Downhills (WARNING: I AM A MTB JONG)

[seldon]

I posted here earlier about trails in the SF area. Finally got off my ass and got the bike out of storage locker (I was moving) and rode around. Not having much time (finals are next week), I rode around the SF presidio instead of crossing the bridge and going into the headlands. There are some cool like 1'-3' wide trails (what is this called) which were fun to ride... but I don't know if its just my utter JONGish-ness at mtbiking or normal but everytime I started to pick up speed going downhill I would get knocked around by roots/larger rocks and go airborne for a couple of seconds and end up in a bush/against a tree.... which was uncomfortable. So I got rather timid on downhills, especially after realizing that above a certain speed when I hit the brakes all that happened was both wheels went straight sideways-2 wheel drifting- to the outside of teh corner, me still on top, but kinda problematic on narrower trails. Ideas? Should I just sack up and take the pain/bruises? Is there body armor beyond roadbiking gloves and a helmet I should be wearing to prevent shit from killing me?
Thanks
-john

[watersnowdirt]

1) ass over axel.
2) hands off the front brakes
3) and yes, bruises are part of the package.

Rock on mtb newbie! You're gonna love it!

[Big Hit77]

As far as control, you might look at getting a wider stickier tire that will give you better traction and give your brakes better control as well. As far as armor, the sky is the limit. Long fingered gloves, leg armor and forearm guards are nice to have although sometimes hot. As far as helmets, you might look at getting a more full coverage hemet like the Giro Xen or a Skate Lid style Bike helmet from Protec (Check out the Ace Dig, it's got a riot visor). Much past that, loosten up and your body will flow better downhill. You dont want to ride tense, especialy at high speeds downhill

[altagirl]

I say use the front brakes and the rear brakes in combination, but learn to use them right (i.e. without skidding - skidding just makes your stopping distance longer in addition to the loss of control). Do some tests in a gravel parking lot or something to get a feel for how much modulation you have (the amount you squeeze the brakes between the point where they start to work and totally lock up). Learn to get your weight back whenever you're braking hard or going down anything steep. Slow down before you get to the corners (or obstacles you need to slow down for), then let off the brakes and roll or pedal through them. And the advice on staying loose is important too. Don't lock up your joints, keep elbows out and loose on descents - you want to be able to use your arms and legs as extra suspension. It takes practice... have fun! And in the meantime feel free to wear as much armor as you're comfortable in until you stop beating the hell out of yourself.

[altagirl]

Oh, and as far as what to call your trail - if it's basically wide enough just for bikes or hikers, etc. it's singletrack. If you can fit a jeep or 4 wheeler on it, it's doubletrack. If it's 1'-3' wide, it sounds like it's a singletrack that's wide in spots.

[fondigley]

Yeah definately sack up. The rewards you will have in the long run will be worth the pain and frustration you are currently experiencing. You shouldn't need any pads, but this depends on your riding style, but they are out there if necessary. Like any sport, trial and error is the best method of learning. With some of the tips (listed in the posts), you should be a master by the end of the summer. Just ride on, and never give up, I mean never.

[seldon]

wow- thanks for all the tips!! Looks like the sprocket rocket forum is free from all the alias-using jackasses and fucktards currently monopolizing the Ski/snowboard area.

FYI, I'm on a hardtail: completely stock Trek 4500 (no "?" this time). Upgradewise- should I spring for clipless pedals and shoes first? Or would pedals/shoes simply lock me into the bike as it bore into large objects and being able to get away from the bike (on my flat pedals) be a better idea? Or would going for higher quality drivetrain (car term b/c i dont know what the correct term would be) It seemed like being able to pull up would have been nice at least 10-15 times...

pic of the bike

[fondigley]

Ride it like you stole it, is my first recomendation. Then upgrade parts, (if not the whole bike) when they brake. Don't just upgrade to upgrade. Getting hurt and braking parts is inevitable in mountain biking. Your bike looks like a decent starting point. Similiar to a bike I had back in 1997. If you are having trouble on the downhill sections, I would not recomend clipless pedals, yet. That mainly helps your climbing and pedal cadence in my opinion. I run two of my bikes with flat pedals, a downhill rig and a freeride/dirt jumper, and two with clipless. Get more comfortable on the bike first. Comfort is key, I believe I learned that on some good candy(edible drugs). Good luck and ride on.

(Good call White Chocolate, the clipless would help you become one with your bike and allow you better control of the bike, but I think you have to be more comfortable on the bike first)

[White Chocolate]

Something that you should practice is rolling over roots/rocks/etc... at slow speeds in low consequence areas, such as parks or easy trails without ups and downs. People that are just starting out don't realize how much your bike likes to roll over stuff. You just gotta let it With time you will learn how to pick up your front wheel and how to let the bike move more independently underneath you. Think of your legs and arms as independent shocks. Most importantly, practice lots. It will all come in time and you will be hooked (and wanting more suspension )

Upgrading to clipless pedels would be a good choice for you, because it will allow your feet to stay attatched to the pedels more thus gaining more control, and it is a good way to learn to pick the bike up underneath you to get over stuff.

