Question for the Mags: Career in I-Banking

[elchupanebre4]

I figure it's about that time every year that the high school mags start writing the "which college should I go to" threads, so I'll switch it up a bit.

I graduated college in three years, and hence didn't really have time to completely figure out what I wanted to do. The idea was to get back to Colorado to ski, but that ended up not materializing. I ran and continue to run a small little options fund with a friend, but for some reason it is only now that I really was certain that I was up for the career that deals with this type of stuff everyday (it takes sometime to weigh the many negatives of I-banking against it's positives).

Since I had no idea what to do I went into public accounting. I figured I could use that in whatever I ended up in. I'm now realizing that while I don't mind accounting, it's not what I want to do for the rest of my life, there's just some thing about big banking that makes you ok with working 90 hours a week and it seeming like fun (we'll maybe not as fun for the fust few years when your someone's bitch). Plus accounting isn't much better hour wise during tax season (hence the reason it's been a while since my last post).


So the question, what approach should I take to get a job. I'm currently eligible to start taking my CPA in California, should I do that, stay at my current job in public accounting and then go back to school and get an MBA or a JD/MBA? I figure this will at least put me on a recruiting programs radar instead of trying to nuke HR for the hopes that my resume will be read. The other option I see and wonder if would work is to just start putting in my resume everywhere. I've got one and a half years of public accounting experiance, and pretty good knowledge of the business world and financial aspects of it, but the top banks want big school guys, which I'm not from. I want to go bulge bracket, would rather not settle on a boutique, so I know my odds are stacked against me.

I don't really have any connections in the I-banking industry, and I came from a small West coast private college (degree in economics and english with further accounting courses at UCSB). My connundrum comes in the fact that the recruiting process happened in October, and it seems that for analyst programs starting in the summer, all the jobs have already been offered.

I realize this will forever jeapordize my skiing but I figure it's what I want to do. What's the next step. Anyone been through the same route? Any advice on what move to make now. Would taking the level I CFA help?

[Brock Landers]

I think the MBA/JD route would help a lot. I finished the MBA and am doing CFA now- which is a total clusterfuck bitch to study for by the way- but MBA JD is the more of the track for an I Banker. If you completed the CPA stuff, youd have a better shot at a business school like say...Stanford or UCLA...which would be a better shot at a bulge bracket. Or start as an analyst at a boutique (or wherever) and work a ton, save money, and go to school fulltime and come out as an associate dick waver at a bulge bracket firm.

[elchupanebre4]

Thanks Brock, I'm currently on a path that will get me done with my CPA, LSAT's and GMAT's by December so I could go through the JD/MBA application process if nothing materializes. I just don't want to waste time sitting around waiting for something to happen when I could be creating options (or debt for that matter). I'm guessing I'll end up Global Markets or M&A, so the law degree would probably serve me well for the latter, but will spending an extra two years getting said degree be really worth it?

If I go the school first route my only other thought is should I transfer to a Big 4 accounting firm after this tax season so I have a little more known name on my resume (I love my current firm). Can't figure out if having two year long employers would spook an investment bank or if the bigger name on my resume would outweight that factor.

[Stu Gotz]

If anyone tells you that being an analyst at an Investment Bank is cool and/or fun, they are lying to you.

Without having a rich old uncle, or a father who runs a Fortune 500 company, you're pretty much SOL for getting an analyst position at a bulge bracket bank. Most, if not all, are "direct-from-undergrad" hires.

Work hard, get your MBA (no JD needed), go through the on-campus interview process, get hired as an associate.

[Steven S. Dallas]

Only thing about big banking that makes it ok to work 90 hours a week is the pay (or your own personal issues, I suppose).

I don't think you need the JD to work M & A. I do M&A/private equity and don't believe that any of the bankers I regularly work with have JDs. If you were interested in law school and had an opportunity to do the MBA as well, I'd say go for it, but otherwise I wouldn't spend the money and the time. Spending some $30-40K for another year of school, when (assuming you get a good banking job) you could be making $150K+? I'm no banker, but that's a lot of money to pass up. Don't see it, unless you're really into the law school thing.

[Brock Landers]

Stu is right- if you want to do M&A I'd still get the JD, but if youre into the investing side (which by the fund you already trade with, you may be) hitting a good business school and kicking ass is all you can do. I think splitting your work experience into 2 1 year gigs would hurt more than experience at a big 4 firm. After business school, as long as you have a couple years and a CPA, youve done basically what anyone could expect if not more. Anyone else have others thoughts on that? Maybe the Big 4 experience is more valuable than I'm thinking?

