Lib Tech NAS Back Seat Problem

**dookeyXXX** · 02-19-2008, 02:08 PM

Here's the skilly:

I'm skiing a pair of 188 Lib Tech NAS. If you are unfamiliar with the sticks, they are 99mm under the foot, twin tips, stiff from tip to tail. They are currently mounted on the factory line, which is decidedly forward from any of my other skis.

I have now gotten close to 10 days in on them in variable conditions and they seem to toss me into the back seat more than any other ski I have owned (other than another pair of twins with a similar more forward mount).

Now I am slightly notorious for slipping into the back seat to begin with, but these sticks seem to accentuate that and toss me into the position with regular frequency.

So the questions are thus:

can a ski toss you more into the back seat due to

1. the mounting point being more forward than normal

2. the stiffness

3. any other reason (i.e. being too much ski?)

Or is this merely a case of me being a gaper/wimp?

I really want to dig these planks as they rip on groomers and the rare /fleeting instances that I find the sweet spot and get them dialed in they prove to be a blast.

**MTT** · 02-19-2008, 02:26 PM

Under what conditions? where are you skiing when you feel the need to squat?

Oh
I vote Gaper

**cold_smoke** · 02-19-2008, 02:26 PM

Forward mount and soft tail which you have both of will do that for sure.

**Poop~Ghost** · 02-19-2008, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by dookey67

can a ski toss you more into the back seat due to

1. the mounting point being more forward than normal

2. the stiffness

3. any other reason (i.e. being too much ski?)

1. don't know... I would GUESS that if they are stiffer skis - then a shorter front part of the ski would translate into more ski movement against your legs... than say a tradition ski/mount. There would be less ski to absorb levering. on the other hand, a more forward mount would also make initiating turns easier in a lot of cases.

2. yes... I've always felt stiffer skis (explosivs) pushing me backwards if I get to neutral in steep terrain. They require appropriate form to drive them through turns. If you get lazy, the backseat is yours.

3. technique - obvious but skis w/ difference radius turns require more/less effort for making various length turns. So you can make that ski turn in the shape you're used to, but it might want to run longer. I would notice this the most on extreme cases like my old Axioms (130-110-120) - when I wanted a quick turn and they wanted to run.

4. Boots - are they tilted forward? when I remove the forward tilt from my kryptons -it feels like I'm standing up straight.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-19-2008, 03:08 PM

Conditions have been pretty much everything from knee deep blower pow and tree shots (Utah) to pre-Spring Tahoe conditions (last 2 weekend in Tahoe).

I get thrown backseat more on low angle terrain than anything.

Libby's have a 19M TR, so they like to turn, but also like to run (chocking this up to the overall stiffness).

As for boots, I'm running 2006 Nordy Hot Rods.

So, factoring in a wee bit of laziness, should I consider a remount moving the binders back a few CM for adjustment?

**MTT** · 02-19-2008, 03:12 PM

Are you skiing any other ski's?

Same problem or not in the back seat so much?

**Dromond** · 02-19-2008, 03:14 PM

I remember having symptoms much as you describe on skis that were a little too stiff throughout for me, (especially in the tip) and mounted too far forward, (freeride line on twins.) Going to a more traditionally mounted ski with an easier flex in the front helped things a lot, even though the running length and weight was greater. I'll still get back in tight spots sometimes but overall everything feels much more natural.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-19-2008, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by MTT

Are you skiing any other ski's?

Same problem or not in the back seat so much?

Yup, skiing other skis (AK King Salmon, Blizzard Titan 9), not in the back seat so much on those sticks. In fact I was feeling like my BS problems were licked before getting out on the Libby's.

I've stuck with the Libby's because I want to make this ski my bitch, but I keep floating in and out of the sweet spot (i.e. I'll have a solid day and then a crap day and so on).

At any rate, they feel like they're tossing me more into the backseat than usual.

They are easily the stiffest pair of skis in my quiver (my long time riding buddy flexed them after witnessing me deep in the BS and laughed out loud...his theory is that Lib Tech made a hella stiff ski in the attempts to convert folks to snowboarding) and again, the mount point is incredibly far foward compared to other skis of like mindedness.

