Warranty Rant

[Idris]

Warranty Rant

This is not a rant about some manufacturer not backing up their product more the opposite. People not taking responsibility for their actions, freeloaders etc. This is originally an American trait but it is becoming increasingly popular in Europe. More than one Maggot I’ve met is guilty. Ever wonder why ski equipment costs so much, almost double in the USA compared to Europe. Manufactures have to cover themselves from people returning stuff they have wrecked and want new free stuff.. I am not having a go at anyone who is returning their skis that delam at 20 days but those who thrash them hard for a season or more and wonder why they start to show signs of wear…..rather than driving up the price of skis buy some epoxy and C clamps and fix your planks (also reduces landfill ) if you are not mechanically minded a friendly ski shop and a case of beer fixes most problems. As I look around the morning tram I see many a pair of skis that if their owner had pushed hard they could have had new planks but they are far more interested in the mountains , not the fact they have stress marks in their top sheet or one of their tails now has 5 rivets in it (very popular modification for owners of the wizard and lightning bolt graphic explosive).

[Snow Country]

Originally posted by Idris
This is originally an American trait but it is becoming increasingly popular in Europe.

Ever wonder why ski equipment costs so much, almost double in the USA compared to Europe.

I could not disagree more. If there are more warranty requests in the States verses Europe it is probably because:
a. Americans in general ski harder; and
b. Americans are used to, and expect, quality products that don't fall apart.

Maybe ski equipment is very expensive in your part of Europe. In most regions in the States you can buy brand new ski gear for about 60% off retail if you know where to look.

[Mulletizer]

Originally posted by Snow Country
I could not disagree more. If there are more warranty requests in the States verses Europe it is probably because:
a. Americans in general ski harder; and
b. Americans are used to, and expect, quality products that don't fall apart.

That's the most fucking stupid thing I've read today. Nice work, JONG.

[basom]

Snow Country was the best ski rag of all time! i cant belive its out of circulation!

[verbier61]

idris is totally right
snow country is totally wrong

[iceman]

Just wondering, but how do you Euro guys know how much stuff is fraudulently warranteed here in the States? I live here and I have no idea.

[edg]

Originally posted by Mulletizer
That's the most fucking stupid thing I've read today. Nice work, JONG.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

edg

[zion zig zag]

Originally posted by Mulletizer
That's the most fucking stupid thing I've read today. Nice work, JONG.

sorry, but i think making blanket statements of any kind is pretty fucking stoopid. Cheating by fraudulent use of warranty is an American trait? yeah, thats stoopid.

[Mulletizer]

Originally posted by iceman
Just wondering, but how do you Euro guys know how much stuff is fraudulently warranteed here in the States? I live here and I have no idea.

I can't know, just as Snow Country can not possibly know that Americans ski harder than Europeans or that they have higher expectations from their gear.

I'm not that sure about whether dishonest practices to get new skis is more of an American thing. I know Brits who have "accidentally" rolled the car over their skis, causing a delam towards the end of the season. Similarly, I have heard tales of loads of Scandinavians reporting skis that didn't exist as stolen. In both cases these were not people on the board. It's all wrong.

My opinion differs from Idris's in that, if a company offers a warranty and the ski breaks when within warranty then it is fair to send it back. Hence when I delamed Telepath's Exploders for the nth time (they had aready gone back to the factory and been re-pressed/glued) I think it was fair for him to send them back and get given a pair of Gotamas.

If a company offers a 12 month warranty then their skis should stand up to 12 months use without breaking due to being crap skis, badly made or having manufacturing or design defects. They might wear out - this is different, no one will warranty skis because there is no flex or camer or base left.

Just becasue someone skis more or harder I don't see it as a reason to not warranty a ski that breaks if it's within that period. The warranty is something that is part of the purchase and should indicate that the skis will last that long or that the maker will replace them if they do not. If ski companies calculate this 12month warranty on the "average" number of days they expect an average skier to use their skis then this is their problem IMO. Gear should stand up to the use the warranty indicates.

