looking for a boat...

I just spent a week at Otter Bar - had a fucking amazing time and somehow they managed to convince my non-adrenaline junky family to like kayaking. Weird. Had a ridiculous group of instructors - Graham Charles, Claire and Dave Ritchie, and Zak Shaw, who were absolutely fantastic. Can't recommend it enough.

In any case, I want a boat now. Not sure how often I'll get to use it in New Haven with sailing every weekend, but a class or six can be skipped in spring/fall for river trips I think. In any case, I'm 5'10'', 160, good physical condition. I paddled a Mamba 8.0 for most of the time at Otter Bar, a Lil'Joe on a NOLS trip, and a Pyranha i4 which I found a bit squirrelly (and ended up destroying my right eyebrow with... which is the subject of another thread and an early xmas present of as nice a helmet as I'd like).

They suggested I look for a boat that specifically isn't a playboat, even though that's what I want to get into, because they said that starting to paddle a playboat teaches bad habits from the outset... Instead they suggested something like a Pyranha 230 or a Redline. Before this, I had been looking at the LL CR125 or a Jackson Fun (regular size), which seem to be both river-runner/playboat hybrids leaning towards the playing side. The true playboat I paddled in flat water - the Agent 6.2 - felt really really weird and a bit hard to roll, even though it was fun to stand it on its nose (ender? what's this called?) While I absolutely love to surf and fuck around in waves, I'm not good, won't get a chance to do a ton of paddling in college, and will probably spend most of my time actually running rivers as opposed to park & playing at least to start.

Of course, the intelligent thing at this point would be to buy a helmet, spray skirt, paddle, etc, and then if I still have any of my paycheck left over, rent a boat, but this shit is all impulse driven anyway.

What say ye?

unless you will have no vocation and be on vacation for the rest of your life it's unlikely you will be able to sail, surf, ski and kayak

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Originally Posted by seldon

They suggested I look for a boat that specifically isn't a playboat, even though that's what I want to get into, because they said that starting to paddle a playboat teaches bad habits from the outset...

What say ye?

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I don't buy it. Otter Bar does some things really well. And is a major fun experience. But IMO, historically, many of their regular adult class instructors have been pretty stuck in the past on this. This is precisely the boating version of some of the epic/realskiers folks who believe that fatter skis will "teach you bad habits" and will prevent you from really learning to ski. It is an opinion I strongly disagree with.

I'm not saying that you need, or even want, an uber-playboat. But getting something without significant edges will limit your understanding of how to use a modern boat. Especially if you aspire to playboating. You want to learn to use all your edges, rocker, etc. And to use them the right way. A Jackson Fun series strikes me pretty favorably for what you say you want to do.

cloudpeak & I deliberately started the kids in edgy boats. And made sure they got a feel for those edges. We got a lot of crap for it way back then. Watching them progress though, it was clearly the right thing to do.

http://idisk.mac.com/zonkos/Public/e...2041447136.jpg

http://idisk.mac.com/zonkos/Public/e...2041447076.jpg

http://idisk.mac.com/zonkos/Public/e...2041447617.jpg

Needless to say, 6 or so years after those pics were taken, they are on things a wee bit bigger than that little riffle - with solid technique and boat control...

(disclaimer: it's been over a year since I've even been in a boat & I don't boat worth a damn at this point anyway -- but boating occupies a whole bunch of family time & energy...)

Many good opinions in this thread:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=86477

and playboats are way more fun!

You can't go wrong with the 2007 Fun Series. Although it is a little more forgiving than the All Star, you can still rip up the play moves in it as well(EJ used it to win 2006 Team Trials). It is definitely the best beginner boat on the market. You can also get a 2005 Fun new for $600.

Another bonus of the Jackson boats is that the outfitting will be more comfortable than anything else you will find.