**yodaottis** · 02-19-2008, 03:39 PM

Dookey, I'm mounted about a 1/4in back from the factory line and don't experience that problem too often. I do experience it off and on, but when it's infrequent it's hard to pinpoint bad form vs. equipment.

I can say for sure I had a serious backseat problem on my first set of twins that were center (very center) mounted and it's taken me prob 20 days on them to not get that feeling. I still feel a little iffy on them when things get tricky but figured I'd give the center mount another season just to experience it and decide what my preference is.

I've seen others say it, and I agree that you can't get lazy w/ the Libs.
If I just finished a tough run and my legs are burnt out or I'm tired at the end of the day and start to relax and just let them ride...I'm probably in for an "oh shit!" moment before too long I've noticed.

My thoughts anyway, I'm not sure if the stiffness would be a cause so others can chime in on that bit.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-19-2008, 03:58 PM

^hmmm.

i was thinking about getting them remounted 1/4 inch back.

right now i'm on the factory line which puts my boot center right in the middle of one of the humps of the wavy edge. moving them back would put the boot center in the middle of one of the valleys.

the other thing i'm noticing is that they are working my knees something fierce.

i'm not getting quad burn, which leads me to believe that i'm not 100% pinto ridings (in the bucket seat), but still.

also, driving them on steeper terrain isn't so much the problem, much more so on low angle (which could mean that I get lazy on easier terrain).

i guess the problem is consistent enough with these sticks that i'm starting to call the mounting position into question as well as the overall stiffness of the ski (but I've skied stiffer planks okay before...the only other time i've had the terminal back seat feel was on the Armada AR5's I had 2 seasons ago...I ditched them after 3 days).

**avacadotoast** · 02-19-2008, 05:08 PM

Dookster, what's the tail dims on these puppies. I hate too much shape in the tail because it makes the ski grabby (especially in worked over sierra cement) & locks me into turns and zoinks me into the back seat. My new favorite skis ever are the new Big Daddy with a 125mm waist and 129mm tail....no hangup in that tail.

IF this is the case, moving the binders back should help.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-20-2008, 12:57 PM

additional info on the planks:

TR = 19M (they can turn pretty quick, but are not skittish straightlining. I never feel like they "lock" me into a turn.)

Tip - 139
Tail - 123

They are mounted with Dukes.

I use second gen Nordy Hot Rod boots, stock.

**bklyn** · 02-20-2008, 01:19 PM

**dookeyXXX** · 02-20-2008, 01:23 PM

^as long as they're leather and perhaps toss in some hookers and blow and i'll ride the BS til the day i die!

but seriously...

**oftpiste** · 02-20-2008, 10:00 PM

The thing I notice about mine vis-a-vis the tail and mount point is that on those occasions when you need a little rescue by riding the tail out of trouble or something it's so much longer than I expect which feels a bit odd, but I don't find they throw me in the back seat.

When I have been skiing on another, more conventionally mounted ski I do notice a bit of sweet-spot-finding adjustment period, but I generally can relocate it in a couple of runs. It is a different feeling ski though.

**barnescli** · 02-20-2008, 10:34 PM

i have your same boot, and having the same problem. the coaches at the str8line camp told me that a stiff boot and soft ski can help attribute to that, but it is also mostly form

**SkiOrDie** · 02-21-2008, 11:00 PM

I have noticed very consistently that as one goes to stiffer skis, you wind up in the back seat. Each time I, or the folks I know, have moved up to stiffer they have to really focus on getting their weight forward and keeping it there.

The theory I have is that the skis, when stiff, conserve energy. The edges hold, the ski flexes, and then it puts that energy back into your legs as you exit the turn. Like a big spring. If you're not exactly over them, you're in the back seat.

In my case, it has taken me a couple of days to get on top of newer stiffer skis. My kid learns more quickly and usually has it down after a couple hours. But, it does take a little while.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-22-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by SkiOrDie

I have noticed very consistently that as one goes to stiffer skis, you wind up in the back seat. Each time I, or the folks I know, have moved up to stiffer they have to really focus on getting their weight forward and keeping it there.

