse

You insolent fuck, it's about the process, it's about what makes America different: due process. Aside from you complete failure to even begin to acknowledge any views different from your own, you purport to be interested therein. Hence, I offer to you:"go fuck yourself".

There's a big distinction between Republican philosophies and values and the crap that the current administration institutes as well as your own twisted wreck of misinformed opinion. Civil liberties are at the core of our American way and it cannot be argued that the Patriot Act is not an infringement of them.

I assume that you'll dismiss any instance of Patriot Act abuse as much as you've dismissed the actions in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Iraq, Venezuela, Chile, Nicaragua, Yemen, the White House, ad infintum.

Fortunately, there are Republicans of ethic, character and class with whom I can discuss issues and philosophies. With regard to you, I feel that I should mimic your style in offering a quote made by Ambrose Bierce about Oscar Wilde in 1882.


The ineffable dunce has nothing to say and says it with a liberal embellishment of bad delivery, embroidering it with reasonless vulgarities of attitude, gesture and attire. There never was an impostor so hateful, a blockhead so stupid, a crank so variously and offensively daft. He makes me tired.

[hot_sauce]

Originally posted by grrrr


There have been plenty more. You just need to open your eyes to look.

or at the very least try not to hang up the phone before listening

you put in effort, grrrr, but I'm not quite sure you got through . No worries though, not your fault

[mr_gyptian]

Buster you should click on links you send me to. The first doesn't work and the second is this gem.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/dudew...otactabuse.htm


thanks for the info.

Ambrose Bierce?? Hack media critic. ouch!!! you caricature yourself, how romantic, he fought alongside the great revolutionary Pancho Villa. Unoriginal?? you seem to have cornered the market. Viva!!!!

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Buster you should click on links you send me to. The first doesn't work and the second is this gem.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/dudew...otactabuse.htm


thanks for the info.

Ambrose Bierce?? Hack media critic. ouch!!! you caricature yourself, how romantic, he fought alongside the great revolutionary Pancho Villa. Unoriginal?? you seem to have cornered the market. Viva!!!!

I rarely offer the same tired cutsie-ism as you do.
Heh. I did check the links. And you prove once again that you're not interested in anything that doesn't support your view. I confess it was intended that you should pick out this one exception to the remainder of the data.
The romanticism is all yours unless you should decide to consider and possibly, however unlikely, even comprehend the facts.

[Buster Highmen]

This is pointless, mr_g. Call me out and I'll start the slashings you seem to so ardently desire. Join and S+M club or something and leave me and the rest of the consortium of cool alone, eh?

I'm assured that the majority of thinking people recognize the Patriot Act for what it is. Hopefully, they'll get off their asses and vote accordingly.

[grrrr]

Originally posted by hot_sauce
you put in effort, grrrr, but I'm not quite sure you got through . No worries though, not your fault

Actually, I'm amazed that anyone can't name several examples. For crying out loud, Brandon Mayfield was headline news - they searched his house without a warrant, confiscated his Quaran (and his son's Spanish homework), then let him go when it turned out his major crime was being Muslim. How we can tolerate that happening, even to one American is beyond me.

[splat]

Brainwashed individuals who willingly support the Patriot Act, and the outright abuses and control it gives to an oppressive government, fail to realize the difficulty involved in repealing said butchering of civil rights once enacted. It's kinda like that federal
tax on telephones enacted to pay off war debts half a century ago - shit, after a while everyone just gets used to it. And it remains.

I have only voted three times in my life. Once against Nixon, once against Bush Sr. and you can bet your ass I'll vote now to get rid mr_egyptian's pal,Shrub. Only these three times in my life have I felt the absolute need to participate in the political process - out of sheer necessity and the survival of freedom.

[mr_gyptian]

one guy whose fingerprints (admittedly a piece of evidence that has shown it has some chinks in its armor) were mistakenly identified in Spain as being on a package of detonators. HE WAS RELEASED unscathed when they found the mistake.

for fuck's sake, you deem this on the scale of Ruby Ridge or Waco? On what grounds?

[mr_gyptian]

Buster, whose rights are being violated or abused when a Meth manufacturer or pipe bomb maker are prosecuted??? Or was this part of your plan also. Ohhh that's right. Forgot I was talking to a former Weathermen benefactor.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html.

Once again, the revolution is over. You guys lost. The government is not out to get you. That is unless you've kept your pipe bombing, meth making friends.