I love Otter Bar, I learned to boat at their kid's camp 6 years ago when I was 12. I do have to disagree with their logic on this one though. I think that spending too much time in a creeker will teach bad habits to beginners because they you can just point em downstream and punch through everything. In a playboat or semi-play boat you will learn to use your edges more and have a lot more manuverability.

And as my dad proved with those...gnarly...pics:smile: , my brother and I started out in play boats.

David Spiegel
Team Jackson Kayak

ktw,
what's the difference between a 2007 and a 2005 fun? I hear alot about the "new fun" - how exactly did they change it?

Well, I can't give all of the exact details because I'm not an engineer but I can still describe a bunch of it.

First of all, the new version of the Fun is actually based on a slightly longer version of the All Star's hull. This hull is more gradually rockered than the 2005 version and is also slightly longer and more stable. In addidition to the stability, because it is actually a real play boat hull, the 2007 version is much more palyful than the old one, much faster on a wave, and looser (easier to spin).

They also changed the way that the volume is distributed, make the ends more slicey (easier to learn cartwheels and double pumps).

I have paddled both versions of the boats and all I can say is that the 2007 Fun has managed to be both more stable and more playful than its predecessor.

That said, the 2005 Fun is still a great boat and if you want to save $400 on your first kayak while still getting a new and pretty modern boat, you can't go wrong.

In the end, I don't think you would go wrong with either one but if you have the cash to throw down for it, the 2007 Fun will let you push your boating to the next level a lot faster.

Also, you can check out the exact specs on each one if you go to the website:
2005 Fun: http://jacksonkayak.com/kayaks/produ...ct=classicfuns
2007 Fun: http://jacksonkayak.com/kayaks/produ...duct=funseries

David Spiegel
Team Jackson Kayak

As an owner of the CR125, I'm a bit biased towards that boat. I'm on the upper end of the weight range of it, so it's a great playboat for me. I am also 6"2 and can't really fit in the Ronin, so it's also the only Liquid Logic option for me. I love it. It took some getting used to (what boat doesn't), but now I love it. Super fast, responsive, easy to side surf and pretty forgiving (compared to the Vision).
I've also paddled the 4Fun, which fit me well, but I think if I owned one, I would only use the HappyFeet on long trips...foam for just playboating. I like to have my feet pretty tight and I just can't get that with the HappyFeet. Aside from that, I think the jacksons are great boats. I felt like it was somewhere between my CR and my old Big EZ. They're light, responsive, not quite as fast as my CR, but close. A little more stable, but that also means a little less playful. They're also the driest boats on the market, but my CR is pretty darn dry as well. I definately think the CR is a better hole boat, but the Jackson is a little more conducive to a learner.

So in the end, I'd say you can't really go wrong with either...just demo demo demo. See which one FEELS better to you and go with that one.

The trick with the happy feet is that there are two tubes going into two different bags.

A lot of people make the mistake of going straight to the tube that you can blow into and blowing it up, meaning that you have your feel on a big air bag. This isn't good because it squishes around and doesn't make a tight fit.

What you actually want to do is this:

1) Get in your boat annd place your feet on the happy feet.
2) Take the tube that you can blow into but instead of blowing air in, suck all the air out. This will make the forward air bag (the on closer to you, which is actually a bean bag) back compact in the shape of your feet. Now, you have a hard bulkhead made of of a bean bag that is molded to your feet.
3) This is where the second tube comes in, the one with the bulb. Squeeze the bulb and start to fill the second airbag (the one further from you) with air. This will push the bean bag closer to you.

Essentially, the goal of the happy feet is not to be an airbag to place your feet on. Instead, it is a hard bulkhead, molded to your feet, that can be moved forward and backwards in the boat.

Hope that helps for anyone who was confused by them,

David Spiegel
Team Jackson Kayak

I also agree that the Fun series sounds like a boat you should demo. I would suggest the 07 over the classic series though. Yes, the classics are cheaper, but they are made from a cheaper plastic (Linear vs cross-link) and don't come with some of the outfitting such as the happy feet ($60). Once you take into account those added expenses and the redesigned boats the 07 is well worth the extra coin. You also mentioned that you enjoy bow stalls which are much easier to perform in the new Funs vs the classic Fun due to the volume distribution.