By the time you get into grad school (youd have to start in fall 2009 Im assuming?) youll have the work experience and maybe more idea what you want to get into. The experience is key though- I just finished grad school with a good GPA and am getting screwed cause I dont have much investment management experience (didnt major in finance in undergrad).

[elchupanebre4]

Thanks for the input. I was figuring it's a tough battle to get in now, I'll probably polish off my resume and send it to my top five hopefulls, might not get an interview but at least I tried. I was tempted to go to CU for a JD/MBA, but I'm guessing since the business side isn't too revered it's probably best to pursue the best MBA program I can get into and if said school has a dual degree program all the better. Anyone have any tips to tailor a resume towards an I-Bank? I figure talk about the analytical and research aspects of my jobs and try and to stress my further education for finance, but I'm guessing my resume only has a cursory glance to get noticed so It'll have to be perfect. Who knows maybe if I'm lucky I'll have to solve the next problem of apartments in New York. That probably won't be too fun.

[Rontele]

Northwestern allows its JD/MBA students to just take the GMAT fwiw. Thus, you get to go to the #4 business school and #10 law school just by taking the GMAT!

[stump832]

JD would be a waste. You don't need one to make up the #'s that go in pitch books- shit, I'm not convinced you even need an MBA, though the banks apparently feel differently. Just get an MBA - the banks recruit like madmen at the good programs. So here's how I would suggest it might break down:

Get into a top 10 business school, network the shit out of shit during the fall, slay your interviews, accept an offer, come to grips with the idea of regularly working 100 hours a week, kick ass in your summer position, accept a full time offer, make 300k a year or so while sleeping 4 hours a day and never doing anything fun.

[ulty_guy]

Why not just become a trader. It's a shit-ton more fun than being a banker and has just as good, if not better upside and less hours. It doesn't take long to figure out if you're any good or not and then when u think ur actually good, u'll probably blow up.

[elchupanebre4]

Northwestern allows its JD/MBA students to just take the GMAT fwiw. Thus, you get to go to the #4 business school and #10 law school just by taking the GMAT!

This is actually my dream program. Not only no LSAT, but also JD/MBA in 3 years. You never sleep, but it saves a year and trains you for what is to come. The only problem is my 3.5 GPA would require a pretty damn good GMAT to carry me into that program. It's one that's on my list as apply and cross your fingers, but don't hold your breath.

Ulty- I've thought a lot about being a trader, it's just as hard to get in, if not harder in many places. I'm going into this realizing that if in ten years I get a family and have to get out so I can spend time with said family, I want enough expriance to get a job in corporate business. I'm not to sure if trading will give me as much opportunity. (and yes I realize the thought of having a family in this career is flawed, because when exactly do you come across women when you work in I-banking besides the waitresses and stewardesses you see while working?) I guess I realize I see lots of women now, but don't really get to far to begin with so why not take a sabotical from the whole social interaction with the opposite sex thing. I guess I-banking in a way is kind of like a ski town, there are a lot of dudes, most of said dudes only care about doing one thing all the time; for ski towns it's skiing, I-banking it's money. Thus the lack of women is tolerated becuase of the other vice.

[Steven S. Dallas]

I know a lot of hot women who work in investment banks. Tons. Don't worry about that.

If you want to get into Northwestern with a 3.5 then you might be better off taking the LSAT (and crushing it). Don't get me wrong, that's a good GPA, but as I'm sure you know, admissions are very competitive and probably getting more so as the economy cools and people can't come out of college and get sweet jobs (or get laid off and decide to go back to school).

[Rontele]

I know a lot of hot women who work in investment banks. Tons. Don't worry about that.

If you want to get into Northwestern with a 3.5 then you might be better off taking the LSAT (and crushing it). Don't get me wrong, that's a good GPA, but as I'm sure you know, admissions are very competitive and probably getting more so as the economy cools and people can't come out of college and get sweet jobs (or get laid off and decide to go back to school).

Another piece of Nw. Law advice (as an alum). I took off only one year between college and law school and was subsequently the youngest (or nearly) in my class.

They value work experience, and usually those younger kids (except me) had the highest GPAs and test scores.