Third link:

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the PATRIOT Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys. "They say they want the PATRIOT Act to fight terrorism. Then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft completed a 16-city tour this week defending the act as key to preventing a second catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas.

[mr_gyptian]

fourth link is about the Meth Man.

fifth link.

Pete Seda's charity was raided. IRS caught him sending money to Muslims in Chechnya.

violation?? I think not.


sixth link,

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/6353771.htm

who, what, why, where, when. This really supports your contention.


If this is getting thrashed Buster, please.

again, nice links.

[bdog]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

So then given this definition, Counselor Wilson should be arresting Tabacco farmers. Cigarettes have been proven to contain a "substance that is designed OR has the capacity to cause death or serious injury".

and yes, I agree that meth producers and dealers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I don't see that it is required to end civil liberties to accomplish that

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Buster, whose rights are being violated or abused when a Meth manufacturer or pipe bomb maker are prosecuted???

The meth manufacturer or bomb maker would be if their rights to due process were violated.
There are always innocents. What makes our government great is that we, as a people, are willing to let a few of the bad guys go in lieu of saving the innocents. This is one of the properties of a civilized peoples. Once a government is willing to sacrifice the innocent it is totalitarian and fascist.
No matter how attractive that is to you, it is a primitive construct and fortunately many of the fellow Republicans here believe that.

Or was this part of your plan also. Ohhh that's right. Forgot I was talking to a former Weathermen benefactor.

What's your plan? Do you feel victorious in your incessant ravings. While not having the honor of being a benefactor of the weathermen, it's safe to say I know much, much more about them, their intents, successes and aftermath than you do, you ignorant putz.
For example, you have no idea who Ambrose Bierce was or what he did. It's a common misconception that he fought with Pancho Villa, yet there is no evidence to that effect. You really should try researching your claims more thoroughly.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html.

Once again, the revolution is over. You guys lost. The government is not out to get you. That is unless you've kept your pipe bombing, meth making friends.

Au contrair, the revolution lives on, we won on many fronts and are continuing to do so. Fortunately for loafing free riders like you, the benefits are not limited to some pinchbagged entitlement scheme. Ayn Rand is so passe'. Long hair? We won. Blue jeans at school? We won. Sexual freedom? we won. Nailing the FBI for illicit surveillance? We won. Nixon? We won. Vietnam? We won. The list goes on.

Third link:

PHILADELPHIA - In the two years since law enforcement agencies gained fresh powers to help them track down and punish terrorists, police and prosecutors have increasingly turned the force of the new laws not on al-Qaida cells but on people charged with common crimes.

The Justice Department said it has used authority given to it by the PATRIOT Act to crack down on currency smugglers and seize money hidden overseas by alleged bookies, con artists and drug dealers.

Federal prosecutors used the act in June to file a charge of "terrorism using a weapon of mass destruction" against a California man after a pipe bomb exploded in his lap, wounding him as he sat in his car.

A North Carolina county prosecutor charged a man accused of running a methamphetamine lab with breaking a new state law barring the manufacture of chemical weapons. If convicted, Martin Dwayne Miller could get 12 years to life in prison for a crime that usually brings about six months.

Prosecutor Jerry Wilson says he isn't abusing the law, which defines chemical weapons of mass destruction as "any substance that is designed or has the capability to cause death or serious injury" and contains toxic chemicals.

Civil liberties and legal defense groups are bothered by the string of cases, and say the government soon will be routinely using harsh anti-terrorism laws against run-of-the-mill lawbreakers.

"Within six months of passing the PATRIOT Act, the Justice Department was conducting seminars on how to stretch the new wiretapping provisions to extend them beyond terror cases," said Dan Dodson, a spokesman for the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys. "They say they want the PATRIOT Act to fight terrorism. Then, within six months, they are teaching their people how to use it on ordinary citizens."

Prosecutors aren't apologizing.

Attorney General John Ashcroft completed a 16-city tour this week defending the act as key to preventing a second catastrophic terrorist attack. Federal prosecutors have brought more than 250 criminal charges under the law, with more than 130 convictions or guilty pleas.

Perhaps this reparte' is enjoyable to you, but as I said before, you really should go join and S+M club or something. But if you prefer to act the fool in this little auditorium, it's a free country after all. If you choose to display your poorly informed and stilted view of the world, that's your business.

Again, the link provides a variety of information, some of it is bound to support the totalitarian view that you espouse. However, the overwhelming majority of the information gives some evidence that there are some problems with abuse of the patriot act.