But breaking skis just to warranty them is still just wrong.

[Mulletizer]

Originally posted by flykdog
sorry, but i think making blanket statements of any kind is pretty fucking stoopid. Cheating by fraudulent use of warranty is an American trait? yeah, thats stoopid.

Remind me when I said that.

[zion zig zag]

Sorry, I originaly took your words as defending what Idris had said. I kinda just took things a little too personal, like i was being called a "dishonest American".

[Mulletizer]

No worries. I didn't have time to write all the stuff I wanted so just responded to the bit that pissed me off. Should have made things clearer, it prolly looked as if I was defending everything Idris said because I did not say I wasn't. Anyway, I think it's clear what I agree with now.

Certainly, over here the US is often portrayed as having a big "money-for-nothing" culture that revolves around litigous (sp?) behaviour. On the basis of that I could easily make the assumption that what Idris is saying is right and truly the case.

However, I don't really have any hard or fast information. Making assumptions that all Americans are thieving scumbags in a place filled with Americans would be a pretty good way to make myself unpopular quickly. As well as pretty dumb. Maybe Tom has more to say about what he has seen.

[natty dread]

Originally posted by Idris
Ever wonder why ski equipment costs so much, almost double in the USA compared to Europe. Manufactures have to cover themselves from people returning stuff they have wrecked and want new free stuff.

I'd like to see some hard numbers supporting this theory dude, because I have a feeling that money spent by manufacturers on marketing/advertising has far more to do with the high price of skis than returns do. Back in the 80s, my dad was part of a group of investors who tried to buy a controlling interest in the north face, when it was being run into the ground by its CEO at the time. That was when lifetime warranties were far less common and they were a selling point that was touted by TNF and distinguished it from many other manufacturers. My dad was looking at ways to cut costs, but found that decreasing the lifetime warranty wasn't one of them--he found that actual return rates of north face gear usually hovered at around 2-3%. This figure may be higher today for some companies, but I don't think by much. Maybe the people we know and ski with know how to work the system better, so we see more of this.

Also there's also the issue of customer loyalty. For example, after 2 years of use, a strap on my kiteboard harness wouldn't buckle anymore. I brought it to Da Kine and within 3 days, they had modified it with their 2004 buckling system for free. I will always buy Da Kine products because of experiences like this. There is incalculable value in having customers for life and I think this value far outweighs the costs of these returns.

Btw my dad's group was outbid by the Japanese--too bad, I'd be hooking you all up with north face if things had worked out.

[Mrs Roo]

True thing. Before I started posting here I didn't even know you could warranty a ski. It's just not a widely accepted practice in the UK. If a ski breaks it's virtually a medal of honour as to how gnarly you are.

[slim]

I really think this thread is silly. Intentionally breaking your skis is one thing but not taking advantage of a company's warranty or return policy is absurd. You're just not getting your money's worth if, while still in your warranty period, you are riveting, repairing, or rebuilding your skis. Expect better workmanship from your ski manufacturers and expect your ski manufacturers to stand by their product. Look at Igneous as an example.

[iceman]

Yeah, the transmission fell out of my car while it was still under warranty, but I felt bad for GM so I paid for a new one myself.

[lph]

I think natty is right on. Warranty, length thereof, and how bomber to build a ski is a sort of a business decision, based on % return, how much more it would cost to build a quality ski, etc...

There was an analogous situation in the medical field when HMO's were starting to expand. Some HMO's decided not to pay for Cat Scans of the brain for headaches, this would save them millions of dollars, however, they realized that a certain small percentage of people would actually turn out to have brain tumors and they would be sued. However, they calculated that the amount paid out in law suits would be considerably less than the amount they would pay for all their patients to get cat scans when they went to their dr. complaining of headaches.