[elchupanebre4]

Rontele, given my current situation, supposing I worked at my current employeer till next August, then went to school what would it take to get into NW? I got a 3.5 from a well respected but not so well known school with a double major completed in 3 years. I'll have my CPA and went on the International Business Institute in undergrad. Is getting in still a pipe dream in my situation? Would I have to ace GMATs and maybe LSATs and have a bomb interview to boot? Just on the Law school side am as qualified as you were? Don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm beggining to get the feeling that back to school will be my most likely option, so trying to get an idea of where to start. (On an aside I like Virgina's JB/MBA program as well, basically I'm showing preferance to a better B-school than law school as that's the field I'll likely be in more).

If there's still a chance I'm game to try, but I understand when it's time to stop going after the prom queen and talk to her friends instead.

[Steven S. Dallas]

Applying to law schools is much more of a numbers game than applying to b schools. Law schools claim that they want experience, etc., but most places will take the candidate with better LSATs and grades every time.

The BC law school locator is always fun! http://www.bc.edu/offices/careers/gr...tor.html#the25.
Wow, I didn't realize Duke was so tough to get into.

basically I'm showing preferance to a better B-school than law school as that's the field I'll likely be in more

100%, since you could go to a crap law school but still get a great job, assuming you're in the top of your class. If you're looking at b-school as a springboard to a career in I-banking, it had better be a good one.

[cranked]

For bulge bracket, you have to go to a "target" MBA for all practical purposes (some people I know were able to do it, but it is an uphill battle). There were some young people in my grad school class, but average age was 28ish. My advice to you would be to go the route of the Big 4 accounting for a couple of years...the experience is crucial in business school, unless you got a 3.9 at Harvard, Stanford, Yale, MIT undergrad.

If you can get a 760-800 on the GMAT, apply now. If not, round out the resume with Big 4 and skip the Analyst years. Biz school is a great break, and you can get into banking at the associate level from there.

[Rontele]

Rontele, given my current situation, supposing I worked at my current employeer till next August, then went to school what would it take to get into NW? I got a 3.5 from a well respected but not so well known school with a double major completed in 3 years. I'll have my CPA and went on the International Business Institute in undergrad. Is getting in still a pipe dream in my situation? Would I have to ace GMATs and maybe LSATs and have a bomb interview to boot? Just on the Law school side am as qualified as you were? Don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm beggining to get the feeling that back to school will be my most likely option, so trying to get an idea of where to start. (On an aside I like Virgina's JB/MBA program as well, basically I'm showing preferance to a better B-school than law school as that's the field I'll likely be in more).

If there's still a chance I'm game to try, but I understand when it's time to stop going after the prom queen and talk to her friends instead.

Its impossible to say. I had a higher GPA in the Honors program from Michigan, and scored roughly the 90% percentile on my LSATs. So, I by no means, killed my standardized test, but I did well. I think what helped was that I wrote very interesting essays and interviewed well. Not many of their candidates were ski bums, fixing boots, and bagging peaks. In the end, I am sure that helped because when they wanted to diversify their class, I could stand apart from the 10,000 so other applicants that either were consultants or idealistic pussies working for Teach for America or saving the whales.

[ulty_guy]

Yeah, el chup, I hear ya. Probably the biggest thing I struggle with is what to do next. Your path would make that a lot easier. I am in a bit of a purgatory where I know a ton, but I don't really know anything (if that makes any sense). That said, the skills learned on the job are pretty amazing. At heart, I'm a lazy bastard which is why I need that kind of nuts-o environment to get the best out of myself (either that or chucking myself up and down some mountain, all the same really).

As for chicks, def don't worry, tons of 'em in i-banking and they're usually damn smart to boot. Or just go my route and snag the chalet girl on your next corporate ski trip. Have to admit that I didn't expect much outta that one, but we've been 2gether 2 years and still having a blast AND she's a rippin skier. Woohoo!

P.s. Uva sucks (vt 1998), but for b school it's pretty good.

[elchupanebre4]

I hear ya. I end up having to schedule every minute or I find I just waste time (which on occasion is good, but for the most part I'd just watch TV everyday I'll amount to a 35year old well versed in mediocre american sitcoms). I went through college working 40 hours a week and taking 21 units, because I found that if I didn't have a schedule where I had to sack up to make it I'd be screwed.

I find that if I'm put or put myself in the position where I have to do something I get it done everytime without fail, whereas if I just should do something, or it's somewhat optional I'll either not do it or just get by doing the bare minimum. It seems as no matter how hard or easy a class is I'll always get the A- or B+ yet there is a sub-concious machinism in my mind that says once I've worked hard enough for the A- I have to shut off, or if I'm not to the B+ range I have to sack up. Therefore if I put myself in a job where The A- B+ range is still fricken impressive I'll perform, but at a job where the same range is attainable by most I'll do it, but most likely not outperform the norm. It's frustrating to a degree. I guess the ski equivalent is if I'm in a group that's throwing 540's in the park I'll be hitting them as styled as the next guy, but if my group's throwing off sicketer straight airs so will I. Push me and I'll fucking be there, let me just get by and I'll do just that but not much more.

