Wilderness Brainstorm

[BushwackerinPA]

On federal lands in the United States, Congress may designate an area as wilderness under the provisions of the Wilderness Act of 1964. Wilderness areas are subject to specific management restrictions. Human activities are restricted to non-motorized recreation (such as backpacking, hunting, fishing, horseback riding, etc.), scientific research, and other non-invasive activities. In general, the law prohibits logging, mining, roads, mechanized vehicles (including bicycles), and other forms of development. The Wilderness Act is the legal basis for the National Wilderness Preservation System (NWPS). Wilderness areas fall in to IUCN protected area management category Ia (Strict Nature Preserves) or Ib (Wilderness areas).

Its my belief that horseback riders have a much bigger carbon footprint than a MTBer.

Horse – from the minute they leave there house they are driving a much bigger vehicle than the average MTBer is driving to get to the same area. Burning more petrol, and causing more CO2 emissions to be put into out atmosphere. It could also be safe to assume the average horse owner has more money than the average MTBer. There for distance they drive to get there mean less than to them leaving them open for burning more gas.

Horse – The amount of energy that is used to maintain the life of a horse is staggering. Each horse requires over 5400lb of roughage each year. The energy that is used to produce and transport that much food year after year ,drawfs what it takes to maintain a mountain bike.

Horse – Where does all that food go, its get left as horse droppings all over OUR wilderness trails. This is not healthy for the environment nor is the way wilderness is suppose to be, which is unspoiled, last time I checked a big pile of poop was no unspoiled wilderness.

Horses – are for overweight/out of shape people. In country that is at all time high for obesity, the last thing we want is something that promotes being lazy.

Horse – Leave horrible trail erosion, much worse than a hiker or biker. Also horses are much easier to ride on muddy trail often leaving damage that last for days.

Wilderness currently excludes Mountain Biker, a group of users that is being unfairly treated because their bikes are mechanical in nature.

Biker/riders leave a much smaller carbon footprint to and from the trails in fact in areas such as the wasatch in utah a lot of biker ride their bike to the trail destination. Leaving a carbon footprint that is minuscule compared to the trailer horses.

Mountain Bikers – clean up after themselves and do not leave as much bio waste on a trail as horse.

Mountain Bikes – are more efficient than hiking, and further distance can be traveled for the same amount of food than a hiker, therefore leaving a smaller carbon footprint.

A Mountain Bikes trail foot print is less than hiker and much less than a horse. Consider wheels roll smoothly over the ground and are maybe a couple inches wide compared to the pounding of a 1000lb animal with 6-8inch wide hoofs on all 4 legs it’s easy to see that bikers do not the cause the erosion that equine groups say we do.

Mountain Biker lead a fit lifestyle, if we keep limiting trails option to this group of people, they will eventually get discouraged and cut their riding down. The American government should open back up the wilderness designation to bike and promote it the general public as fun and safe way of getting to see parts of this great country that you can’t simply see from the security of your car.

Lastly the current wilderness designation quite often bans the biggest user group and the one putting the most equity into maintain trails and leave the one group that does nothing but to destroys others hard work, the equines.

Wilderness is great idea as Abbey said the idea of wilderness needs no defense only defenders, its great with have people pushing for this out there to conserve what is left from human development. The problems is not these people it’s the law itself. The law needs to be changed.

Abbey himself in Desert Solitaire talks about how bikes should be the only form of transportation allowed in National Parks and Wilderness, besides walking.


So to the rest of you out there I would like you comments and concerns, and anymore ideas why Mountain bikers should be allowed into wilderness areas. Like I said wilderness is not the problem its the way the law is written how ever long it takes it needs to be changed.

[Rontele]

[BushwackerinPA]

yep rontele that is mybrain on drugs...whatever. I thought your SS hippie ass would be all over something like this.

[Bunion 2020]

Everything you write may be correct, but you leave out certain important ideas.

1. It takes a lot of $$$ to be a horse owner, politicians listen to $$$.
2. Horses are traditional users and because Mtn Bikes showed up much later, we are treated as 2nd class citizens.
3. Changing the Wilderness Act (or the definition to allow mountain bikes) is a loooong, uphill battle. Until Mountain Bikers show that they are willing to take this on and that they have the $$$ to do so, we are going to get pushed around and cut out of areas.