Also get long fingered moto style gloves. and you can find cheap leg armor (shin and knee guards) on most online stores such as supergo and jenson for pretty cheap.

[altagirl]

Clipless is probably the best upgrade, because it transfers to whatever bike you may get in the future. But I'd get a little more comfortable on the bike first, then consider clipless pedals that have a platform around them. I have Crank Bros Mallet C's on my trail bike and they give a nice grippy platform so if I unclip to dab through a tech section, I can ride a while unclipped and clip back in when I want to. If you have lighter race oriented pedals it can be damn near impossible to ride unclipped. You sacrifice weight by adding the platform around the pedal, but it makes them more useful for a wider variety of trails. When you're buying shoes for clipless pedals you want a fairly stiff sole, but consider the terrain you ride. Are you going to be walking at all? Are there hike-a-bike sections? Is it muddy or rocky? If you get a race oriented shoe with hard plastic lugs and a rock solid sole - they're very efficient for riding, but not fun to walk in, and they're slippery on rocks. Personally, since I ride in Moab and there's lots of slickrock, I want a shoe that has tacky type of rubber on the lugs so it grips. My first shoes felt like ice skates on slickrock.

Beyond that, I wouldn't replace anything that didn't break or really isn't working for you. Once you think you need more suspension and disc brakes and such, you're better off getting a new bike. And basically, whatever drivetrain you have is fine until it breaks.

[sandytheskier]

This sounds kind of feng shuey-ey, but, remember that you and your bike are two totally different obejects which can move separately of each other. Learning to move your body in fluid separate motions (plat forming in all directions) is key to fast, smooth transitions.

[jayfrizzo]

Originally posted by sandytheskier
Learning to move your body in fluid separate motions (plat forming in all directions) is key to fast, smooth transitions.

This turn anyone else on? Pinner?

[hev]

all good points. some more things to (not) think about

relax. try and center yourself over the bike, or be slightly off the rear. brake way less than you think you need to at first. laern how to wheelie and bunny hop on some grass. follow someone better. and watch their line.

gloves are essential.

[CS]

Good points by all, but I might disagree a bit on the clipless pedals. It seems like he already has a lot to think about, and worrying about having to clip out when things get dicey might not be the best idea. I think it's in Seldon's best interest to get relatively comfortable on the bike first, then get clipless.

Along the lines of getting comfortable, Seldon, heed the advice above about being loose. If you are getting bounced all around, it is because you are as rigid as your bike. Like WhiteChocolate said, get out and practice in non-consequential locations. Curbs are good for this. Just keep going off curbs with a relaxed body, letting your legs and arms take up what the bike won't, and this will invariably transfer to your trail riding.

And learn how to use those brakes. Be preemptive in your braking, rather than just reacting. And don't just slam on them and lock up the wheels but rather "feather" them, or modulate, as Altagirl calls it. Basically it's just getting a feel for how much brake to give without locking up the tires. Good luck man.

[sandytheskier]

Originally posted by jayfrizzo
This turn anyone else on? Pinner?

That's not what I meant!

[Superstar Punani]

Originally posted by seldon
everytime I started to pick up speed going downhill I would get knocked around by roots/larger rocks and go airborne for a couple of seconds and end up in a bush/against a tree.... which was uncomfortable.

Think of when you go skiing and you have bumps in the terrain You know how you absorb the shock The same principles applies in riding.

When there's a root or rock, just "suck it up". As your front tire goes over, give the handle bar a quick jerk upwards, then when the back tire goes over you sort of pop the back wheel, like doing a bunny hop except the front tire doesn't leave the ground.

It's hard to explain....best practice like someone said is find a flat terrain- parking lot, field, etc....

A good exercise is to ride up onto curbs. This will give you the feel for what you need to do, then just apply it to obstacles.

So I got rather timid on downhills, especially after realizing that above a certain speed when I hit the brakes all that happened was both wheels went straight sideways-2 wheel drifting- to the outside of teh corner, me still on top, but kinda problematic on narrower trails.
[/B]

Locked brakes = lost control. One trick I picked up in my JONG days (not sure if it's right or not) is when the tires go into a skid I release it, then lock it, and repeat it (similar to the ABS system in cars). It feels kinda cool. Sometimes you would want to lock it up so you can slide around turns, especially fun in mud or hairpins, but tears up the trail.

[altagirl]

Originally posted by CS
Good points by all, but I might disagree a bit on the clipless pedals. It seems like he already has a lot to think about, and worrying about having to clip out when things get dicey might not be the best idea. I think it's in Seldon's best interest to get relatively comfortable on the bike first, then get clipless.