[St. Jerry]

amigo -

check out the investment banking message boards at www.vault.com

I found them helpful when I was looking to get in the business.

Also, it's next to impossible to get into a top bank (other than counting change at a Chase branch or stamping trade tickets) without an ivy or near-ivy degree coming out of undergrad. Your best bet is to get into a top 20 MBA program and plan on moving to NYC after school. And when at school, spend every breathing moment networking to get the i-banking internship.

That's about it.

[HOBA]

I have a lot friends in i-banking (Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Lehman, and Credit Suise) and all of them had an internship with their employers summer prior to starting.

As an Ivy alumni, the internships to the top firms were more competitive than med-school. People decide to be one early (freshman year) and prepare through out college career. So the best options since you are starting late in the game, I would try to get into a good MBA program. Then fight to get an internships with the top firms.

I would try to get a job with a consulting firm now so you can be expose to many different businesses. Then couple years later apply to MBA.

By the way most people underestimate the life style of an i-banker. 90 hrs seems to be a low estimate for a work week. At the internships, my friends average about 100 and spent as much as 120 at the office. Of the 4, three have quit and the one is impossible to stay in touch.

good luck.

[elchupanebre4]

Thanks for the input, about what I was expecting (unfortunatly) as far as employement in a bulge bracket. I was well aware of the time requirements of the job, even if it's only for two years I've determined that for what I want to do it's worth the sacrifice of a social/sleep life. I'm guessing the MBA route is really my only feasible option, I now have to determine what my course is for the next 1.5 years to get into school. It's either...

A. stay at my current job
B. transfer to Big 4
C. Consulting firm (unlikely approach but hadn't really thought of it)
D. find an analyst position somewhere more attainable than a bulge bracket.

All these are on the path to an MBA or JD/MBA so at least I know the general direction I have to head. I guess currently its going to be an approach on what looks best to get into a top 20 or 30 MBA program. It sucks that the school option is either a year and a half or two and a half years out till I begin, but you can't have everything right when you want it, such is life.

It always astounds me the wisdom of the collective. Oddly I'd rather go here for advice before most "conventional" places, even if the advice just points me to the proper conventional source.


Thanks.

[cranked]

All these are on the path to an MBA or JD/MBA so at least I know the general direction I have to head. I guess currently its going to be an approach on what looks best to get into a top 20 or 30 MBA program.

Sorry to say it, but if you want to focus on banking, top 30 won't cut it (unless it is a really hot market and you are an absolute standout). You need to decide where you want to end up (NY, SF, LA, Chicago) and determine if the school you are trying to get into is "target" for that area. A lot of banks do regional recruiting, others to "firm wide" offers. The reality is, b-school rep is solely decided by rankings (a few other factors, but not many). There is no Bar exam to even things out like in law school, so if you want to compete with the students at top 10 programs, you need to be in a top 10 program (though I think all programs in the top ~20 have a pretty comparable classwide intelligence).

That being said, you have the rest of your life to work your a$$ off. Take the next 1.5-2.5 years to pad the resume (Big 4, consulting, etc.) and enjoy life. Same with b-school - enjoy it and, "...quit thinking of the present, like right now, as some minor insignificant preamble to something else".

If you come out as an Associate, you will have nothing in your life except work...it is an enormous sacrafice...don't jump into it now. Enjoy your 20s, work in your 30s if that is what you want to do.

[St. Jerry]

And lastly, are you willing to give up skiing entirely? You better be, or i-banking is not for you. Like going to the gym? Kiss that activity goodby too.

I-bankers don't ski. (at least for the first 5 years in the job).

Maybe they did at one time, but working 80-100 hours/wk leaves no time for skiing.

I-bankers work, and that's it. They are nerds who don't have time for any other interests except making $ (or helping others make $ and getting a small % of that $).

Your time off? That's spent catching up on sleep so you don't have a nervous breakdown during those 80-100 hours spent in your cubicle.

However, there are other areas besides M&A within the bank that can allow for some outside interests, such as sales & trading.

[nealric]

My .02:
If you have no interest in practicing law skip the JD and just get the MBA.