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Originally Posted by hialtitude

Yes, the classics are cheaper, but they are made from a cheaper plastic (Linear vs cross-link) and don't come with some of the outfitting such as the happy feet ($60).

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I am pretty sure no one is using cross link anymore, and the Happy Feet is the most overrated outfitting gimmick ever.

According to a rep:

"the 07 boats are crosslink and the classic boats will be linear as soon as we run through the crosslink classic boats we have left in inventory. "

brad@jacksonkayak.com

I personally like the happy feet although they take time to fuck around with. It seems like people love or hate them, I fall into the former catagory.

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Originally Posted by hialtitude

According to a rep:

"the 07 boats are crosslink and the classic boats will be linear as soon as we run through the crosslink classic boats we have left in inventory. "

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My bad, just searched their site, you are right.

That's cool, makes me want an All Star even worse. :D

No worries,
I would like a new Super Star myself but I am shopping for a creek boat at the moment. I have little experience creeking but have friends who do and I would like to go in that direction. I am looking at the Burn, Jefe, and a few others. What are your thoughts?

Sorry for the hijack, but this is a thread on boat suggestions.

I paddle a Salto. I got it for the sole reason that it is at least twice as bomber as any other brand (except Prijon, but the Embudo isn't that great, IMO). I have learned to love it and if/when it breaks I will definitely be buying another.

A lot of people I know have Burns, but I question the durability. In any case, as long as you get a "modern" creek boat, I don't think you can go wrong. I think they are a little different than a playboat in that you should just get one, learn it, and paddle it till it breaks. There is no good reason to 'upgrade' creek boats on a regular basis.

edit: if you have friends in Missoula who are creekboaters, there is a pretty good chance I know them.

I have heard similar thoughts on adapting to a given creek boat and that is fine with me. I intend to get one soon so that I can get comfortable with it as much as possible before next spring. Things are already getting stale running the gorge lately despite the acquisition of some new hand paddles to keep it interesting.

I have been trying to gather ideas on begining/intro creek runs in the area and have come up with: N. Fork Blackfoot, Rock Creek (Darby area), S. Fork Clearwater (Mickey Mouse), and lower Fish Creek to Lochsa (already ran this).

Any suggestions on other obvious runs I am missing? I would bet that you do know my boating friends since the community seems to be so tight knit around here.

The Jefe is a great boat, but you have to be aggressive with it. It doesn't move itself. It stays on line very well, but that doesn't mean that you won't be going backwards or sideways while "on line", unless you're aggressive with it.

The Burn is a little easier to get used to if you're coming from a playboat back ground because of the edges. You can carve it like a playboat, unlike the Jefe. If you get surfed in a hole, you're chances of getting windowshaded are greater in the Burn than the Jefe. But aside from that, both boats have similar characteristics as far as boofing, resurfacing and the like. If you're planning on going out and stomping 20+ foot waterfalls, the Jefe's displacement hull is definately going to be a less forgiving landing, but it sounds like you're a ways from that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hialtitude

Things are already getting stale running the gorge lately despite the acquisition of some new hand paddles to keep it interesting.

I have been trying to gather ideas on begining/intro creek runs in the area and have come up with: N. Fork Blackfoot, Rock Creek (Darby area), S. Fork Clearwater (Mickey Mouse), and lower Fish Creek to Lochsa (already ran this).

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That's a pretty decent list of beginner creek runs. It's tough, because there isn't much class IV creekboating around here, it's mostly either playboat runs or class V.

Rock Creek out of Lake Como is jacked with wood to the point it's not really worth it right now. Lost Horse has some decent drops to practice on if you don't mind walking a bunch of wood. Upper Kootenai (take out above skinny hips/the falls) has a bunch of sweet class III/IV drops with cool technical moves. Lots of people make the lower gorge their first real creek and there are definitely some stories of carnage by up and coming Missoula boaters...but you gotta start somewhere and it's cleaner this year than it has been in awhile.