I believe ski companies take a similar approach. They could decrease the amount of warranty returns by building a better product. However, the amount invested in increasing a skis durability would probably far outweigh the amount they spend sending out warranty skis. In addition, as Mrs. Roo said, most people, (with the notable exception of maggots) would probably not think of sending a ski back on warranty if it broke after the initial couple weeks. Not to mention, building a quality ski with a long life would drive up the retail price and also, if skis lasted longer, 'most' people wouldn't have to buy a new pair as frequently.

[Will]

Originally posted by lph

There was an analogous situation in the medical field when HMO's were starting to expand. Some HMO's decided not to pay for Cat Scans of the brain for headaches, this would save them millions of dollars, however, they realized that a certain small percentage of people would actually turn out to have brain tumors and they would be sued. However, they calculated that the amount paid out in law suits would be considerably less than the amount they would pay for all their patients to get cat scans when they went to their dr. complaining of headaches.

[Edward Norton]"A new car built by my company
leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The
rear differential locks up. The car crashes
and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now:
should we initiate a recall? Take the number
of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the
probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the
average out-of-court settlement, C. A times
B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost
of a recall, we don't do one."
[/Edward Norton]

It's the same thinking behind Suzuki dragging out an ass-old lawsuit against Consumer Reports over their review of the Suzuki Samurai. It may be dishonest, but it's cheaper than a recall.

Sometimes (cars and HMOs) we get screwed. Other times (ski warranties, EMS/REI return policies) we benefit.
That said, busting your skis to get the warranty is BS, but if they actually break within the warranty period then you've got a legit claim.

Of course, as Idris pointed out, your "core" rating goes way up if you ski on riveted/repaired skis.

-------------------------------

edit to add: Having worked in a ski shop that dealt with both Euros and Americans I can assure you that Americans were far far quicker to attempt to return their skis. US customers would regularly contact us about warrantying their skis because of core shots and other examples of 'user error'. All we could tell them was what the ski companies told us: "If it's a defect of manufacture (delam for example), it's covered. If you ran the ski into a rock, then it's your own damn fault."

[Snow Country]

Originally posted by Mulletizer

I'm not that sure about whether dishonest practices to get new skis is more of an American thing.

In my experience, there is much greater overall scamming of the ski industry in Europe than in the States. The "employees" et. al. are always passing off free or discounted lodging, tickets, meals, etc. Whether all of this increases the costs for honest skiers and vacationers, I don't know.

And regarding Idris' comment that it "starts with Amercians," the comment seems typical of some european attitudes whereby anything "new" is somehow attributal to the U.S., for better or worse.

[shamrockpow]

Isn't Idris American?

Either way, he has a right to his opinion, but I agree w/Natty. Almost good customer service (of all types including warranty) will pay for themselves in brand loyalty and that's why companies have them. Sure I used to take advantage of TNF program (when they had kick ass products), but it meant I was always buying new stuff from them even if it was a little more expensive...

[pointedem]

Mulletizer quote: That's the most fucking stupid thing I've read today. Nice work, JONG.

HAHAHA!!!!

Well said, hilarious...

[Snow Country]

Originally posted by pointedem
HAHAHA!!!!

Well said, hilarious...

Yes, Mulletizer's a very friendly fellow.
Reminds me of this guy Coco......

[Telepath]

Originally posted by Snow Country
Yes, Mulletizer's a very friendly fellow.
Reminds me of this guy Coco......

Dude, considering that you started out by accusing him (as a european) of skiing less hard than americans and having less expectations from a product (yes, I know you were talking general terms; but as the masses of skiers in your generalizations aren't here to defend themselves I'm glad the mulletman did.) Honestly I think he did rather well by only calling BS on your statement and not yourself. In the light of your statements harshness I'd love to hear more about your "experience" with scamming in Europe etc.

And yeah, I could say I was somewhat provoked too but in all honesty I though the statement in itself was so obviously wrong that I didn't care to comment on it.