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian
fourth link is about the Meth Man.

fifth link.

Pete Seda's charity was raided. IRS caught him sending money to Muslims in Chechnya.

violation?? I think not.

You know. You're right. You think.....not.

[Buster Highmen]

Here's a left stilted list, if that's what you really want to ignore:
Civil Rights Headlines. Current article links.
Giving Up the Rights We Fought For, Veterans for Peace. Current article links.
Case No. C-02-3444 SI: "John Gilmore vs. John Ashcroft, et al., filed in United States District Court, Northern District of California, July 18, 2002, posted at freetotravel.org: "On July 4, 2002, Plaintiff tried to fly to Washington, DC to petition the government for redress of grievances and to associate with others for that purpose. He was stopped because he refused to identify himself before boarding the flight. ... When he asked the airline officials why, they told him the government required that the airlines ask for ID, but they could point him to no law or regulation to support their demand. That is because no such regulation has been published. For the first time in this Nation's history, the US government is using secret regulations to restrict First, Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights. ... Plaintiff objects to any requirement that he produce any government-issued document, whether it contains his identity or not, as a precondition of exercising his constitutional right to live or travel within the United States. Such 'internal passports' are anathema to a free society."
Michelle Madigan, Report Card on the Patriot Act. Government cites successes, while privacy watchdogs say failures and problems aren't publicized, pcworld, October 9, 2002.
USA-Patriot Act Abuses begin, gamersnook, December 6, 2002.
Big Hole In America's Security Net, CBSNews, May 30, 2003.
To Expand Patriot Act Abuses, Just "Reform" It, apfn.net, June 24, 2003.
Patriot Act Abuses Seen, CBSNews, July 21, 2003.
New Government Report Documents Patriot Act Abuses, TalkLeft, July 21, 2003.
Curt Anderson, Patriot Act abuses documented, Capitol Hill Blue, July 22, 2003.
ACLU News, Summer 2003.
Silence Isn't Golden, alternet.org, October 16, 2003.
z2003-08-02- Patriot Act Abuses, billseitz, last edited September 12, 2003.
Patrick Healy, Kerry pledges to end 'era of Ashcroft'. Says White House abused Patriot Act, Boston Globe, November 2, 2003.
Richard Siegel, Local View: Anti-terrorism laws are decades in the making, Las Vegas Mercury, November 13, 2003: "America's anti-terrorism laws have been primarily identified with the November 2001 USA PATRIOT Act. In the past week, reports have made clear that the act was misleadingly sold to the American people as a tool meant exclusively to fight terrorism. It is now evident that the law is actually being used in sweeping ways that go well beyond terrorists to threaten everyone's civil liberties."
Lisa Arthur and Amy Driscoll, FTAA Protests: Activists Say Many Arrests Were Unlawful. Public defenders and activists raise civil rights concerns as dozens of free-trade protesters face charges from disorderly conduct to aggravated assault, Miami Herald, November 22, 2003.
Maya Bell and Sean Mussenden, FTAA Protesters Describe Security as Police State, Knight-Ridder, November 22, 2003.
Eric Lichtblau, F.B.I. Scrutinizes Antiwar Rallies, New York Times, November 23, 2003.
Amnesty International Calls for Probe of Miami Protest Policing, Reuters, November 26, 2003.
Nicholas F. Benton, Iraq War Critics Sue After Winding Up on 'No Fly' List, Falls Church News-Press, November 27, 2003: "The New York Times reported Sunday that critics of the Bush administration's Iraq policy have sued the government to learn how their names ended up on a ['no fly' list] used to stop suspected terrorists from boarding planes. ... This latest politically-motivated abuse of power by the Bush administration, in particular Attorney General John Ashcroft, is only the beginning."
Abby Goodnough, Group Wants Investigation of Police Tactics at Miami Trade Talks, New York Times, November 27, 2003.
Jim Lobe, FBI Surveillance Plans Spur Opposition oneworld.net, November 25, 2003.
Charlie Savage, Patriot Act Hearings Sought by Democrats, Boston Globe, December 12, 2003.
A repressive embarrassment, Toledo Blade, December 13, 2003: "Without notification to foreign media outlets, the immigration and customs people are arresting, detaining, and deporting journalists arriving here without special visas. This is so even when they come from nations whose citizens can stay for up to 90 days without a visa if they are arriving as tourists or on business. ... If that threatening form of registration is not enough, members of the press arriving without the visas, which no one told them they needed, are treated like criminals, handcuffed as they’re marched through airports, photographed, fingerprinted, and their DNA taken."
Nina Bernstein, Crime Database Misused for Civil Issues, Suit Says, New York Times, December 17, 2003: "The Departments of Justice and Homeland Security are unlawfully using a national crime database to get local police departments to enforce civil immigration laws, ... The plaintiffs in the lawsuit ... contend that Attorney General John Ashcroft," Department of Homeland Security, and the FBI "are misusing the database. ... 'Ashcroft is not waiting on Congress, not waiting for the courts, but seizing power for himself under the guise of the war on terror,... It will work a sea change in the relations between police and immigration communities across the nation, to the detriment of us all'", said "Michael Wishnie, a lawyer for the plaintiffs and an associate professor at the New York University School of Law."
Ashcroft Admonished for Meddling in Terror Case, Reuters, December 17, 2003: "A federal judge strongly criticized U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft on Tuesday for violating a 'gag' order imposed during the first terror-related trial following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States."
Dan Eggen, Tapes Show Abuse of 9/11 Detainees. Justice Department Examines Videos Prison Officials Said Were Destroyed, Washington Post, December 19, 2003.
Edward Wenk, Jr., Threats to Democracy at Code-Red Level, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, December 31, 2003.
Mark Taylor, Northwestern escapes DOJ subpoena. Judge denies Ashcroft's request for patient medical records, Chicago Business, February 9, 2004: "A move by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft to subpoena the medical records of 40 patients who received so-called partial-birth abortions at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago was halted—at least temporarily—when a Chicago federal judge quashed the information request. ... The ruling is the first in a series of subpoenas by the U.S. Justice Department seeking the medical records of patients from seven physicians and at least five hospitals, Crain's sister publication Modern Healthcare has learned. Besides Northwestern, Mr. Ashcroft is seeking patient records from University of Michigan Hospitals and Health Centers in Ann Arbor; Hahnemann University Hospital in Philadelphia, owned by Tenet Healthcare Corp.; Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center and Weill Cornell Medical Center of New York Presbyterian Hospital both of which are part of the New York-Presbyterian Healthcare System; and an unidentified San Francisco-area hospital."
Ryan J. Foley, Activist group resists handing over list, AP, February 9, 2004.
Monica Davey, An Antiwar Forum in Iowa Brings Federal Subpoenas, New York Times, February 10, 2004: "But last week, subpoenas began arriving seeking details about the forum's sponsor — its leadership list, its annual reports, its office location — and the event itself