The theory I have is that the skis, when stiff, conserve energy. The edges hold, the ski flexes, and then it puts that energy back into your legs as you exit the turn. Like a big spring. If you're not exactly over them, you're in the back seat.

In my case, it has taken me a couple of days to get on top of newer stiffer skis. My kid learns more quickly and usually has it down after a couple hours. But, it does take a little while.

Damn, I must be a hella slow learner if I'm going on 7+ days and still floating in and out of the sweet spot!

"i have your same boot, and having the same problem. the coaches at the str8line camp told me that a stiff boot and soft ski can help attribute to that, but it is also mostly form"

I wonder what happens when your boot is sorta soft and your skis are sorta stiff?

As for form, yeah that's definitely a factor (I have been told I gravitate toward parking and riding), but again these are tossing me more into the BS than anything else I've ever been on to date.

I think I'mma remount 1/4" back from the line as per Gunderson's suggestion in another Lib Tech thread and see what happens.

The vain idiot in me is determined to nail these skis down as they get a lotta comments and it's kinda cool being the only cat riding flaming pink skis with wavy edges and screaming blue monkeys on 'em.

**oftpiste** · 02-25-2008, 11:41 PM

Last week in Utah I spent 3 days racking up vert with my kids at Brighton on pretty much my fave ski of all time, a Scott Mission Santiago 178, 89mm at the waist (yeah, a little short for me but how easy and fun to ski) mounted with Naxos at factory BC. This ski is incredibly forgiving yet does pretty much everything well. I can carve a high speed GS turn and drop my uphill hand to the snow with little effort. I can toss them through the trees without much thought. They even crud-bust pretty well. The one thing they don't do is feel terribly stable when traveling quickly and not on edge. I was thinking a lot about how they compared with the NAS's.

Sunday, knowing the Xtal Mt. conditions would be conducive to the LIBbies (188's) and with this thread in mind, I took them out on some very firm snow, practiced my carving (good technical practice on a 100mm-waisted ski, at least for me) and thought about the mounting point and the way these ski compared to the Missions.

First off, the way these things ski hardpack is amazing. You can roll them up on edge and - provided you REALLY commit to the turn - carve some serious turns. But you must commit without hesitation. I found that if I let off driving the ski for the blink of an eye before the turn was complete they'd start to chatter in front of my boot and I'd have to head for the back seat to avoid a slideout.

I also noticed that compared to the Scotts, the LIBs don't like to slarve. The Scotts won't slarve unless I tell them to, but the LIBS are hard to get to slide with any accuracy which I can do with the Scotts. I'm not sure of it's due to the longer tail/mounting point of the LIBS or perhaps torsional stiffness, but the ski just wants to carve and not slip out at the tail which means you really have to be standing on it when you turn, and if you're not in the sweet spot when doing so you will end up in the back seat in order to rescue the turn. The tip needs to be engaged throughout the turn to avoid getting thrown backwards and the tail is long and stiff which sends you right back forward if you weight it.

My conclusion after 20k vert of really thinking about how these skis performed and really concentrating on the technical aspect of what I was doing is that this is essentially an oversized carving ski. When people call them soft I wonder if they've been on them or if they weigh in at 25Olbs or better.

Long story short (not), this ski will throw you in the back seat and burn you if you don't ski it pretty precisely. That means really driving through and finishing your turn, keeping the shovel engaged and on edge, and it means you have to be on the sweet spot all the time.

Granted, these are the ramblings of a 49 yr old gaper, but thought I'd add my one cents worth. I'm not in any way suggesting I actually have good technique, but my sense is that if you're getting tossed around by these you're not standing on the sweet spot long enough or hard enough through the turn. Make sure the shovel's fully engaged all the way around then pop into the next turn as that stiff tails wants to do. Next time you take them out treat them like a GS board where you have to stay on them relentlessly strong and centered. When I started skiing them that way they started treating me better and I had a lot of fun on them.