(btw. I don't necessarily aggree a 100% with Idris either but believe that the truth is somewhere in between. That said it is a sure thing that I and the people I ski with in Europe normally don't even try to warranty blown skis; even when they blow up after like 2 months or less. Most places skied means so much wear on the skis that sometimes just one day of skiing might means voiding all warranty of the used skis in the future; because of the obvious "wrongful use" when downclimbing rocks and other such fun. Also this hea lead me personally to an attitude towards my skis that for instance makes me point it onto the parking lot pavement in Baker on a pair of Big Daddies that has only been out of the wrapper in like 5 hours.)

[natty dread]

Originally posted by Snow Country
Yes, Mulletizer's a very friendly fellow.
Reminds me of this guy Coco......

I'm not going to be so charitable as telepath tonight...
Post, then smoke crack fucker! I usually don't engage in the name-calling, but you sir are a moron. You come here, post 12 times with stupid, unsupportable observations that "americans in general ski harder" than the euros and that euros don't really care about the quality of their gear, then you diss one of the nicest, rippinest, most intelligent voices on this board. A guy with whom I drank beer and shared conversation in la grave and who treated me like a brutha from the moment I met him.
If you're going to post inane shit, expect responses like mulletizer's--don't get all huffy like a little bitch.
Oh and please please, share with us where you can get gear 60% off retail-- I just don't have the first clue "where to look." I'm so tired of paying $750 for my pocket rockets...

[Idris]

Uh oh, looks like I’ve ruffled a few feathers and stepped on a few toes…I’m not going to apologise for my post but I will try and justify it.

I decided to write this after being upset by discussions I had with 2 different groups of visiting Americans. Both were hardcore skiers, but not ski bums. Both were trying to work out how they could scam a free pair of skis to replace either their current skis or other parts of their quiver. They had cosmetic maybe warrantable damage to their skis, but also had obvious impact damage on their parts of their skis. In both cases they had skied plenty of days on their skis to justify the price paid….these are folk who can afford to buy skis at full retail without it hurting their budget, it just doesn’t sit right with me when I will spend time and effort replacing blown edges on friends skis so they can keep skiing as they are not in a position to buy another second had pair of skis.

As for manufacturers standing behind their products. The Volkl dealers here have been very good about replacing delaminated explosives that didn’t show signs of rock hopping. The embarrassed that so many fell apart, hoping that returning to the previous construction method (and tip shape had something to do with it also) solves the problem. Also they have replaced lots of 03 Gotoma’s with 04’s….haven’t seen any of the original graphic ones in the shops since January.

Most consumer based trends, good or bad, mainly start in worlds largest consumer market…the USA and then move elsewhere…this used to take a decade or more , but sometimes it now only takes a few months…having lived on both sides of the pond I’ve seen plenty of this happen.

When talking to reps for the local ski companies (not in a shop or a bar). They complain the North America is the toughest market…the level of customer service, more the no quibble rather than percentage of returns, expected is so much higher than here …Sponsored athletes expect a lot more in NA than in Europe …and yes they do charge more to compensate….Salamon Lab Rocket is about 700 here and lists for 1250 in the USA, Rossignol B2 is 450 instead of 700!

I am from Wales (yes part of the UK) but I have lived in North America for more than 40% of the last decade.

I will argue with one response though

SC

a. Americans in general ski harder; and

Your average skier does not…spend a season on more in both places and you’ll see!

b. Americans are used to, and expect, quality products that don't fall apart

The worst POS I’ve ever owned were Ford, GM and Chrysler products…in the USA…that said my Leatherman is undoubtedly the best made and designed multi tool I’ve ever seen or used, and I’ve yet to find fault (at lest on the quality side) with my Maglite
Maybe ski equipment is very expensive in your part of Europe. In most regions in the States you can buy brand new ski gear for about 60% off retail if you know where to look.

No here in Chamonix it’s generally 10-20% less than anywhere else in Europe, but skis are a much larger part of our disposable income than in the USA.


Natty I was also impressed by Da kine’s quick response, pity their euro distributors are not in the same league.