[Rontele]

yep rontele that is mybrain on drugs...whatever. I thought your SS hippie ass would be all over something like this.

I am all for greater access for mountain bikers. Unfortunately, the battle grounds are not repealing the Wilderness Act of '64. That just is not going to ever happen. Rather, the focus should be working on maintaining existing trails and convincing land managers to allow for greater access at the BLM, FS, State and local level.

Also, a lot of your assumptions are just wrong. Arguing that access should be permitted based on a hypothetically (and IMHO) incorrect, carbon footprint argument is silly. Bunion makes the better point, mountain bikers have always been late to the game and thus are treated accordingly--as second class citizens. Only recently have bikers begun to organize themselves properly for effective advocacy and the dividends are paying off. You may not see immediate access to wilderness lands, but land managers are realizing that there is an untapped supply of trails needed to match the exploding demand.

[brettf]

Someone made the argument recently that banning mountain bikes was not in the spirit of the original wilderness act, but bikes as they are today didn't exist. I think going down that road is a lot more feasible... but I haven't heard anything since.

[Particle]

Wow dude. A lot of assumptions in that post that frankly, would polarize the other side even more for reading it.

I hate horses, but a pile of poo is a lot more of a wilderness experience to most people than getting the crap scared out of them by a mob of bikers rattling down the trail at 20mph.

Just sayin'.

[tone capone]

Mountain Bikes represent capitalism, high technology, and fun. The green party types that have taken over the Forest Service hate all three and are now on the side of the Wilderness advocates groups that have been pressuring them for years. Don't blame horse riders for mountain bikers being kicked out. It would be happening anyways. As a matter of fact, horses are next. The Gallatin National Forest travel plan already tried to get them off trails here that they have been riding before vibram soles were invented. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT YOU CAN MAKE NO MATTER HOW MUCH LOGIC IS INVOLVED that will convince the wilderness folks or the Forest Service that mountain bikers don't damage trails. They don't care, believe me. They want to make every place with a trail going into the woods wilderness and as long as mountain bikers want to ride trails in the woods, we will be their enemy. There is no compromise with this mentality. They want everything to be their own private wilderness experience without the intrusion of evil technology in the form of bikes. They own the Forest Service now too, by the way. The Region one policy here in Montana, invented by the Forest Service, creates de facto wilderness before it even becomes law by banning bikes from recommended wilderness. Coming soon to a western state near you. Go ahead and waste your time writing letters about how bikes don't do damage, and how biking is healthy and low impact and bla bla bla. Better yet stop being a bunch of pussies and ride the trails anyways, excluding exsisting wilderness areas of course, as that is where I draw my line of compromise. There is plenty of Wilderness. Over 3 million acres in the National Forest out my back door. If the preservationists want the respect and cooperation want the respect of bikers, they can try and find other forms of designation to protect their percieved edens from the real threats that were actually defeated for the most part anyways in the last 10 years. I say if we are a recreation and tourist based economy now, trail riding on bikes is pretty nonthreatening to the sustainability of wildlands.

[Mr. Altagirl]

Fuck it, they want to outlaw MTB'ers, I'll just start to ride like an outlaw. I'm actually looking forward to my first "encounter" on Mill D when that gets closed. I'm really looking forward to a government employee chasing me off of UPS as well. Adrenaline does crazy things to rational people’s thought process some times. Just like on Cops.

And just for the record, I love horses. Particularly medium rare with a nice red wine. Delicious.

[JoshP]

I just got a great image of you in a stained wife beater with a maniacal look on your face riding your bike around in a trailer park.

[tone capone]

Yeah, were all just a bunch of stupid rednecks. We just want to "tear it up" and defile the wilderness. We aren't interested in sharing. Come to think of it I think I might try and fit my rig with a nice gun rack! That would be sick. Maybe a beer can holder on my handlebar too.