[grrrr]

Mr G.

Did I say anything about Ruby Ridge? or Waco? you are the only who brought that up, and it has nothing to do with the patriot act.

You asked whether the patriot act had resulted in any abuses. The answer is yes. The patriot act was used to justify breaking into an innocent man's home. Without a warrant. Another man has been held, without access to a lawyer for one year. He has not been charged with a crime.

Do you want more? People who are prohibited from flying because their names are the same as suspected terrorists? People who are prohibited from travelling because they don't have the proper identification? People who were beaten in cells because they were suspected terrorists? Unlawful use of the National Crime Database for investigation of immigration status? Unlawful Investigation of anti-war protestors? Attempts to subpeonea the medical records of women who had abortions?

Get a clue, Mr. G. These things are exactly what the constituion was drafted to prevent. This administration has already proven itself the lesser in comparison to the Nixon Administration. God help us if we let it pass.

[bdog]

Originally posted by grrrr
Mr G.

Did I say anything about Ruby Ridge? or Waco? you are the only who brought that up, and it has nothing to do with the patriot act.

You asked whether the patriot act had resulted in any abuses. The answer is yes. The patriot act was used to justify breaking into an innocent man's home. Without a warrant. Another man has been held, without access to a lawyer for one year. He has not been charged with a crime.

Do you want more? People who are prohibited from flying because their names are the same as suspected terrorists? People who are prohibited from travelling because they don't have the proper identification? People who were beaten in cells because they were suspected terrorists? Unlawful use of the National Crime Database for investigation of immigration status? Unlawful Investigation of anti-war protestors? Attempts to subpeonea the medical records of women who had abortions?

Get a clue, Mr. G. These things are exactly what the constituion was drafted to prevent. This administration has already proven itself the lesser in comparison to the Nixon Administration. God help us if we let it pass.

Very well stated, or in the vernacular: WERD!