I agree it's easier if he gets used to riding first, I meant clipless is the only upgrade I'd really recommend while he's riding that bike, aside from repairs.

But come to think of it I learned on clipless right from my very first trail ride, and then went to platforms when I got a DH bike. Aside from a stop and flop in the parking lot, I can't think of any wrecks directly attributed to the pedals - it was all lack of handling skills and trying to do things that were way over my skill level. I'm not saying it's the right way to do it - but I'm pretty accident prone to start with and it didn't kill me...

[Crinkle]

it is kinda strange trying to give advice on how to ride, when most of us have been on a bike most of our lives. Here are a few of my suggestions. First, slow down, you might be loosing control due to going to fast. The more time you spend on the bike, the better you will become (its pretty hard to get worse). Sooner or later you will tearing it up anyway, best to keep yourself in one piece until then. A great way to develop your balance is to go out in your street/driveway and go as slow as possible, keep stopping but try not to put your foot down, you'll see ways that you can move your body to keep yourself balanced on the bike. One of my big problems was getting around switchbacks without clipping out and putting my foot down. I found a road with a moderate grade and started doing figure 8's on my bike, makiing the radius of the turn tighter and tighter, going both clockwise and counter clockwise on the slope. Worked like a charm. If you can, like others have said, increase the frequecy of your rides, this helps tremendously. If I don't ride for a week, then try to ride a technical section, i find it more of a struggle, than if it was the 3rd time on the bike that week.

most of all, have fun

[seldon]

I just thought of something... another JONG thingy-


Will hanging my bike by its wheel damage it? Cause thats teh way my families bikes have been stored for as long as I can remember....

hey seldon, JONG!
Thanks!

EDIT: how exactly does one bunnyhop?

crinkle-
i've ridden bikes most of my life, just on roads. it didn't help that I grew up (ages 3-7) on a sailboat though ... I'm only 16 so I shoudl ahve some time to catch up. and learn to spell

[altagirl]

I'm the same way. Riding a bike up and down my street as a kid (hell we didn't even have squared off curbs to jump off of) did nothing at all to prepare me for mountain biking. I never rode a mountain bike or an actual trail until I was 26.

Yes, you can hang your bike by the wheel or wheels.

[Crinkle]

hey seldon





















JONG. you asked for it.

only 16, no worries, you have years ahead of you. Sounds like you are just starting to catch the bug. I rode a few "real" trails in college, but only a few times. I didn't start riding a lot until last year, when I was 28. Might want to continue with your current bike till you finish growing.

[seldon]

I've decided I'm definitely interested in clipless after climbing a bunch today.

I read up a bunch and decided I want a platform of some type... not just a lil clippy thingy. I couldn't decide which to eventually get:

Crank Bros Mallet Cs

or

Crank Bros Candy SLs?

Any advice would be great . This biking shit is a lot of fun. 2 hours of riding this morning and I'm really beginning to see progress... moving fast down stuff I used to be creeping along and picking my route through. Nothing particularly hard or techincal, but a couple of big rocks and logs (big as in ~6") mixed in with a side hill is interesting for me.

It's keeping me sane during finals studying

[crashnburn'd]

I haven't tried the Candies, but I have Mallet C's and I like them. Easy to clip in, no mud problems...

[sandytheskier]

I wouldn't hang a bike by the wheel, it might take it out of true (perfectly round, which does make a noticeable difference when you ride).
Frame is a better anchor piece.

I had alot of trouble doing bunny hops before I went clipless. After, it was a simple hop and flick of the ankle.

[seldon]

Next question in the series:

The Judy TT fork is not cutting it. Got on a friends higher end bike (I think he paid ~1 grand in parts to put it together) and the difference in the fork just on a normal trail was truly phenomenal. He had some fox fork on his hardtail... 100mm of travel I think.

So, I headed my gaper ass over to mtbr.com and read up. And I realized that I wouldn't get shit worth having for under 200. And I figure that if I buy something I'd like to be able to transfer it to the next ride... which I could potentially put together as I both enjoy building things and am mechanically inclined. So, it seemed a couple of things stood out:

Marzocchi MX Comp
Marzocchi MX Pro

w/ or w/o ETA? - I'm not sure how much I would use this- no one I know has it so it's hard to compare.

These are just guesses for what would fit me, I don't know what I should be looking at. Here are a couple of guidelines of what I think I'll be doing:
-Mainly XC w/ climbing, I probably won't be car shuttling much if at all
-80? 100? 120? 10000000? mm of travel?
-Once I get more advanced more technical singletrack in marin headlands, currently on fireroads and relatively easy singletrack...
-Will not screw up the bike to hell (massive fork in the front, pushing me way the fuck back)
-Disk brake mountable - for the next bike which hopefully the fork will be put upon, which will (hopefully) have disks