There is some stuff you can do on the gorge to practice, like the twisty slot move in the drop below Fang on river left, catching the eddy behind the rock at Tumbleweed from both sides, threading the holes in the center at the top of Fang and catching the eddy, etc.

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Originally Posted by Storm11

If you're planning on going out and stomping 20+ foot waterfalls, the Jefe's displacement hull is definately going to be a less forgiving landing, but it sounds like you're a ways from that.

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I think you meant to say that a displacement hull is MORE forgiving on big landings, right?

Thanks for the info folks, keep it coming. How about the Rocker? I am 6' 190lb and hear the mega is huge. Any truth to the "hole bait" rumor?

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

the twisty slot move in the drop below Fang on river left, catching the eddy behind the rock at Tumbleweed from both sides, threading the holes in the center at the top of Fang and catching the eddy, etc.

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I have pretty much got that list dialed and have 20+ days on the gorge this season. I ran the Middle Fork of the Flathead Wilderness section earlier in the year which was what got me interested in more expedition style boating. Before that it has been playboating around Western MT and Idaho.

That being said, I am aware of my ablities and for that matter, lack of abilities in a kayak and try to follow better boaters around as much as possible. I just want to have a solid progression into creeking before jumping into ze gnar.

Yes, I meant more forgiving.

The Rocker is a VERY round boat. Very round boats tend to be hole bait. Smaller creekers (CFS, Ammo, SCUD, etc) also tend to be hole bait. Longer, pointier boats (the LL Gus is the first thing that comes to mind) punch through stuff better, but are a bitch to get back on track once you've blown your line. Most new creekers are somewhere in between.

That being said, theres a lot of very good paddlers out there (the entire No Big Names crew for one) who are paddling Rockers and stomping huge shit.
The only way to know what's right for you is to try different boats. Look at the design of the boat, try to pay attention as to how that design affects the performance of the boat, then choose the right boat based on how it feels and performs.

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Originally Posted by Storm11

The Jefe is a great boat, but you have to be aggressive with it. It doesn't move itself. It stays on line very well, but that doesn't mean that you won't be going backwards or sideways while "on line", unless you're aggressive with it.

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Got that right. When I had never paddled a real creekboat, I wanted to "borrow a creek boat" for a race, somebody loaned me a Jefe. The Jefe decided it liked to go sideways and backwards a lot and also catch eddies on its on. It takes some getting used to (as will any creekboat).

My creekboat is a Mystic and I would say its about halfway between a burn and something like a jefe or rocker. Not real edgy, but not too round either.

I tried the SCUD route, pretty much useless.

To the first question on this thread:
a river/ play boat is a great compromise for your needs, particularly if you are only going to paddle occasionally. I happen to own a CR125 and really like it. I have paddled Liquidlogic boats for 4 years now and the outfitting has never let me down. Its darn comfy and forgiving, and you can still wavewheel and squirt, you just have to rely more on technique than brute strength. You my also look into the Pyranha Recoil, seems like another great river/play boat. I would agree with the Jackson=overrated post. Look at Jackson outfitting that is three years old and you'll know why, and as far as "dry" is concerned, your boat is only as dry as your sprayskirt, I watch people in Jackson boats sponge out just as much water as anyone else.

Second Part: to the guy looking for a creek boat, check out the Fluid solo, large.
Fantastic craft and extra stout. Has recessed rails for when you need them and is a hole buster despite its 8 foot length. I still paddle a huck, but was really impressed by the solo.

Shortbus-

First of all, the Recoil is much less of a play boat than others in its class and is much closer to the Ammo than you might think.

Second, how is Jackson overrated? The boats are the best on the market. The plastic is higher quality and longer lasting, the outfitting is more comfortable and more easily adjusted, and they perform excelently.