[bagtagley]

I just got a great image of you in a stained wife beater with a maniacal look on your face riding your bike around in a trailer park.

gnawing on a big hunk of horse jerky drinking from a box of wine.

[Particle]

No dude, you've got it all wrong. You have to wear FULL BODY ARMOR without a jersey on and tearass down Mill D. With one of those helmet beer holders at football games.

And duct tape a can of oil to your bike. And poke holes in it so it sprays all the way down.

And post 'W' stickers on every tree.

And stuff.

[rideit]

Never ride without an airhorn and an M80, I always say.

[powdercow]

I agree with your position completely, but your arguments are way off. Get rid of all that "eating food is evil" crap, it's not relevant and it pushes people away, and p.s. all animals poop, even the wild ones.

Getting bikes allowed in wilderness area would be a huge win, and I believe its possible. In fact as I understand things, the "(including bicycles)" was added after the fact as a clarification. Changing that to say "(bicycles are considered human powered)" doesn't require repealing the act but it does require a lot more sway then we have now. Like Rontele said this goal a long long ways away. Get involved, build trails, be a good land user and the respect and clout will come.

Finally, can we please stop attacking the horse crowd. As already pointed out they will be in the same boat soon enough and it will be nice if we had a little less animosity to overcome in order to start working together.

[tone capone]

Bikes in Wilderness? We are never going to touch the wilderness act. Just forget about it. It is a total fantasy. I say let them have the wilderness. We as a society have created some great wilderness.

My point is that if they want more protected land, it has to be another designation that allows bikes. I will actively fight the wilderness crowd until they are willing to compromise for mountain bikes, which are the future of recreation in this country period, end of story.

[tradygirl]

Horses – are for overweight/out of shape people. In country that is at all time high for obesity, the last thing we want is something that promotes being lazy.

Ha! I can just see a politician telling the horse lobby this little nugget. "You, sirs, are fat and lazy. Now please don't pull your campaign funding."

Seriously, don't you think that's overgeneralizing just a wee bit? But, I guess all mountain bikers are just horse jerky-eatin' PBR swillin' loudmouth dirtbags, so you never know...

[BushwackerinPA]

Ha! I can just see a politician telling the horse lobby this little nugget. "You, sirs, are fat and lazy. Now please don't pull your campaign funding."

Seriously, don't you think that's overgeneralizing just a wee bit? But, I guess all mountain bikers are just horse jerky-eatin' PBR swillin' loudmouth dirtbags, so you never know...

I know I was only sinking to the same low everyone use against and overgeneralizes MTBers.

We ve tried being nice and rational for years(well before I ever biked myself) and that doesnt seem to work.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

I know I was only sinking to the same low everyone use against and overgeneralizes MTBers.

We ve tried being nice and rational for years(well before I ever biked myself) and that doesnt seem to work.

Nice dude, irrational arguments and assumptions are exactly what is needed on this issue.

[zion zig zag]

Finally, can we please stop attacking the horse crowd.

No, I hate those bastards. Every year they destroy the trails around here by riding when its wet.

[tone capone]

I started riding because when I was hiking, it looked like mountain bikers had way more fun. I never would have thought back then to kick them off the trail. I was like 95% of the hikers I see now. I said "hell yeah that looks like a fun way to enjoy the trail." Over and over again and never get bored. Without the walking downhill punishment on the joints. What a concept.

[JoshP]

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[tone capone]

If your talking to me, Josh P, you should learn to interpret ideas that are more than mere sound bites. And not for nothing, but redneck generalizations and stupid attacks without a nugget of wisdom whatsoever are not exactly making anyone here any smarter. Try and post something of value to this debate, like, say, your opinion and some facts and or life experiences to encourage me to give a shit.

[JoshP]

I was referring back to the opening salvo of this thread. We have beat this to death already, so I am resorting to poor attempts at humor, over actual intelligible discourse. I will kindly remove myself from the room. Carry on.

[bagtagley]

but redneck generalizations and stupid attacks without a nugget of wisdom whatsoever are not exactly making anyone here any smarter.

Neither will watching Billy Madison, but it'll help you recognize stupid movie quotes a little better.