What to do when you are caught - practical advice

[upallnight]

saw this thread after having a conversation about this paper/diagram earlier this morning and figured i'd do a quick post as the interaction was worth sharing.

I find the idea that someone actually caught in a slide would know where the edge of it is (and even if they did at first would they know after the first, second, or third time they got flipped/spun?) and be able to 'swim' toward it pretty unrealistic.

it sure would be possible to get spun around, but it also seems reasonable for people to have a basic sense of direction (i.e., they'd know they are moving downslope and could reasonable sense left/right. this is also a good argument for having a plan before starting a descent. there's no substitute for that. (also noteworthy: if you're not wearing a helmet -- or even if you are - one could take a shot to the head and lose not only a sense of direction but also all ability to fight the slide.)

Don't know how many people, even if they felt they had fully internalized what to do, would be able to follow most of the instructions on that chart. And it's not really something where you can practice truly simulating what you'd be going through.

i think the point is sharing knowledge. we hope never to have to call upon it, but if you've studied this, maybe -- just maybe -- something will help you out with things hit the fan.

i was out for a hike in the local backcountry and ran into rod newcomb. a brief conversation about alaska led to a short conversation about theo. unsolicited, rod mentioned that he felt this work in particular was incredibly important in terms of understanding the stages of slides and what to do in each.

i'm not saying you or anyone in this thread should feel the same way, but rod's opinion is one i place quite a bit of stock in -- particularly when he feels something has broken new ground in the industry.

I'd say get people to know that they'll think first about trying to stay on top, swimming up if under, and forming an air pocket and reaching for the surface at the end. If you could get people to do that during the panic of being caught I think that would be the best you could hope for.

it seems to me a little arbitrary that you decided on 4 things to remember. why not 3? why not 5?

from conversations with theo, there seems to be time at the start when one can make a decision that could mean not geting caught -- or getting out quickly as blocks are forming. again, this MAY not apply to all situations, but i tend to think our brains are pretty amazing in times of crisis in terms of accessing information. who knows what kicks in?

I'm assuming that basically everyone more or less instinctively tries to ski out to the side or a safe zone when it starts, also. You can teach things to do before someone is really caught, but once you're off your skis and going for the ride I think everything changes.

what was noteworthy in theo's paper is that, yes, everyone is taught to "swim" -- but what is not taught is how to swim/move during different segments and what course to take.

if you or the next guy doesn't get anything out of this, you're no worse off. on the other hand, it could help.

lots of people in crises speak of time slowing down. i've experienced this in some areas. perhaps in a slide this time could be all that's needed to implement one of these techniques.

i respect your opinion but wanted to share the story and my thoughts.

[WARY]

You may want to consider a different approach if you are caught in an avalanche and are wearing an avalanche air bag (AAB). Although still rare, avalanche air bags are becoming more popular and people wearing them exhibit different characteristics inside of avalanches than victims not wearing them.

Having said that, everything about to be stated here is based on research with life sized test dummies, and not human victims.

Test dummies harnessed to AABs tend to be passed by the leading edge of the slide and are usually found 2/3 to 4/5 of the way downhill of the total distance travelled by the avalanche, and never travel the full slide path. Unless the AAB is destroyed by a rock or tree, the avalanche will not be able to bury the AAB as long as the avalanche continues significant movement. Once the avalanche begins to slow, smaller eddies and secondary avalanches may begin to partially or fully bury the AAB and the victim, and this is the point in the avalanche where a victim should begin to fight for the surface. If you are attached to an AAB any effort you expend in the beginning and middle of the avalanche is wasted energy, and is better used at the bitter end of the slide, in our opinion.

Test dummies harnessed to avalanche air bags also tend towards the edges or flanks of the avalanches. Most are found within a few meters of the edges of avalanches that can measure hundreds of meters across. This reduces the chance of burial by secondary avalanches, and puts the victim in the thinnest portion of the avalanche, as opposed to the deeper snow in the middle of the avalanche.

[Dexter Rutecki]

it seems to me a little arbitrary that you decided on 4 things to remember. why not 3? why not 5?

It is a little arbitrary, but I picked four because it's one more thing than I can think about when ski racing--so maybe I should've stuck with three. Maybe there's some reason that's a bad analogy, but I've found that when running gates and thinking about technique the greatest number of things I've ever been able to keep in my head during a run is three.

So my feeling is that if, while being swept into an avalanche, you could keep even three or four of these points in your head you'd be ahead of the game. Personally I'd feel lucky to keep one or two in mind.

That said, I still think it would be very tough to remain oriented while also figuring where exactly in the slide you are and also carrying out the tasks on the chart. If there were a way to practice you could make it easier, but I just wouldn't count on being able to stick to the outlined process in the panic of a real slide.

[upallnight]

...

Have you submitted any of your research for consideration @ the 2010 session of ISSW?

Hope there is something objective that can be discussed amongst professionals in the field (truly).

[WARY]

Working on that.

[genniechan]

Pretty good post.

[komo]

Bump with updated link to the article

http://www.fsavalanche.com/NAC/techP...eltMeiners.pdf

Also, I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so it's worth highlighting that in the article they state these guidelines are for SOFT SLAB avalanches. What's the wisdom for HS/AS or AR/D2,3,4 and R2,3,4?

[NAKsloChinoMalo]

Good reading. thanks for the new link.

[totaliboard]

people are taught to swim

it was my first instinct when i got hit with a wet slab. couldnt just claw my way out or self-arrest, its like a cement river. i think swimming can be more effective than fighting as long as youre not terrain trapped.

[icelanticskier]

i just went with the flow calmly while piercing my lips tightly and spitting to keep snow out. then once i ditched a ski i breast stroked hard up and out. was completely under for a good 6-800 feet. kinda crazy. luckily came out 100% unscathed. not even a scratch or pulled muscle or any soreness whatsoever. kept on skiing.........in a different area.

do whatcha gotta do.

rog