**t.odd** · 02-28-2008, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by oftpiste

Last week in Utah I spent 3 days racking up vert with my kids at Brighton on pretty much my fave ski of all time, a Scott Mission Santiago 178, 89mm at the waist (yeah, a little short for me but how easy and fun to ski) mounted with Naxos at factory BC. This ski is incredibly forgiving yet does pretty much everything well. I can carve a high speed GS turn and drop my uphill hand to the snow with little effort. I can toss them through the trees without much thought. They even crud-bust pretty well. The one thing they don't do is feel terribly stable when traveling quickly and not on edge. I was thinking a lot about how they compared with the NAS's.

Sunday, knowing the Xtal Mt. conditions would be conducive to the LIBbies (188's) and with this thread in mind, I took them out on some very firm snow, practiced my carving (good technical practice on a 100mm-waisted ski, at least for me) and thought about the mounting point and the way these ski compared to the Missions.

First off, the way these things ski hardpack is amazing. You can roll them up on edge and - provided you REALLY commit to the turn - carve some serious turns. But you must commit without hesitation. I found that if I let off driving the ski for the blink of an eye before the turn was complete they'd start to chatter in front of my boot and I'd have to head for the back seat to avoid a slideout.

I also noticed that compared to the Scotts, the LIBs don't like to slarve. The Scotts won't slarve unless I tell them to, but the LIBS are hard to get to slide with any accuracy which I can do with the Scotts. I'm not sure of it's due to the longer tail/mounting point of the LIBS or perhaps torsional stiffness, but the ski just wants to carve and not slip out at the tail which means you really have to be standing on it when you turn, and if you're not in the sweet spot when doing so you will end up in the back seat in order to rescue the turn. The tip needs to be engaged throughout the turn to avoid getting thrown backwards and the tail is long and stiff which sends you right back forward if you weight it.

My conclusion after 20k vert of really thinking about how these skis performed and really concentrating on the technical aspect of what I was doing is that this is essentially an oversized carving ski. When people call them soft I wonder if they've been on them or if they weigh in at 25Olbs or better.

Long story short (not), this ski will throw you in the back seat and burn you if you don't ski it pretty precisely. That means really driving through and finishing your turn, keeping the shovel engaged and on edge, and it means you have to be on the sweet spot all the time.

Granted, these are the ramblings of a 49 yr old gaper, but thought I'd add my one cents worth. I'm not in any way suggesting I actually have good technique, but my sense is that if you're getting tossed around by these you're not standing on the sweet spot long enough or hard enough through the turn. Make sure the shovel's fully engaged all the way around then pop into the next turn as that stiff tails wants to do. Next time you take them out treat them like a GS board where you have to stay on them relentlessly strong and centered. When I started skiing them that way they started treating me better and I had a lot of fun on them.

great writeup, thanks for the thoughts....I went for it and ordered a pair last week, looking forward to getting them mounted up as soon as they come in!

**Conundrum** · 02-28-2008, 06:11 PM

This thread reminds me of what happens when TGR and Epicski give birth to something I don't know what to call.

**dookeyXXX** · 02-28-2008, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

This thread reminds me of what happens when TGR and Epicski give birth to something I don't know what to call.

Blame it on Lib Tech!

They made a ski that looks like a powder pig (massive shovel, crazy graphics), but performs like a carving machine.

Still contemplating remounting...will hit up Gunder for suggestions.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas.

**rip** · 02-28-2008, 11:03 PM

This is my second year on the libs. I now have them mounted with dukes.

With the lift the dukes provide these things carve like crazy. Stiff, and so fun. Happy either cranking big GS type carves or if you tighten it up you can actually catch air between carves. Snappy and responsive, crush crud, float pow. I have them mounted on the dimple and I am happy with them right there.

One observation I have that I will throw out there is that to me they ski better when you ski them very centered. If you are skiing the shovels they still ski fine, but shift your weight more towards the center of the ski and you can feel the magnetraction hook up, and when it does, hold on.

**oftpiste** · 02-29-2008, 01:35 AM

Skied soft, sometimes manky snow at Cypress Mt. today and they were epic (used that word for conundrum).

**yodaottis** · 02-29-2008, 07:29 AM

So far it's been an excellent EC ski. There's a little epic in everyone

Now those bastards have me itching to demo a magnetraction snowboard before the end of the season.
I have yet to meet snow conditions these don't handle well, although I've still managed to pretty much avoid any solid bump runs on them.