As for how dry they are; I have never once sponged out my All Star. Not once.

The number of paddlers I've seen walking around with abbrasions and burns on their lower backs from sitting against the overly-stiff LL backband is staggering. Two of my friends have huge scars on their backs from having paddled Visions.

David Spiegel
Team JK

Edit: Just one more thing, how can you say that Jacksons are over rated because of outfitting from 3 years ago? All the outfitting is way different now than it was in the first generation of Jackson boats. I don't think you can judge the new boats based on looking at a boat from 3 years ago.

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Originally Posted by shortbus

I would agree with the Jackson=overrated post. Look at Jackson outfitting that is three years old and you'll know why, and as far as "dry" is concerned, your boat is only as dry as your sprayskirt, I watch people in Jackson boats sponge out just as much water as anyone else.

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Jackson boats are the driest out there. Period. I've owned Dagger, WS, and now have a Fun. I can paddle a 10 mile run, play all the way down the river, have to roll 30 times, and won't even have enough water in my boat to sponge out at the end. They ARE that dry. My buddy, who paddles a LL, will have to stop at least two or three times to drain his boat.

As far as the outfitting, I have an '04 Fun and haven't had any problems. Nothing has broken(I have the ratchet backband) and I stay snug and in place. I dunno, I've heard people having problems, but mine has treated me well.

The whole dry boat thing is a load of bullshit.

I have paddled Dagger, Eskimo, Jackson, Wavesport and Riot boats that were all 100% dry. It depends hugely on your sprayskirt and also on IF YOUR BOLTS ARE TIGHT.

I have heard people complain about wet boats and upon cursory inspection it is obvious that their boat just needs 5 minutes of maintenance.

This argument is tired and dumb.

Also, outfitting is largely irrelevant. An evening with some minicell, a surform, a bottle of weldwood contact cement and a six pack of beer will give awesome outfitting and increased comfort. Gimmick outfitting is dumb, though I admit I am partial to the whole Jackson rope 'n' cleat thing.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

The whole dry boat thing is a load of bullshit.

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I'm speaking from my experience and I know alot of paddlers who will agree. There's definitely some truth to it. But hey, to each his own.

Maybe I am beating a dead horse here, but Jackson boats are made to be user friendly. You can achieve boat comfort as RootSkier says with minicell and a little time but Jackson outfitting delivers comfort "right out of the box" and that is what appeals to newbies and people who don't want to spend the time shaving and gluing foam.

As far as the dryness goes, I paddle a 4Fun and yeah it was dry. I ripped my skirt this season and bought a new Snapdragon and gues what, not so dry anymore. My point is that there are a lot of variables that go into keeping water out of your cockpit.

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Originally Posted by cmsummit

I'm speaking from my experience and I know alot of paddlers who will agree. There's definitely some truth to it. But hey, to each his own.

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Your experience that your Jackson boat is dry? Big deal. I had an Ultrafuge that I could paddle 15 miles of the Lochsa in and NOT A DROP of water would enter.
My friend had one that wasn't so dry...because he was lazy and wouldn't tighten the seat bolts.

What is your point?

edit: just so you all know, I have paddled an All Star and was amazed by how great it paddled. Definitely a sweet boat. I want one. But the dryness is nothing special.

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Originally Posted by RootSkier

What is your point?

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Pretty simple formula really.

Given that you have a spray skirt that fits well: no holes in hull = better chance that your boat will stay dry. No maintenance required, no bolt seals/gaskets to worry about.

I'm not saying that other individual boats of different brands can't be drier, but EJ has designed a boat that has one less way that water can leak into the boat.

Does this make Jackson an overall drier brand of kayak, without any maintenance involved? I think so.

edit: Sounds like you had good luck with your 'fuge, I had one that leaked like a sieve(and yes, I was pretty anal about making sure the bolts were tight). and yes, this has been beaten' like a dead horse.;)